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Author Topic: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up  (Read 138616 times)

stefan marquardt

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Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2007, 10:11:28 am »

Quote
Hi
In comparison to my ZD camera there has been a firmware upgrade. My ZD is from March 2006. Longer exposure has been improved & it seems the iso is better than my camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I see. so there has been a firmware update to the zd-back, but not the zd-camera.
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pprdigital

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Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2007, 10:59:49 am »

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no suprises here for me. I (would) never use my ZD on anything longer than 4-6 seconds (10 sec. max). using the right software helps. especialy with the "salt-grain" (looks like salt grains sprinkled onto the pic) the hot-pixel slider of Raw developer helps o lot.

my advice for anybody interessted in the zd: if you dont have enough light, dont use the ZD.  iso 50-100 and exposure times shorter than 5 seconds will get you nice files. if you are forced to use less light, one better sticks with the 5D (or even better the old 1ds, or phase..).

stefan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138807\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll tell you what the ZD reminds me of, and this may be an unfair comparison and also at the same time open up a whole 'nother can of worms, but it reminds me of the Kodak 14N.

The reason it does is that the 14N held great promise, ground-breaking technology at a great price. The first announced full frame 35mm sensor, 14MP (then the highest), etc.

But when rubber hit the road, the Kodak disappointed as many users as it pleased.

We sold very few and generally steered people clear of them. I'm not actively involved in selling 35mm, but when my clients would ask about it I told them "It's a sweet spot camera". Meaning if you're in the zone of what it can do well, you'll be happy. But it's a relatively constricted zone and if you stray outside it you'll be disappointed.

I see the ZD as a similar product. At least this version of it.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com
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stefan marquardt

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Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2007, 11:25:13 am »

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I'll tell you what the ZD reminds me of, and this may be an unfair comparison and also at the same time open up a whole 'nother can of worms, but it reminds me of the Kodak 14N.

The reason it does is that the 14N held great promise, ground-breaking technology at a great price. The first announced full frame 35mm sensor, 14MP (then the highest), etc.

But when rubber hit the road, the Kodak disappointed as many users as it pleased.

We sold very few and generally steered people clear of them. I'm not actively involved in selling 35mm, but when my clients would ask about it I told them "It's a sweet spot camera". Meaning if you're in the zone of what it can do well, you'll be happy. But it's a relatively constricted zone and if you stray outside it you'll be disappointed.

I see the ZD as a similar product. At least this version of it.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

well, basically its probably just like any of the 1-2 year old backs like the emotion 22 or any other leaf back that used this dalsa sensor. lots of users were/are still happy using them.  not having used a similar leaf... back I cant realy say, but from what i have read, they showed the same characteristica as the zd. its only the last - noisewise improved - sensors that make the zd look not as good.

but apart from that, i feel (for my typical use of the camera!),  the zd is a really good product that handles realy well, and i cant see many other faults (again: only for my type of usage!). considering its mamiyas first digital camera, i would say - they havent done too bad. And I remember the problems other photographers had with their backs of different makes too. not many were trouble free from the start!.

I never had an error message poping up, never had software problems, the mamiya software doesnt do a very good job with the files, but it lets you shoot into the mac nicely. and it doesnt produce colorshifts.

on very big plus of the zd (compared to canon): you can use the autofocus confirmation light with the manual lenses. absolutely usefull in many situations.

stefan
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 02:47:55 pm by stefan marquardt »
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JDG

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« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2007, 04:28:45 pm »

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well, basically its probably just like any of the 1-2 year old backs like the emotion 22 or any other leaf back that used this dalsa sensor. lots of users were/are still happy using them.  not having used a similar leaf... back I cant realy say, but from what i have read, they showed the same characteristica as the zd. its only the last - noisewise improved - sensors that make the zd look not as good.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes it is the same sensor, and you do see some of the same characteristics... i.e. speed and sensitivity, however the important difference here is not the CCD used to capture, but the in-back processing chips that handle the data.  The Leaf Valeo/Aptus and eMotion22 used higher quality 16-bit AD converters, where as the ZD uses a 14bit converter that produces a 12-bit raw file.... 12 to 16 bit is a difference of over 30,000 colors!
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mcfoto

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Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2007, 06:17:41 pm »

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I see. so there has been a firmware update to the zd-back, but not the zd-camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
There is a firmware upgrade for the ZD camera. I will send my camera back to L&P here in Sydney so they can send it to Japan. The new ZD cameras have increased time exposure & improved iso. On the other subject I would not compare the ZD to the Kodax 14N. The 14N had problems on overcast days. Back to price for $7000.00 compared to $25,000.00 that is huge. For what I put the ZD camera through last week, its performance was brilliant!! And when it comes to long exposures what are the best backs as we all know Phase is one of the best.
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Denis Montalbetti
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mcfoto

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« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2007, 08:10:12 pm »

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Just got a mail from Mamiya NL.
The problem was found in the CCD, so the purple artifacts should be gone from now on.

Can't test this myself anymore but I trust that it's the truth of course.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
Good news. When I talk to people in the industry about forms & this one comes up. They shy away, I talked to two senior Hasselblad staff from Germany & they are not fans of this form. I think this ZD thread is an example of running with something & in the end the CCD was faulty. I think it is a great form & the only one for MFD.
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JDBFreeheel

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« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2007, 09:21:27 pm »

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Just got a mail from Mamiya NL.
The problem was found in the CCD, so the purple artifacts should be gone from now on.

Can't test this myself anymore but I trust that it's the truth of course.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Frank,

Can you elaborate?  Was it one or a few faulty CCDs or were allCCDs used up to now faulty?  I'm curious if Mamiya (MAC here in the US) will contact us owners with updates?  I have yet to see the purple worms in my pictures but I shoot mostly well lit shots.  My shadows thus far do not show worms, but I'm worried that I'll find them later.  

Does anyone here on the forum have a MAC USA contact (real human being) to check to see what those of us with the ZD back can expect?

-Josh
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pprdigital

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Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2007, 09:25:51 pm »

Quote
Hi
There is a firmware upgrade for the ZD camera. I will send my camera back to L&P here in Sydney so they can send it to Japan. The new ZD cameras have increased time exposure & improved iso. On the other subject I would not compare the ZD to the Kodax 14N. The 14N had problems on overcast days. Back to price for $7000.00 compared to $25,000.00 that is huge. For what I put the ZD camera through last week, its performance was brilliant!! And when it comes to long exposures what are the best backs as we all know Phase is one of the best.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I didn't mean to imply that the ZD had similar problems that the 14N had, like overcast skies, etc. Only that they are similar in that in their sweet spot they work well and provide value. But the sweet spot is a smaller "spot" than their competitors.

Also, I would say that digital backs from 1 to 2 years ago (22MP) were superior to the ZD in nearly every way and still are.

Don't let me rain on anyone's parade, though. If you have a ZD and it's working for you, you've chosen well with regard to buying a product that fits your needs. I'm speaking very generally and specifically towards buyers who may think the ZD is more than it is.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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eronald

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Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2007, 12:41:00 am »

What I heard from Nikon users was that the 14N was yucky at release but after about a year or so firmware releases had improved it a lot, unfortunately by then the camera's rep was damaged beyond repair.


Quote
I didn't mean to imply that the ZD had similar problems that the 14N had, like overcast skies, etc. Only that they are similar in that in their sweet spot they work well and provide value. But the sweet spot is a smaller "spot" than their competitors.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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stefan marquardt

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Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2007, 03:24:31 am »

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Yes it is the same sensor, and you do see some of the same characteristics... i.e. speed and sensitivity, however the important difference here is not the CCD used to capture, but the in-back processing chips that handle the data.  The Leaf Valeo/Aptus and eMotion22 used higher quality 16-bit AD converters, where as the ZD uses a 14bit converter that produces a 12-bit raw file.... 12 to 16 bit is a difference of over 30,000 colors!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138972\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


personaly I dont know. but listening to what rainer viertlböck said here again and again (and I rate his technical expertise highly) all backs use only 14 bits.

stefan
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2007, 03:38:12 am »

Well it should be a series of backs.
So I guess if you have the artifacts call up your dealer.

If it was ONE back I would not have posted this, before I posted it on the forum I talked to at least 4 people experiencing exactly the same problem.

I will always rule out if it's only my back for the simple reason, a forum is a very powerful thing, misuse it and can really hurt a brand, use it correctly and it can generate sales.

I have ALWAYS stated that my first back did not have the problem, however the new one did, as so did some other users so I posted it.
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Henry Goh

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« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2007, 06:00:03 am »

Quote
Well it should be a series of backs.
So I guess if you have the artifacts call up your dealer.

If it was ONE back I would not have posted this, before I posted it on the forum I talked to at least 4 people experiencing exactly the same problem.

I will always rule out if it's only my back for the simple reason, a forum is a very powerful thing, misuse it and can really hurt a brand, use it correctly and it can generate sales.

I have ALWAYS stated that my first back did not have the problem, however the new one did, as so did some other users so I posted it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139077\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Frank.

I started this thread but I have kept silent for quite a few pages because it has veered off course so far that I thought no one really cared or know what they are talking about.

BTW really keen to see those footage on the DVDs. ;^))

Henry
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2007, 04:59:57 pm »


The DVDs are with the printers.
Officially it was scheduled for a November release but because I teach two workshops in LA on the 27-28th of October I cleared my schedule the last three weeks and worked almost full time on the DVD.

I'm very very happy with the outcome
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clawery

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« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2007, 05:03:31 pm »

On a previous post someone requested pricing on Phase One backs. Here is a list of the current backs.




Chris Lawery
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Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
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SeanFS

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« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2007, 05:43:30 pm »

Not quite true. It did improve considerably but had issues with some lenses .The SLRN/NX upgrade made it a very viable camera, more usable an a variety of situations. I bought the 14n as a poor man's pro back  - and it did the studio work very well indeed.
The cheap body they used didn't help much either, but util the announcement of the D3 it was the only FF Nikon option. I moved to Canon but the camera I had still takes very nice images comparable to the 1ds2 ( a friend bought it at a bargain price) . Nikon has probably been as anxious to get a FF product to the market but looks like it has taken time to really get it right and learned from the 14n fiasco.
 I Agree, the Mamiya back does seem to be following in the 14n footsteps , but I'm sure will get there. The samples I have seen from the SLR have mostly been ok so something must have gone weird with the back as the chip it uses has a pretty good reputation elsewhere.
Amazed at the long exposure qualities of the Phase one backs .


Quote
What I heard from Nikon users was that the 14N was yucky at release but after about a year or so firmware releases had improved it a lot, unfortunately by then the camera's rep was damaged beyond repair.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139058\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Henry Goh

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« Reply #95 on: September 13, 2007, 06:27:12 pm »

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I Agree, the Mamiya back does seem to be following in the 14n footsteps , but I'm sure will get there. The samples I have seen from the SLR have mostly been ok so something must have gone weird with the back as the chip it uses has a pretty good reputation elsewhere.
Amazed at the long exposure qualities of the Phase one backs .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mamiya will eventually get it right but seeing their financial problems of recent years, if too few people buy their first back, the worry is they may end up abandoning MFDB business altogether.  That would be a huge loss since Pentax has already left the scene and there is no price pressure on the other brands of back.
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Anders_HK

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« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2007, 08:49:40 pm »

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On a previous post someone requested pricing on Phase One backs. Here is a list of the current backs.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Chris,

Much thanks for posting the prices. I checked Hong Kong prices also. It is interesting to note that as examples the P25+ and P45+ are sold for near same prices in Hong Kong compared to in USA. Normally camera gear is lower priced in HK than other places since HK does not have tax.

I paid just over 8000 USD for the ZD camera in Hong Kong. A P25+ back alone would be three times as much. As an advanced amateur I dont see how I can justify. For others perhaps it is possible...

Back to my other question; What is the advantage of Phase 25+ and Phase 45+ within the sweet spot that the ZD is very capable in? Referencing again Stefan Marquardt's advise above on the ZD:

"my advice for anybody interessted in the zd: if you dont have enough light, dont use the ZD. iso 50-100 and exposure times shorter than 5 seconds will get you nice files"

Is the quality improvement from the Phase backs much significant in comparison or only subtle? Can you post some samples? It seems use of ZD/Phase would be ISO 50-100 and less than 5 second exposure to maximize quality, or?

If we speak of price levels, then the ZD should be compared to the upcoming 1Ds Mk III and D3X, but... we do not know yet how much better they will be compared to 1Ds Mk II or D2X....


Regards
Anders
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H1/A75 Guy

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« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2007, 08:53:22 pm »

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On a previous post someone requested pricing on Phase One backs. Here is a list of the current backs.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ouch, Chris!

Expensive backs! I didn't pay anything anywhere close to those prices.

David
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clawery

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« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2007, 10:10:23 pm »

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Ouch, Chris!

Expensive backs! I didn't pay anything anywhere close to those prices.

David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Those are list prices. Talk to your local dealer about getting an estimate for the back you are interested in.

We have tests on our web site showing several camera comparisons: www.captureintegration.com

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration
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H1/A75 Guy

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Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2007, 12:18:11 am »

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Those are list prices. Talk to your local dealer about getting an estimate for the back you are interested in.

We have tests on our web site showing several camera comparisons: www.captureintegration.com

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I understand, Chris. It is doubtful anyone is paying list for their (new) DBs. Hopefully not anyway. I paid $24,500US for my A75 two years ago and my dealer through in a 30GB Digital Magazine and 3 year warranty at no charge. I guess today a new A75 lists for $22,500. If it is any help to Leaf marketeers, I would pay $30k for a Leaf (44MP) A84s back to hang on my $8,500 LeafAFI. I'd just have to figure out how i could afford the Prism Finder.
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