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Author Topic: Canon vs Phase  (Read 70225 times)

Mark_Tucker

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2007, 12:01:58 pm »

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Mark, why does this mirror slap blur just one small portion of the picture? Don't you think it should blur the entire (in focus) frame? Again, I think it's not a mirror slap problem. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140183\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I did not shoot the picture, and the guy who shot it won't give many details, but looking at the image, the sun was coming from the rear, and the flash was coming from the front (left). The sun was about two stops hotter than the flash, and the nose "flagged off" the sun from the foreground skin.

The mirror slap occurred only in the ambient areas, (the sun) because it was hotter. The flash duration froze the skin in the shadow areas.

It's just basic lighting theory. But this is my issue too, that the H series requires high shutter speed to avoid the slap.

You suffer from Home Field Advantage Loyalty Syndrome, because you're in Sweden. But the truth is hard to take. But that mirror is like a jackhammer, compared to Contax, Canon, or Mamiya.
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jimgolden

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2007, 12:21:45 pm »

we need a new forum 35 vs MF...haha
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Willow Photography

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2007, 12:46:59 pm »

Quote
I did not shoot the picture, and the guy who shot it won't give many details, but looking at the image, the sun was coming from the rear, and the flash was coming from the front (left). The sun was about two stops hotter than the flash, and the nose "flagged off" the sun from the foreground skin.

The mirror slap occurred only in the ambient areas, (the sun) because it was hotter. The flash duration froze the skin in the shadow areas.

It's just basic lighting theory. But this is my issue too, that the H series requires high shutter speed to avoid the slap.

You suffer from Home Field Advantage Loyalty Syndrome, because you're in Sweden. But the truth is hard to take. But that mirror is like a jackhammer, compared to Contax, Canon, or Mamiya.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


So Samuels picture example ( H2/210 at 1/60 ) is a fake?
No mirror slap there. How do you explain that?
Slap only from time to time?  

In the original example I think the strikes on his nose is the
model turning/moving his face.
Mark, I think you suffer from flashsync envy ( joke).
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ronno

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2007, 01:05:13 pm »

I think in Mark's theory, the bridge of the nose was exposed to bright daylight (NOT the strobe) and thus had blur form the daylight exposure & SLAP combo. Most of the rest of the image did not get the daylight, and thus no blur.

Meanwhile, the guessing game is fun and all, but I think it's time for JeffVo to do some splanin' as to how this thing was lit. And a small jpeg of the whole files wouldn't hurt either. [was the Canon file cropped more due to the longer frame??]

-ron
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 01:06:03 pm by ronno »
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Willow Photography

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2007, 01:14:31 pm »

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I think in Mark's theory, the bridge of the nose was exposed to bright daylight (NOT the strobe) and thus had blur form the daylight exposure & SLAP combo. Most of the rest of the image did not get the daylight, and thus no blur.

Meanwhile, the guessing game is fun and all, but I think it's time for JeffVo to do some splanin' as to how this thing was lit. And a small jpeg of the whole files wouldn't hurt either. [was the Canon file cropped more due to the longer frame??]

-ron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think we all agree on the strobe/sun/sharp/unsharp thing.
What we discuss is why the unsharp.
I am  pretty sure it is movement of the model, not mirror slap.

If it is mirror slap, shouldnt the strikes be more vertical ( not so much horisontal )?
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Willow Photography

psp

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2007, 02:26:18 pm »

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It's just basic lighting theory. But this is my issue too, that the H series requires high shutter speed to avoid the slap.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You can adjust the mirror-up capture delay to 200ms on the H series and dramatically improve the sharpness of your images.... you need the latest firmware upgrade.....
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jing q

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2007, 02:37:27 pm »

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I think we all agree on the strobe/sun/sharp/unsharp thing.
What we discuss is why the unsharp.
I am  pretty sure it is movement of the model, not mirror slap.

If it is mirror slap, shouldnt the strikes be more vertical ( not so much horisontal )?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140216\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

perhaps the camera was in vertical positioning
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josayeruk

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2007, 03:15:18 pm »

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You can adjust the mirror-up capture delay to 200ms on the H series and dramatically improve the sharpness of your images.... you need the latest firmware upgrade.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This does indeed make a huge difference.

Jo S.x
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Jonathan Wienke

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2007, 03:19:06 pm »

It's a portrait; having the camera in portrait orientation would make the mirror move horizontally...kind of makes sense, don't you think?

200ms shutter-release-to-capture delay as a "fix" for the mirror slap??? That's digicam (un)responsiveness territory; a rather flawed solution for what would seem to be a design problem. Ouch.
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eronald

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2007, 03:28:02 pm »

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It's a portrait; having the camera in portrait orientation would make the mirror move horizontally...kind of makes sense, don't you think?

200ms shutter-release-to-capture delay as a "fix" for the mirror slap??? That's digicam (un)responsiveness territory; a rather flawed solution for what would seem to be a design problem. Ouch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140241\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My problem today is that I find myself agreeing 100% with Jonathan.

Edmund
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Nick-T

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2007, 03:40:50 pm »

Edmund and Jonathan
Do either of you guys own an H Camera?

 I own three of them and shoot almost every day with them.

Mark owned one for a bit and hated the mirror slap. I think he over states the issue as I would never have hand held MF in the film days at below the reciprocal of focal length times two. So for a 50mm lens, handhelds at 1/100th and up.

The new extended mirror delay setting can be set at UP to 200ms. Set it at 50ms and you will see a dramatic increase in sharpness handheld.
I can get pin sharp at 1/60th with the 100mm and acceptably sharp at 1/30th.

Nick-T
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 03:41:12 pm by Nick-T »
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Morgan_Moore

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2007, 03:46:38 pm »

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Edmund and Jonathan
Do either of you guys own an H Camera?

 I own three of them and shoot almost every day with them.

Mark owned one for a bit and hated the mirror slap. I think he over states the issue as I would never have hand held MF in the film days at below the reciprocal of focal length times two. So for a 50mm lens, handhelds at 1/100th and up.

The new extended mirror delay setting can be set at UP to 200ms. Set it at 50ms and you will see a dramatic increase in sharpness handheld.
I can get pin sharp at 1/60th with the 100mm and acceptably sharp at 1/30th.

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140248\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Is the firmware available for H1? - sorry to drift OT

p.s. I think the bloke is moving not the camera

It is interesting how people always get uppy about the standards of peoples tests

Most here are photographers, not testers, and only, when testing, 'knock off' a couple of frames to give a quick demo of a basic concept

in terms of the two systems I still think many miss the basic points - a canon wont go on a view camera, doesnt have 800th synch, has a bit less DR and has more DOF (at given apertureFOV etc) which can be seen as an advantage or not, anyone not pushed into MF by one of these factors should go canon


S
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 03:53:21 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

eronald

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2007, 03:58:10 pm »

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Edmund and Jonathan
Do either of you guys own an H Camera?

 I own three of them and shoot almost every day with them.

Mark owned one for a bit and hated the mirror slap. I think he over states the issue as I would never have hand held MF in the film days at below the reciprocal of focal length times two. So for a 50mm lens, handhelds at 1/100th and up.

The new extended mirror delay setting can be set at UP to 200ms. Set it at 50ms and you will see a dramatic increase in sharpness handheld.
I can get pin sharp at 1/60th with the 100mm and acceptably sharp at 1/30th.

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140248\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for clarification. I've tried brand H, didn't like it, so ended up going with M which seemed usable. Am waiting for delivery at which point I doubtless will be inclined to rant.

Edmund.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 04:00:31 pm by eronald »
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ronno

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2007, 04:23:16 pm »

You boys better keep testing.
Here's the new Hasselblad:
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/16874/hasselblad-h3d-ii/
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josayeruk

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2007, 04:48:18 pm »

Quote
Edmund and Jonathan
Do either of you guys own an H Camera?

 I own three of them and shoot almost every day with them.

Mark owned one for a bit and hated the mirror slap. I think he over states the issue as I would never have hand held MF in the film days at below the reciprocal of focal length times two. So for a 50mm lens, handhelds at 1/100th and up.

The new extended mirror delay setting can be set at UP to 200ms. Set it at 50ms and you will see a dramatic increase in sharpness handheld.
I can get pin sharp at 1/60th with the 100mm and acceptably sharp at 1/30th.

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140248\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe they should try before they comment.      No offence boys!

Certainly helped me with hand-held work anyway.  Proof is in the puddin'!

@ Morgan...

Yes, I *think* the H1 can be updated to reflect this addition.  Worth asking HBlad anyway.

Jo S.x
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H1/A75 Guy

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2007, 04:53:20 pm »

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Is the firmware available for H1?

S
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H firmware v. 9.2.2 (released in June '07) was primarily written for the mirror-delay. I shoot handheld at 1/125 for most of my work. I have v. 9.2.2 in my H1. 'Extra Mirror Delay' is Custom Function 31.
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ronno

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2007, 05:21:40 pm »

If Mark doesn't get around to it, I'll do a similar test this week with the Hassy H3D vs. the 5D.

-ron
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Willow Photography

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2007, 05:37:44 pm »

Still waiting for Tuckers answer to Samuels pinsharp H2/210 1/60 picture  
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Mark_Tucker

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2007, 07:28:48 pm »

First I've heard about this firmware upgrade, regarding the mirror. Funny how they denied there was ever a problem, and then one day, there's a firmware fix for that problem that never existed.

This can only be great news for anyone shooting Hasselblad H.

And who says that complaining doesn't sometimes produce results?

Congratulations, fellas. Welcome to 1/60th of a second. Come on in, the water's fine, (now).
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samuel_js

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Canon vs Phase
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2007, 07:37:46 pm »

I have to say, as I wrote in my original message, my shot was 1/125, not 1/60. Still, the lens was a 210mm at 5,6 (not the sharpest aperture).
About the firmware, mine is still 9.2 so, no mirror fix in my camera...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 07:41:09 pm by samuel_js »
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