Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Standard print and mat sizes  (Read 41956 times)

dkabat

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
Standard print and mat sizes
« on: August 23, 2007, 03:42:53 pm »

Have just started printing with the 3800 in the last few months and was thinking that it might be a good idea to standardize print sizes for matting and framing purposes.  I think by doing this I can buy mats and frames in bulk, also it should help workflow a little.

Am interested in using 3 paper sizes - 8.5x11, 13x19 and 17x22.  You suggestions as to print size for each and a mat border size recommendation would be appreciated.

Any other comments also welcome.

Thanks
Dan
Logged

fdi

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 52
    • http://www.framedestination.com/
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 07:22:57 pm »

13x19 Paper: If you have an SLR, which normally has an image aspect ratio of 3:2, this is a convenient size because it requires almost no cropping. An un-cropped 3:2 image printed on 13x19 paper will only lose one-half inch of the image. (In other words, the un-cropped image would measure 13x19.5 inches.) Another excellent image size for 13x19 paper is 12x18. This size creates its own border. The borders on the paper can be used for the artist's signature, or as a mounting aid utilizing photo corners . (The corners can be concealed with the mat.) Although mat boards with 12x18 and 13x19 openings are is not readily available some companies (like mine) offer mats with openings in these sizes and others will do custom . An 18x24 standard frame size with mat is ideal for these image sizes. With the 18x24 the 12x18 will have an even three-inch mat border surrounding the image, and the 13x19 will have an even 2.5 inch mat border.

Paper Size: 13x19
Standard Frame Sizes: 12x16
Non-standard frame Sizes: 12x18 , 13x19
Standard Matted Frame Size: 18x24
Recommended Image Sizes: 10x15, 12x16, 12x18, 13x19

17x22 Printer Paper Framing Options

This is ideal for 16x20 images, which have an infinite selection of matted and un-matted frames. Unfortunately, 16x20 is neither a 3:2 nor 4:3 ratio; 16x24 is the 3:2 ratio but can only be printed on 17-inch roll paper or the new 17x25 paper.

Paper Size: 17x22
Standard Frame Sizes: 16x20
Non-standard frame Sizes: 17x22
Standard Matted Frame Size: 20x24, 22x28
Recommended Image Sizes: 16x20, 17x22

8.5x11 Printer Paper Framing Options

Although 8x10 paper is available, 8.5x11 is a common paper size. Most 8.5x11 frames are designed for certificates rather that photos, although some specialty frame shops do offer 8.5x11 picture frames.

Summary of Options for 8.5x11 Paper
Paper Size: 8.5x11
Standard Frame Sizes: 8x10, 8.5x11
Non-standard frame Sizes: 8.5x11 (non-certificate frames less common)
Standard Matted Frame Size: 9x12, 11x14, 16x20

Cheers,
Mark

Frame Destination, Inc.
http://www.framedestination.com
http://www.pbase.com/lila161
http://framedestination.blogspot.com/
Quote
Have just started printing with the 3800 in the last few months and was thinking that it might be a good idea to standardize print sizes for matting and framing purposes.  I think by doing this I can buy mats and frames in bulk, also it should help workflow a little.

Am interested in using 3 paper sizes - 8.5x11, 13x19 and 17x22.  You suggestions as to print size for each and a mat border size recommendation would be appreciated.

Any other comments also welcome.

Thanks
Dan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135106\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged
Mark Rogers
Frame Destination [url=https

dkabat

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2007, 10:55:58 pm »

Thanks a lot Mark!
Logged

Dave Gurtcheff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 661
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2007, 12:09:22 pm »

Quote
Thanks a lot Mark!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135180\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dan: Great idea to standardize sizes; that's what I have done  
In my case, I make all *uncropped* 13"x19", 16"x24", and 20"x30" prints. The 13"x19" are in 20"x24" mats and frames; the 16"x24" prints are in 24"x30" mats and frames, and the 20"x30" prints are in 30"x36" mats and frames. I buy my sized mats with pre-cut bevel cut openings in bulk. I buy my glass by the case (standard glass sizes helped me select frame and mat sizes). I buy my frames in bulk. I buy fome core by the case. Obviously I give up some artistic freedom by carefully composing in camera (zoom lenses help here) so as not to have to crop from the 3:2 format. I have found if you inquire at your local hardware store, they will work with you on case prices for glass. My store special orders it for me and I get a 25% discount case price. They love it: comes in the back door, and, quite literally, out the front door. They don't even open it, no need to inventory and price it, etc. You may want to check this out.

Standardizing sizes allows me to sell at reasonable prices, but offer a hand made product (I print, mount, mat and frame all my own work). It has worked out well for me. I have found a "niche"...we live at a resort area on th NJ shore, and I specialize in local seascapes. I sell a finished product to visitors, home owners, etc. The kind of stuff I do is on my web site along with my prices, if you are interested. I have no affiliation with the following but I get great service buying frams from Frame Fit in Philadelphia, fome cores from Framingsupplies.com,  and pre cut mats from the Mat Shop in Calif.
Best of luck
Dave Gurtcheff
www.modernpictorials.com  
Logged

Alaska

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2007, 04:55:13 pm »

Quote
I get great service buying frams from Frame Fit in Philadelphia, fome cores from Framingsupplies.com,  and pre cut mats from the Mat Shop in Calif.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Do you have the URL for the Mat Shop?  Found a shop by that name in Blaine,
Washington but nothing in California.

Jim
Logged

Dave Gurtcheff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 661
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 03:24:54 pm »

Quote
Do you have the URL for the Mat Shop?  Found a shop by that name in Blaine,
Washington but nothing in California.

Jim
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
jim: It is here:

[a href=\"http://www.matshop.com/]http://www.matshop.com/[/url]
I thought it was in California, but I may be mistaken. I might add that when I call them and order in the states, they take my order, but the mats are shipped from Canada. Don't know why, and it makes no difference to me. They have very good service, and I have purchased a lot of pre cut mats from them.
Good luck
Dave G. in NJ
Logged

dkabat

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2007, 04:23:27 pm »

Thanks Dave that was a great help.

Dan
Logged

fdi

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 52
    • http://www.framedestination.com/
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 06:09:22 pm »

Quote
I thought it was in California, but I may be mistaken.

Matshop is located in Canada. They are one of our competitors. I have not heard anything bad about them, they were more focused on mats and carry different products.

Cheers,
Mark
Frame Destination, Inc.
http://www.framedestination.com
Logged
Mark Rogers
Frame Destination [url=https

Nill Toulme

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 738
    • http://www.toulmephoto.com
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 09:59:35 pm »

Footnote:  13x19 paper cut in half makes a nice size for 8x12 prints.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
Logged

bheiser

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
    • Bill Heiser Photography
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2007, 01:51:42 pm »

Quote
Have just started printing with the 3800 in the last few months and was thinking that it might be a good idea to standardize print sizes for matting and framing purposes.  I think by doing this I can buy mats and frames in bulk, also it should help workflow a little.

Am interested in using 3 paper sizes - 8.5x11, 13x19 and 17x22.  You suggestions as to print size for each and a mat border size recommendation would be appreciated.

Any other comments also welcome.

Thanks
Dan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135106\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm in a similar position, so this thread is interesting.  I, too, recently got my 3800, and so far have been printing 8x10's and 11x14's for mounting in standard pre-cut mats.  I've been using 11x14 mats (8x10) opening, and 16x10 mats (11x14 opening).

However because I have to crop my images severely to fit those dimensions, I'm noticing a considerable lack of sharpness in my prints.  I'm only working with 6MP images, so I suspect the cropping is a real issue.  I'm using Photoshop CS3 for cropping, using the methods it recommends based on the direction of my cropping.

On occasion I've seen prints matted, where the image size is smaller than the actual opening in the mat.  For example, I'm experimenting with an uncropped image which prints (at 360dpi for the 3800) at 5.5 x 8.5.  This leaves a border around the image inside the mat opening.  At this uncropped size, the image appears much sharper than the cropped ones.

Is this practice considered "acceptable".  Is there room for "artistic freedom" with this, or are there established guidelines or "best practices" on this sort of thing?
Logged

sojournerphoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 473
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2007, 03:34:38 pm »

Quote
I'm in a similar position, so this thread is interesting.  I, too, recently got my 3800, and so far have been printing 8x10's and 11x14's for mounting in standard pre-cut mats.  I've been using 11x14 mats (8x10) opening, and 16x10 mats (11x14 opening).

However because I have to crop my images severely to fit those dimensions, I'm noticing a considerable lack of sharpness in my prints.  I'm only working with 6MP images, so I suspect the cropping is a real issue.  I'm using Photoshop CS3 for cropping, using the methods it recommends based on the direction of my cropping.

On occasion I've seen prints matted, where the image size is smaller than the actual opening in the mat.  For example, I'm experimenting with an uncropped image which prints (at 360dpi for the 3800) at 5.5 x 8.5.  This leaves a border around the image inside the mat opening.  At this uncropped size, the image appears much sharper than the cropped ones.

Is this practice considered "acceptable".  Is there room for "artistic freedom" with this, or are there established guidelines or "best practices" on this sort of thing?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153645\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Cropping shouldn't directly lead to unsharp images. Upressing may lead to a noticeable loss of detail - look at one of Michael's Madagascar images on the road - so you may be are doing more than you think when cropping.

Perhaps you could run through your typical process.

By way of info I print according to what I think the image needs and offer sizes that I think are appropriate. Sometimes that means a crop, other time not. I either get prints matted by a trusted local frameshop or do anything up to 40inches per side myself (as an IPF5000 used that really means up to a mat of 40 by 22 or 24.

I'm also starting making my own frames for smaller work.

Mike
Logged

bheiser

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
    • Bill Heiser Photography
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 07:39:10 pm »

Quote
Cropping shouldn't directly lead to unsharp images. Upressing may lead to a noticeable loss of detail - look at one of Michael's Madagascar images on the road - so you may be are doing more than you think when cropping.

Perhaps you could run through your typical process.

...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the suggestion.  I think you're right - my workflow is just what I've cobbled together from taking bits and pieces of what I've read on various sites.  I'm not convinced it's the "right" workflow.  I'm probably doing something to clobber the images.

I've managed to get them to look "ok" but definitely nowhere near how I want them to look.

What I've put together so far is something like this:

1.  load the raw file [question here of what dpi I should use reading the file.  Default from my D70 in ACR is 72.  Default for the D300 is 240.  I need to end up with 360 for printing on the Epson 3800.]

2.  Some combination of edits, usually Levels, Curves, etc in PS CS3.  My goal (which I rarely achieve so far) is to (as they say) "make the image really pop".  So I increase saturation (but only by a tiny bit from the D300, more from the D70), and use Curves to increase contrast.

3.  I typically want to end up with an "edited" file that I can then later use for various print sizes, say 11x14 and 8x10.  So at this point I save the edited file in a "edited-not-sized" directory.

4.  Then for each size print I want I do something like this:

5.  Load the edited-not-sized file into PS CS3.

6.  [this is a step I have just refined based on a tutorial on [a href=\"http://www.lynda.com]http://www.lynda.com[/url].  In Image Size dialog, turn resample off, then change PPI to 360, and OK.

7.  Then in Image Size dialog again, turn re-sample on, and set the right dimension for the shortest side of the image (e.g. "8").  That results in something that's 8" wide, but longer than 10".  For this step I use Bicubic Smoother (best for enlargement) because the image size I want is usually greater than what's displayed in the Image Size dialog box.

10.  Then go to the crop tool, and set dimensions of 8x10, set Resolution to 360, and crop.  My PS default Image Interpolation setting is set for Bicubic Sharper (best for reduction) since at this point I'm actually reducing.

11.  Then use Unsharp Mask, usually around 100%, radius 3 [honestly I'm not really sure what's right here, but these are values I picked up somewhere in a tutorial].  I've also used radius 1, and %'s varying from about 50 to 120].

12.  Then I save & print the file.  In the print dialog I use 2880x1440dpi, no color adjustment, Photoshop manages colors, the profile for the paper I'm using, and Rendering Intent: Perceptual, and uncheck Black Point Compensation.

I've hesitated to post this here becuase I suspect there probably as many different workflows as there are photographers (and because I am not sure this flow even makes sense .
Logged

sojournerphoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 473
Standard print and mat sizes
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2007, 08:58:48 pm »

Hi

I'm sure that workflows do vary quite a bit, but here are a few thoughts:) Also Camera to Print is useful I think - Lightroom and ACR are very similar and have the same engine inside.

1. Don't worry about dpi at this stage of the workflow. Do learn to use ACR/LR/other as well as you can to get the best overall image into photoshop. I'm still learning loads and recently have been amazed at how far you can pull an image in LR and still get ded=cent prints.

2. I tend to do levels, curves, colour work local contrast enhancement (usm with radius 30 to 60 and amount 10 to 30) and creative sharpwning/blurring in CS3, using masking, blending options to protect highlights and blacks and luminosity blend mode for curve/levels adjustments on rgb.

3. yes, save a master file at original resolution.

5. yes

6 and 7. I wouldn't do this at this stage.

10. I wouldn't fix the resolution at this stage. If you want to fix the aspect ratio just leave the resolution to fall where it falls. In your workflow you will actually be upressing the file at this stage if you crop in both directions.

11. use image size to check your output resolution (no resizing yet) as this will guide your output sharpening. For output sharpening you could use usm, smart sharpen or a plugin like photokit. The radius and amount required will depend on resolution, media, subject and print size! By way of illustration yesterday I printed a set of wedding album pages at image sizes from 8 by 5 up to 12 by 8 on innova smooth rag paper. Native resolution varied from about 250ppi to 550ppi and I used usm with radius ranging from 1.9 down to 1.1 and amount from 100% up to 175%. I also sharpened on a layer and masked some areas:) Basically I find matte rag paper needs more sharpening than glossies and more detail means lower radius. resize without interpolation if necessary.

12. It's not clear if you are converting to the output profile or not here. If not this would explain why prints aren't working. If the printer doesn't manage the colours then you need to either convert to the paper profile in CS3 or tell the driver to do it. Also, what is your working profile in CS3?

Finally, a couple of other thoughts:

- the print driver will interpolate your data for you without the need yo do it in CS3. My IPF5000 allows me to use bicubic so I usually just let it, but you would need to do a side by side test of the driver against CS3 resizing to decide which worked best for you.

- Softproofing is really useful when you get the colour management sorted out. Particularly on matte papers it makes a huge difference to output quality.

Hope there is something of help in there:)

Mike


Quote
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the suggestion.  I think you're right - my workflow is just what I've cobbled together from taking bits and pieces of what I've read on various sites.  I'm not convinced it's the "right" workflow.  I'm probably doing something to clobber the images.

I've managed to get them to look "ok" but definitely nowhere near how I want them to look.

What I've put together so far is something like this:

1.  load the raw file [question here of what dpi I should use reading the file.  Default from my D70 in ACR is 72.  Default for the D300 is 240.  I need to end up with 360 for printing on the Epson 3800.]

2.  Some combination of edits, usually Levels, Curves, etc in PS CS3.  My goal (which I rarely achieve so far) is to (as they say) "make the image really pop".  So I increase saturation (but only by a tiny bit from the D300, more from the D70), and use Curves to increase contrast.

3.  I typically want to end up with an "edited" file that I can then later use for various print sizes, say 11x14 and 8x10.  So at this point I save the edited file in a "edited-not-sized" directory.

4.  Then for each size print I want I do something like this:

5.  Load the edited-not-sized file into PS CS3.

6.  [this is a step I have just refined based on a tutorial on http://www.lynda.com.  In Image Size dialog, turn resample off, then change PPI to 360, and OK.

7.  Then in Image Size dialog again, turn re-sample on, and set the right dimension for the shortest side of the image (e.g. "8").  That results in something that's 8" wide, but longer than 10".  For this step I use Bicubic Smoother (best for enlargement) because the image size I want is usually greater than what's displayed in the Image Size dialog box.

10.  Then go to the crop tool, and set dimensions of 8x10, set Resolution to 360, and crop.  My PS default Image Interpolation setting is set for Bicubic Sharper (best for reduction) since at this point I'm actually reducing.

11.  Then use Unsharp Mask, usually around 100%, radius 3 [honestly I'm not really sure what's right here, but these are values I picked up somewhere in a tutorial].  I've also used radius 1, and %'s varying from about 50 to 120].

12.  Then I save & print the file.  In the print dialog I use 2880x1440dpi, no color adjustment, Photoshop manages colors, the profile for the paper I'm using, and Rendering Intent: Perceptual, and uncheck Black Point Compensation.

I've hesitated to post this here becuase I suspect there probably as many different workflows as there are photographers (and because I am not sure this flow even makes sense .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156263\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up