P45+ Too Much Of A Good Thing?

[Gary Ferguson]

I picked up my P45+ a couple of weeks ago.

First surprise was the very large and glitzy case the P45+ came in when compared to the discreet pelican case that the P25 occupied, luckily I was able to swap cases during the upgrade.

Second surprise was how fast the P45+ goes through batteries, even shooting architectural at a sedate pace, lucky again because the LL review flagged this in advance so I'd ordered some extra batteries. But that's something else to fit in the camera case and more time spent slaving over a hot charger!

Third surprise was how slow my 2GB SDRAM MacBook Pro now runs on location. This is where my luck ran out as I don't have any easy answers except waiting patiently for an (expensive) laptop upgrade.

Fourth surprise, because I normally use a sliding carriage on a Linhof it was a breeze to stitch two P25 shots together for either sumptuous image quality or an ultra-wide lens effect. But given the pixel increase with the P45+ that technique is now a bit of a handful, and for interiors that'll be a problem unless I get a lens wider than my current 35mm. Oh dear, more expenditure.

Fifth surprise, not much image quality improvement over my P25 at the reproduction sizes I usually work to. In fact let's be frank, zero image quality improvement in a full bleed double page spread with normal commercial printing quality.

Hmm? I wonder what Phase could possibly do in a year or two to tempt me into a further upgrade? I was in two minds whether or not to upgrade to a P45+, and if I'm brutally honest I've probably made a bit of a mistake in doing so. Nothing fatal, but enough to make me approach the next upgrade with a bit more scepticism.

In fact, I think his could be the point where I finally step off the digital upgrade escalator, and that's such a happy thought it more than makes up for the above unpleasant surprises!

[jonstewart]

I have to say, Gary, largely for the reasons above I went for a P45, rather then a + version. A awful lot less expensive, but still delivers more than a P25, a newer design, and hopefully with a longer life with me, than a P25 would have been.

Perhaps it's no bad thing that you upgraded now. I have a hunch that the top end backs are not going to drop a lot in price with the 'pixel-creep' of the dSLR's, but I feel certain that, whether there is any justification for it, the price of the 22Mpixel MFDB's probably will.

So, I suspect, a good move! Let's face it... computers always get faster and cheaper.

What size is a 16 bit TIFF stitched from 4-5 originals?

(Got to figure out a way to cluster ALL my worstations for that one!)
Jon

[Graham Mitchell]

Gary, thanks for your honesty. It comes down (yet again) to the type of photography you do. If you are doing fine art, landscape, architecture, etc then you can never have too much resolution. On the other hand, I mainly shoot people.

Even if I could afford to upgrade from the 22 MP eMotion22 to the 33 MP eMotion75, I keep reminding myself that the capture rate of the e75 is slower, disks are filled faster (it's already a pain when you can't backup a shoot onto one DVD-R) and the processing times are slower and perhaps worst of all, the retouching just takes that much longer if you have 50% more pixels to retouch.

When I upgrade, it will be for several stops more usable high ISO performance, and ideally up to 2 fps capture rate, not more pixels (ok, I could live with up to 30 MP  )

[BJL]

Fifth surprise, not much image quality improvement over my P25 at the reproduction sizes I usually work to. In fact let's be frank, zero image quality improvement in a full bleed double page spread with normal commercial printing quality.
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In away that is reassuring: the P25 already gives over 300PPI for that size doesn't it? My eyes at least seem to max out on resolution somewhere below 300 PPI!

The P25's relatively close performance helps to make "budget options" like the new Mamiya 645ZD kit (and maybe the 1DsMkIII) viable up to a fairly high level of IQ needs.

Is this good news for pros still using MF film and deciding if, when and how to go digital?

[Jeffreytotaro]

Hi Gary:

I recently upgraded from the P25 to the 45+ too.  Yes, the case is ridiculous!  While I really liked the P25 and would be happy to keep using it if the + backs were not around here's what i think is better.

Firstly the color rendition is much truer.  This can get tricky with mixed lighting sources, but is solvable in the usual ways.  In testing the backs side-by-side, i found the 45+ to be smoother in the transitions across a light color wall for instance, and in transitions from a bright area to a darker one.

Secondly, I think the dynamic range is much improved in getting detail out of highlights and shadows.

Third, obviously you're not going to see an improvement in resolution from a 22mp back to 39mp back  in something as small as a magazine reproduction, even a double page spread.  The double page spread is well within the native size of the P25.  What is useful about the increased resolution is the improved moire (less of it), and the ability to crop into a shot more without loosing much res.

I also like the improved LCD screen and the live preview is working well for me.  Not just for composition but also for placing furniture and it works great when trying to place a gobo for a lens flag to eliminate flare.  You know when you've got it and when the flag is in view or not.

Lastly, something to note.  The + backs do not run great on Intel macs right now.  A new version of Capture One will be out in a few weeks, 3.7.8 which will improve the problems.  Mine crashed sometimes on both a MacBook Pro and Mac Pro.

You made a good decision to upgrade.  More MPs is not the only improvement here.

You should consider the Schneider 24XL lens.  It's extremely sharp!!  Not much movement but it gives you that extra room you may need beyond the 35.  Might be hard to use on the Linhof though.

Cheers!

[pss]

i too want to thank you for your honesty...it seems like everybody in this forum looks at the P45 as the holy grail....of course it is a very capable back, but the question should also be: how much of what do i need?
a friend of mine just bought a P21...after looking at everything, really wanting a P30 (but aquite a bit more expensive), comparing it to a P25 (which he was offered at a similar price), he went with the P21....it shoots the speed he needs (60fpm), high iso (up to 800) and the resolution is still plenty for full spread magazine work.....
we tend to forget that just a couple of years ago 6mpix backs were the top and used for high end advertising work....
i have a P30....i find the resolution more then enough to deal with everything....and the file quality is so good that i can res up without any problems to sizes that require a viewing distance that makes detail less important....
yes i would want it to shoot faster and up to 3200 ....and i am sure it will happen....
i am sure you will enjoy your P45, it is a great tool and after a few jobs you won't be able to go back to anything else.....
i find your post refreshng becuase most people coming here for advice get turned off by the attitude that everybody needs at LEAST a P25....which is total BS..great if you can afford it, but even then it might not be the best solution....
right now is a great time to get into DMF for about the same price (for a whole kit) as a canon or nikon kit....with much better files....and i will take 16 DMF mpix over 22 DSLR mpix anyday....

[jpjespersen]

I would have to agree about the case.  Although it impresses friends, it is asking to be stolen.  As far as your slow laptop,  I might suggest buying a 20" IMac instead of an expensive laptop, but I guess it just depends on how you travel.  I kept my new IMac box and transport the computer from my house to studio with ease.  It is just like carrying a large briefcase. And only requires a power cord.  
About the battery power, I might suggest long latency.  I can shoot all day long in the studio on a single battery, and still have enough juice for the next day.

[michaelprince]

I had the P25, and have the P45. The P45 handles shadows WAY better than
the P25, and moire's far less.

[hilljf]

The value in the p45+ is that it allows perhaps the best image that can be captured in a commercially available digital format.  It is marginally beter than the P45 I had before and if your are printing at magazine size, i imagine not much differerence from a p25.  

However, with a good file you can work the image and print at the size you need.  I have been doing images stiching two P45+ frames together and printing at 6 feet wide and the images are fantastic. Detail hard to see with the eye can be seen with a magnifying glass.    Even though the files are big, and the thought of a dual quad core workstation starts to make sense, I am chosing to shoot even basic portraits with the P45+, because I can always down sample with good results, but if I get a great image, it is impossible to add detail during upsampling.

The cost of megabytes of storage and processors is nothing compared to the cost of not having a file (negative) of the quality i might want to do what ever might be needed.

John

[Graham Mitchell]

and moire's far less.
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Yes, that's a valid point!

[nicolaasdb]

glad to read this...i'll stick with my Nikon D100, bought it 5 years ago 6MP, no dynamic range, who needs it....superior in lack of detail. I'll take my '81 Honda civic (nicknamed rustbucket) to my $250 dollar a day photoshoots. Using my 500mhz Compaq LAPtop with 30GB HD (4200RPM) and retouch everything in Photoshop 5.0


What I am trying to say is: If we all stopped upgrading, so will the economy and so will the people in product development and in the end we are the ones losing.

I think you did the right thing upgrading to the +....and in the end you will notice the difference...too bad you got to spend another 15K in upgrades of your laptop, lenses, batteries etc...but just admit it.....your lovin' it!! We are all gadget freaks....otherwise we would all still be shooting film/polaroids you know you can get a viewcamera that shoot 8x10 polaroids...quality is AMAZING!!

[izaack]

Yes, the case is ridiculous!
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I guess PhaseOne thinks that for the price, you should be getting Italian bling, www.amabilia.it , rather than saddle you with the plebeian Pelican.

[David WM]

Gary,
I suppose the upgrade that would suit you would be the qualities of the later model chip in the P45+ without the size it has. I imagine that as the market matures and realises that big files can be just inconvenient (expensive to manage) that backs with better but not larger chips might be offered.
David

[godtfred]

I had the P25, and have the P45. The P45 handles shadows WAY better than
the P25, and moire's far less.
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Yes, that's a valid point!
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...and a major hassle to get rid of if it's a large job with a tight deadline and no retouching budget. There are $ to be saved for people who shoot textiles in any shape or form and have to deliver steadily to magazines or similar.

I had much more trouble with moire on the H2D I got to borrow while waiting on my 39mpix back. Now I see it from time to time, but hardly anything that bothers me. Incidentally I got moire in some nylon stockings for a book cover shot today, but such is life!

-axel

[vgogolak]

I picked up my P45+ a couple of weeks ago.


Second surprise was how fast the P45+ goes through batteries, even shooting architectural at a sedate pace, lucky again because the LL review flagged this in advance so I'd ordered some extra batteries.
Third surprise was how slow my 2GB SDRAM MacBook Pro now runs on location. .

Fourth surprise, because I normally use a sliding carriage on a Linhof it was a breeze to stitch two P25 shots together for either sumptuous image quality or an ultra-wide lens effect. But given the pixel increase with the P45+ that technique is now a bit of a handful, and for interiors that'll be a problem unless I get a lens wider than my current 35mm. Oh dear, more expenditure.

Fifth surprise, not much image quality improvement over my P25 at the reproduction sizes I usually work to. In fact let's be frank, zero image quality improvement in a full bleed double page spread with normal commercial printing quality.

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Dear Gary,
I too went P25>P45>P45+ and have the following observations (NB: I have Contax 645 and use mostly those lenses, incl excelent 35mm and 80, also Hassey V;
On batteries, yes, about 20% more drain, BUT I travel and I notice thay keep charge better. I also bought a small charger (plug folds in) and worked like a charm in europe with simple round plug adapter

Stiching means better control simply due to registration. If you have very smal angle (like a 140mm) not good. Better with the 45 or 80 where the small variations can be blended )PTGUI works for me!)

On image quality, well, don't hit me, but what are you using for lenses? I have found even 8x10 better due to a very simple fact of life. 100% digital is not the best way to use. The leck of sharpening needed for images with 39MP is a massive advantage. I can't believe how much better. If you do a lot of sharpening anyway, well may not matter, but if the image is better to begin with (and 39MP is a lot) then you never get into the Bayer 'fixing ' mode. Remember, the 7000+ pixels you have are not all colors, BUT if you are at say 16-20" image at 240-300 you will pick up ALL the colors within the resolution.

However, all said I don't think the step from P25 to P45+ is all that massive, but then a lot people don't see the difference between 180 and 400 dpi in printing either!

regards
Victor

[BJL]

About four votes for less moiré with the higher pixel count: are we entering the territory of oversampling the image provided by the lens to avoid aliasing problems?

[Dustbak]

I still have moire problems with the 39MP back. Indeed less than before but more than I would wish for.

I agree that 39MP is adequate but like to be able to downsample a bit to cover up retouching (hard to see to begin with but after resizing not visible what so ever).

No I just need to cough up the money to upgrade to multishot

[Gary Ferguson]

Some good comments, especially the moire point, I have from time to time suffered from moire with the P25 and it'll be interesting to see if the P45+ reduces or eliminates this.

I've also found another advantage with the P45+, used with Hasselblad 38mm 903 it's fairly close to being a light, carry-around, digital version of one of my favourite film cameras of all time, the Hasselblad X Pan. Okay it's scale focusing and a fixed lens, but the benefits of digital filtration for B&W and a little bit of built-in up and down "shift", probably compensates for that.

However, for my purposes it looks like the digital upgrade path has come to an end. The P45+ offers only very small advantages over the P25, and comes with a few disadvantages besides the price. I'm not lamenting this or complaining, personally I'll find it a welcome change to spend more time taking photographs and less time reading instruction manuals!

[Gary Ferguson]

On image quality, well, don't hit me, but what are you using for lenses? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On the Linhof M679cs I use Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digital lenses from 35mm to 180mm. And on the Hasselblad I use some of Zeiss's finest optics, such as the 40mm IF, the 100mm, and the 350mm Super Achromat.

The point I'm making was that once the shot has been printed on a commercial, four colour offset  press I'm not seeing any image quality improvements from my P45+ versus my previous P25. Admittedly I've only seen two of my P45+ images printed thus at DPS dimensions, so I shouldn't be too emphatic, but I'd be surprised if future jobs make me alter that opinion.

Please don't get me wrong, this is a good thing!

Good because photography as a whole benefits when equipment costs aren't a barrier to younger photographers. I'm lucky enough that I can afford the latest gimmicks, but I'd be happier if I saw technical debates replaced with aesthetic ones. And the sooner we see the digital innovation curve flatten out the sooner we'll get to that situation. And that's what I believe we're seeing now,  I can't see how a future pixel increase could possibly make anyone upgrade from the P45+, and (beyond the moire issue) for my applications I probably shouldn't even have upgraded from the P25 to the P45+.