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Author Topic: Alpa and a digital back..?  (Read 19502 times)

pixjohn

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Alpa and a digital back..?
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2007, 12:40:12 pm »

Why would you want to change to the alpa over the Cambo? Would it be worth the expense?

 
Quote
Maarten:

You should really consider very seriously a Phase One P25+ or 45+.  Phase wins hands down on long exposures and if you're shooting interiors or night or dusk you'll want exposures longer than 30 seconds. 

Workflow is certainly a consideration.  While Phase is very slow in getting their new v4 out, it will worth waiting for I'm sure.

Just my 2 cents.

Cambo Wide DS
24xl
35xl
47xl
58xl
72xl
90
Phase P45+ (upgraded from a P25)

Thinking of switching to Alpa.
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pixjohn

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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2007, 12:53:30 pm »

One small advantage to shooting tethered with the Leaf back is having a finished image. With leaf you can upload the gain file to correct color shift  and lens falloff to the camera back. The work flow  needs to be fixed by Leaf, but when you have a client on set or you are using lighting you   can see the final images as you shoot.
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meurten

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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2007, 01:13:46 pm »

It's not getting easier.....
I Spoke to a Phase One salesman today and I am going to test one next week on a job.
A P25 refurbished is affordable and very interesting.
He told me on the subject of whiteref. (LCC) files that it's not nessesary to shoot it everytime just as long as you have one with the same camera adjustments and F-stop.
Basically he said you can have an archive of all the settings and that's enough..?

I'd love to be able to test a Sinar side by side, and will phone the distributor to see if it's possible I am getting curious about the emotion and the Brumbear software!
Although I am a little anxious about buying a back and noy really knowing how the new software will turn out? the new C4 ( beta looks good workflowwise) and the new exposure ( is there an beta somewhere on the net?
Something Ericstaud said some good words about.
It has to work now, not in the future..

Rainer.. those shots look really good!
They have a lovelycrispy tone in the blacks and grays.
I'm still thinking about the max exposure.
For assignments it will be enough, the problem is some of my free work.
It used to need longer times than 30 sec. but I will try nightshots next week.

My preferred lens on the Alpa to be would be a 35mm, I am not a big fan of even wider lenses and only use them when a cunstomer especially wants it, which  happenend only once.

ericstaud

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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2007, 01:33:44 pm »

Quote
Hi everyone, great and helpfull reply's !


Erick I am not sure what you mean with this sentence? Do you mean to say that it is a temptation to do everything in Lightroom, and therefore forget the good stuff that LC11 has to offer to make the RAW converting better?


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When I worked with the Aptus22 there were virtually no color casts.  A file shot tethered or to CF card could be opened and converted in LC8, LC11, ACR, Lightroom, Aperture, Raw Developer, and so on.... with no preliminary conversion or correction.  The back can be used tethered with the current software as well very easily.

The Phase LCC solution only applies corrections to the output files, the RAWs are never touched.  Phase one RAW files shot on an Alpa or similar cannot be processed in any software other than Caputure One Pro.  The new Capture One Pro 4 will possibly have the ability to output DNG files with the LCC applied and make it possible to use other software, but that is still on theory.  I expect to see C1 Pro v4 by 2015 (Although Phase says it will be out next spring).

Many months ago the DNG files that were output by the Brumbaer converter could not be processed in the Sinar capture software.  So, an investment in the Sinar back for architecture shooting may mean that you don't use the Sinar software, but instead choose between other RAW converters.  I think this is changing soon, but I don't know if that in 2 weeks soon, or in 18 months soon.  Most of the commercial architecture photographers I know work tethered to a laptop.  Although I can work by myself just viewing the back of the camera, I prefer to show the architect, art director, magazine editor, or prop stylist the images on a computer screen.
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ericstaud

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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2007, 01:41:48 pm »

Here is 20 minutes in the middle of the night with the P45. Not that useful for most commercial work, but for the personal stuff on your site I think it is invaluable...

[attachment=3720:attachment]
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rainer_v

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« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2007, 07:55:30 pm »

Quote
When I worked with the Aptus22 there were virtually no color casts.  A file shot tethered or to CF card could be opened and converted in LC8, LC11, ACR, Lightroom, Aperture, Raw Developer, and so on.... with no preliminary conversion or correction.  The back can be used tethered with the current software as well very easily.

The Phase LCC solution only applies corrections to the output files, the RAWs are never touched.  Phase one RAW files shot on an Alpa or similar cannot be processed in any software other than Caputure One Pro.  The new Capture One Pro 4 will possibly have the ability to output DNG files with the LCC applied and make it possible to use other software, but that is still on theory.  I expect to see C1 Pro v4 by 2015 (Although Phase says it will be out next spring).

Many months ago the DNG files that were output by the Brumbaer converter could not be processed in the Sinar capture software.  So, an investment in the Sinar back for architecture shooting may mean that you don't use the Sinar software, but instead choose between other RAW converters.  I think this is changing soon, but I don't know if that in 2 weeks soon, or in 18 months soon.  Most of the commercial architecture photographers I know work tethered to a laptop.  Although I can work by myself just viewing the back of the camera, I prefer to show the architect, art director, magazine editor, or prop stylist the images on a computer screen.
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stunning your long time exposure, but it looks to me as if there would be color shift from left to rigth. something looks strange about the colors, maybe its just me.
for noise i would appreciate to see a 100% crop of it, its possible? but its clear hat the phase backs do a great job with long time exposures.
i did also some fullmoon shots and they have an amazing atmosphere,- but i used the canon for it. do you have to wait  20 minutes after the exposure for the black reference shot if you use the PO?

about the dalsa 22: in the time i was working only with the eMotion22 i didnt used white references,- although now i see that this back looks even better as it did before, if i apply the white reference to the dalsa22 also.

yes,- i forgot to work with capture and i dont see a reason why i should do it. lightroom, photoshop or iridient have so amazing raw converters that i dont care at all if i can open my dng files in capture software.

funny ... all architecture photographers i know mostly work untethered,- at least for exteriors. some work tethered for interiors, as i do sometimes too,- but really sometimes. you do the same, eric as you describe it, isnt it?

and yes... thats theory that the white references can work if you one time have shot them, stored them in a "white file bank"  and than you apply them to your shots which you do later. in fact you have to write down in this case every millimeter of movements and which aperture you used .... its much more work than to shoot a new lcc shot and apply it. and soon you will see also that this method sometimes works and sometimes not good enough.

although with the aptus22 or the emotion22 there is no urgent need to shoot white files, with the P25 it is. as far i know this back shows extreme color shifts with movements.

[attachment=3726:attachment]
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 06:00:43 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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rainer_v

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« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2007, 08:29:58 pm »

Quote
It's not getting easier.....
I Spoke to a Phase One salesman today and I am going to test one next week on a job.
A P25 refurbished is affordable and very interesting.
He told me on the subject of whiteref. (LCC) files that it's not nessesary to shoot it everytime just as long as you have one with the same camera adjustments and F-stop.
Basically he said you can have an archive of all the settings and that's enough..?

I'd love to be able to test a Sinar side by side, and will phone the distributor to see if it's possible I am getting curious about the emotion and the Brumbear software!
Although I am a little anxious about buying a back and noy really knowing how the new software will turn out? the new C4 ( beta looks good workflowwise) and the new exposure ( is there an beta somewhere on the net?
Something Ericstaud said some good words about.
It has to work now, not in the future..

Rainer.. those shots look really good!
They have a lovelycrispy tone in the blacks and grays.
I'm still thinking about the max exposure.
For assignments it will be enough, the problem is some of my free work.
It used to need longer times than 30 sec. but I will try nightshots next week.

My preferred lens on the Alpa to be would be a 35mm, I am not a big fan of even wider lenses and only use them when a cunstomer especially wants it, which  happenend only once.
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if you dont have already the lens i would recommend the rodenstock 35HR. its not so expensive than the 28HR but exactly the same  quality. no problem to use it at f4 without center.
movements are app. 12mm. this sounds little, but in fact the rodenstock35 digital and the schneider 35XL ( i think they are similar performers with an edge for the schneider ) allow more movements, but over 15mm shift they are not very sharp anymore. i dont like this and returned my 35 digital rodenstock and exchanged it to the HR.
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ericstaud

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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2007, 09:18:48 pm »

Hi Rainer,

Quote
stunning your long time exposure, but it looks to me as if there would be color shift from left to rigth. something looks strange about the colors, maybe its just me.
for noise i would appreciate to see a 100% crop of it, its possible? but its clear hat the phase backs do a great job with long time exposures.
i did also some fullmoon shots and they have an amazing atmosphere,- but i used the canon for it. do you have to wait  20 minutes after the exposure for the black reference shot if you use the PO?

O.K..... You caught me.  I was in a hurry and processed that file in ACR, so no LCC was available to correct the casts.  I will post a crop later tonight.  I did push it +1 in ACR to get the whites white, but I think it will still look pretty good.  I don't have better samples, because night photography is not really a hobby.  And yes, the Black reference is always the same length of the exposure.

Quote
funny ... all architecture photographers i know mostly work untethered,- at least for exteriors. some work tethered for interiors, as i do sometimes too,- but really sometimes. you do the same, eric as you describe it, isnt it?

Interiors are tethered 95% or the time, exteriors maybe 5%.

Quote
and yes... thats theory that the white references can work if you one time have shot them, stored them in a "white file bank"  and than you apply them to your shots which you do later. in fact you have to write down in this case every millimeter of movements and which aperture you used .... its much more work than to shoot a new lcc shot and apply it. and soon you will see also that this method sometimes works and sometimes not good enough.

I agree here.  Maarten, don't listen to someone who tells you to build a library of reference files.  This topic requires your own testing.  Each millimeter makes a difference.  I have two lenses that will shift 25mm.  That equates to 625 reference files for each lens.

Quote
although with the aptus22 or the emotion22 there is no urgent need to shoot white files, with the P25 it is. as far i know this back shows extreme color shifts with movements.

Yes, the P25 is the same as the P45 in this regard.  This is why I posted earlier that Maarten would be spoiled with the Aptus 22 not having to use any correction or converter before putting the images in many different RAW converters.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 09:19:48 pm by ericstaud »
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meurten

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« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2007, 06:03:07 am »

Quote
if you dont have already the lens i would recommend the rodenstock 35HR. its not so expensive than the 28HR but exactly the same  quality. no problem to use it at f4 without center.
movements are app. 12mm. this sounds little, but in fact the rodenstock35 digital and the schneider 35XL ( i think they are similar performers with an edge for the schneider ) allow more movements, but over 15mm shift they are not very sharp anymore. i dont like this and returned my 35 digital rodenstock and exchanged it to the HR.
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Hi Rainer.

thanks for the tip, it will be my first choice, as I rather not work with filters whenever possible.
Do you have any experience with the Apo Digitar 5.6/47 mm XL?
Alpa has a version where it is decentered 8 mm on the lensboard, that is intereseting in combination with the Alpa SWA as it has only vertical shift.

At the moment backwise I am a little bit in favor of the SINAR, thanks to all the positive writings about Brumbear, I have to say that his value to Sinar is stunning !!!
But I will know more after working with the Phase ( a shame that I could only rent a P45 instead of the 25) and making some nightshots to see what kind of exposure's I'll get and if that may be the desicive point to get a refurbished Phase one.

I saw a picture of you in a Sinar Brochure, are you working, testing for with Sinar?

Maarten

rainer_v

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« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2007, 11:31:01 am »

Quote
Hi Rainer.

thanks for the tip, it will be my first choice, as I rather not work with filters whenever possible.
Do you have any experience with the Apo Digitar 5.6/47 mm XL?
Alpa has a version where it is decentered 8 mm on the lensboard, that is intereseting in combination with the Alpa SWA as it has only vertical shift.

At the moment backwise I am a little bit in favor of the SINAR, thanks to all the positive writings about Brumbear, I have to say that his value to Sinar is stunning !!!
But I will know more after working with the Phase ( a shame that I could only rent a P45 instead of the 25) and making some nightshots to see what kind of exposure's I'll get and if that may be the desicive point to get a refurbished Phase one.

I saw a picture of you in a Sinar Brochure, are you working, testing for with Sinar?

Maarten
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i have not experience with the 47mm xl, but i use the rodenstock 45mm digital and this i do often. listened good things about the 47xl, i suppose they might perform similar ... but its just a guess.
i am not working for sinar, at least not in a direct form. sinar used several photos from different projects of me for advertisement and brochures ( mainly in asia ), also the code for the centerfold issue and the highlight recovery made by stefan during the work on brumbaer tools  was taken over by sinar and since that time i am in contact to their technical departement in swiss, telling them what i think,- mostly related to architecture ( digital ) photography, issues, workarounds and ideas i have in my work with their backs.
my relation to stefan still is very close, so we phone often and chat. sometimes about the software sometimes about the life.
thierry became a good friend of mine after assist ing, inviting ( for great thai food cooked by his wife )  and helping me in the airport project in bangkok.


[attachment=3776:attachment]
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 12:59:51 pm by rainer_v »
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meurten

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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2007, 11:21:29 am »

Is there place on the internet where I can find good examples of the colorcast issue?
There was a an issue with that beautiful 20 minute nightsnowshot from Eric.
I would like to see some more if possible and other known DB issues
Anybody ideas?

I find this one (centrefold?) myself using the aptus 75 a while ago.
Does the 22 have a centrefold issue as well, I read it happends easier with wide angles?

Maarten[attachment=3798:attachment]

Mort54

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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2007, 04:12:21 pm »

If you shoot without any shifts or tilts - for example, using an Alpa TC which has no tilt or shift capability - are lens casts a problem on Phase backs?

Curious minds (and perspective Alpa TC buyers) want to know :-)
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DominiqueMarcWehrli

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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2007, 06:00:56 pm »

Maarten

The 22 can also show centerfold effects (emotion22) and has enough colorcast to use the plexi for every shot. So don't expect an easier solution with a dalsa chip equipped 22 MP back.

Regards
Dominique
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Jost von Allmen

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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2007, 06:03:13 pm »

Quote from: Mort54,Nov 11 2007, 11:12 PM
If you shoot without any shifts or tilts - for example, using an Alpa TC which has no tilt or shift capability - are lens casts a problem on Phase backs?

I'm using an ALPA SWA with shift possibilities up to 25mm, which I can't actually fully use with my current line-up: 35mm / 60mm / 100mm HR Rodenstocks and 180mm Schneider Digitar.
On my P45+ (as before on the P45) ALL the lenses show lens cast to some degree, the wider the lens the more! It's however absolutely no problem to completely remove it with the lenscast correction feature Capture One offers.
You simply build up a library of correction files for all the lenses and f-stops, including horizontal and vertical versions, and then choose them when you process the files.
So you don't have to shoot new correction files every time unless you use special shifts.
On many images, lens cast isn't bothering me anyway, so I don't even always use the correction files.
As I'm using Windows XP, I was checking backs and systems last spring and found the LEAF software wasn't working whatsoever: No way to remove centerfold on a windows machine!!!! On MAC it now seems to work fine.

And by the way: If you got the ALPA with a PhaseOne back, you should seriously consider the SW or SWA with the wake-up grip, trigger and cables for Phase One, as it's the best integrated solution there is for the wake-up signal required.
On the ALPA homepage www.alpa.ch you'll find all the details.

Hope that helps.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2007, 07:56:26 pm »

Quote
Maarten

The 22 can also show centerfold effects (emotion22) and has enough colorcast to use the plexi for every shot. So don't expect an easier solution with a dalsa chip equipped 22 MP back.

Regards
Dominique
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if a dalsa22 ( e22+54 / a22 ) shows CF i.m.o. its  "out of specs",- allthough brumbaer tools will remove this too, its compatible for both sensors. the dalsa33 ( e75 / a75 ) is a different story, even dalsa claims 3% tolerances between the six parts of the sensors,- so in some way you can say that the CF is the "normal" working situation for these sensors and its up to the companies to deliver working software solutions. with some cynism one can say that a dalsa75 sensors without centerfold is "out of specs" too.

during the work on brumbaer tools existed some beta versions, which "introduced" the CF issue to the e22, although it was not there originally. at that points the algorythm removed the CF for the e75 and created it for some e22 backs ( at least for mine ). some tweaking of the code from stefan removed that issue again, there should not be a version out which creates this effect.
in general there is no need for centerfold correction for the dalsa 22, not for the emotion22/54 not for the aptus22.  do you have an e22 which shows a centerfold ?
for most of the people the color casts of the dalsa22 are insignificant enough that most work without correction. me i did the same, although i changed later , after starting to use the e75 and after seeing how uniform it has been, after applying the corrections. part of this uniformity also is the removal of every vignetting, but this is optical caused, not by the sensor. in general i do not see a problem to work with ths emotion22 without corrections as well.
this i cant say from the e75.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 08:49:21 pm by rainer_v »
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Mort54

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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2007, 08:02:15 pm »

Quote
On my P45+ (as before on the P45) ALL the lenses show lens cast to some degree, the wider the lens the more! It's however absolutely no problem to completely remove it with the lenscast correction feature Capture One offers.
Thanks Jost. I had hoped that without shifts there would be no lens casts, since I don't like Capture One software (or rather, I much prefer Lightroom, and would prefer not to add yet another tool to my workflow). Do you know if the color cast correction could be applied in Capture One software after RAW conversion in another tool, like Lightroom? In other words, can Capture One be used to perform a color cast correction on a TIFF file generated by another RAW converter?

I've looked at all the Alpas, and would love to use the SWA. But my main interest in the TC is for a small lightweight rig to use on longer hikes. I have a Mamiya 645 with the P45+ now, and while it's not as heavy as some MF outfits, it's still heavier than I'd like (plus there's always the nagging feeling that I'm not putting the best possible glass in front of my P45+ - why have a P45+ and put "average" glass in front of it?). Of course, once you add the ground glass, a loupe, a hand meter, and maybe a viewfinder, I'm not sure there's much of a weight savings (especially with the Rodenstock HR lenses, which are the ones I'd prefer).

Decisions, decisions :-)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 08:04:59 pm by Mort54 »
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« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2007, 02:13:41 am »

Quote
Thanks Jost. I had hoped that without shifts there would be no lens casts, since I don't like Capture One software (or rather, I much prefer Lightroom, and would prefer not to add yet another tool to my workflow). Do you know if the color cast correction could be applied in Capture One software after RAW conversion in another tool, like Lightroom? In other words, can Capture One be used to perform a color cast correction on a TIFF file generated by another RAW converter?



I've looked at all the Alpas, and would love to use the SWA. But my main interest in the TC is for a small lightweight rig to use on longer hikes. I have a Mamiya 645 with the P45+ now, and while it's not as heavy as some MF outfits, it's still heavier than I'd like (plus there's always the nagging feeling that I'm not putting the best possible glass in front of my P45+ - why have a P45+ and put "average" glass in front of it?). Of course, once you add the ground glass, a loupe, a hand meter, and maybe a viewfinder, I'm not sure there's much of a weight savings (especially with the Rodenstock HR lenses, which are the ones I'd prefer).



Decisions, decisions :-)
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It's not possible to correct lens cast with a tiff file, C1 can only do this while converting raw to tiff. I don't know of any other converter achieving the same high quality with my files from the P45+, including lcc.
I've been able to compare Hasselblad-, Mamyia-, Schneider- and Rodenstock lenses before I decided on buying my equipment. The Rodenstock HRs are incredible! They (and the Schneider Digitars) do however produce more lens cast then retrofocus constructions.

regards

Jost
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ericstaud

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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2007, 03:12:52 am »

Quote
Thanks Jost. I had hoped that without shifts there would be no lens casts, since I don't like Capture One software (or rather, I much prefer Lightroom, and would prefer not to add yet another tool to my workflow). Do you know if the color cast correction could be applied in Capture One software after RAW conversion in another tool, like Lightroom? In other words, can Capture One be used to perform a color cast correction on a TIFF file generated by another RAW converter?

I've looked at all the Alpas, and would love to use the SWA. But my main interest in the TC is for a small lightweight rig to use on longer hikes. I have a Mamiya 645 with the P45+ now, and while it's not as heavy as some MF outfits, it's still heavier than I'd like (plus there's always the nagging feeling that I'm not putting the best possible glass in front of my P45+ - why have a P45+ and put "average" glass in front of it?). Of course, once you add the ground glass, a loupe, a hand meter, and maybe a viewfinder, I'm not sure there's much of a weight savings (especially with the Rodenstock HR lenses, which are the ones I'd prefer).

Decisions, decisions :-)
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A main advantage of Leaf and Sinar is that the color casts are corrected and written into new RAW files which can then be processed in other RAW software.

The Phase solution applies the correction only to the output RGB file.  It is an easy and fast tethered solution.  For shooting to a card it is faster than Leaf to apply corrections, and slower than Sinar.

The new C1 Pro v4 is said to have DNG output from the Phase RAW files.  As I understand it, the DNG files will have the color casts removed.  We won't know this for sure until next spring when the software is released though.
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meurten

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« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2007, 02:07:39 pm »

Yesterday I was working with a Horseman SWPRo and a phase one DB.
Really had to get used to  working this way.
Before i had a day experience with the Cambo wide DS and a Leaf back.

The Horseman to my taste is not a good camera at least for architectural work.
It is not geared, and if the screw is openend just a little to much the Phase back just slides down because of its weight.  I would never want to switch lenses in the cold with four of those little screws  that hold the lenspanel.
So Alpa defenitly is a good choice.
The other thing is that I couldn't get used to the wake up call of the back.
I even had a capture group cable that serves the back wake-up call and the lens shutter, but frequently made a mistake, waited to long.....
The shots are really nice... altough you really need the white-ref. final with every shot !
I was astounded by the fact that after taking a dark light shot of 19 minutes I had to wait 19 minutes for a processed file? the hours will fly by in the nighjt that way?!?!?!?
It's not my favorite back, but the software is nice! clean and crisp!
And the Lcc files are easy to handle.
Although as eric pointed out it is great as well when the colour correction is writen in the Raw File.

But I dislike the screen, this on ewas not a + series yet and it's suposed to be better.
Since I dislike working tethered with the laptop and avoid it as much as possible this is a good plus for the Leaf, to me that back worked easy.

Hopefully next week I'll be able to see a sinar at work.
Another question, rainer told me to go with the Rodenstock 35 MM HR  Lens, and I like the fact that is sharp very with open F-stops, as he wrote before in another post, but how much shift can that lens handle ?

Also when i wanted to write the captured to my macbook, they were tiff files, only when imported with C1 were they imported as RAW???  any light on that?

Thanks for all the great comments so far,

Maarten

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Alpa and a digital back..?
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2007, 02:18:46 pm »

Quote
Yesterday I was working with a Horseman SWPRo and a phase one DB.
Really had to get used to  working this way.
Before i had a day experience with the Cambo wide DS and a Leaf back.

The Horseman to my taste is not a good camera at least for architectural work.
It is not geared, and if the screw is openend just a little to much the Phase back just slides down because of its weight.  I would never want to switch lenses in the cold with four of those little screws  that hold the lenspanel.
So Alpa defenitly is a good choice.
The other thing is that I couldn't get used to the wake up call of the back.
I even had a capture group cable that serves the back wake-up call and the lens shutter, but frequently made a mistake, waited to long.....
The shots are really nice... altough you really need the white-ref. final with every shot !
I was astounded by the fact that after taking a dark light shot of 19 minutes I had to wait 19 minutes for a processed file? the hours will fly by in the nighjt that way?!?!?!?
It's not my favorite back, but the software is nice! clean and crisp!
And the Lcc files are easy to handle.
Although as eric pointed out it is great as well when the colour correction is writen in the Raw File.

But I dislike the screen, this on ewas not a + series yet and it's suposed to be better.
Since I dislike working tethered with the laptop and avoid it as much as possible this is a good plus for the Leaf, to me that back worked easy.

Hopefully next week I'll be able to see a sinar at work.
Another question, rainer told me to go with the Rodenstock 35 MM HR  Lens, and I like the fact that is sharp very with open F-stops, as he wrote before in another post, but how much shift can that lens handle ?

Also when i wanted to write the captured to my macbook, they were tiff files, only when imported with C1 were they imported as RAW???  any light on that?

Thanks for all the great comments so far,

Maarten
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