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Author Topic: Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???  (Read 32644 times)

pixjohn

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2007, 02:34:16 pm »

What did Hasselblad have to say? I have been looking at other solution, and asked Hasselblad with no answer?

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Oh please don't bring that guy into this... there's nothg wrong or needs to be fixed with Hassleblad backs or lenses. I've heard his story and also heard Hasselblad's end of it as well. Until you hear both sides, please don't base your decision on one's persons bitterness.....

Respectfully,
P.
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josayeruk

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2007, 02:34:58 pm »

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Oh please don't bring that guy into this... there's nothg wrong or needs to be fixed with Hassleblad backs or lenses. I've heard his story and also heard Hasselblad's end of it as well. Until you hear both sides, please don't base your decision on one's persons bitterness.....

Respectfully,
P.
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Indeed...

Many people tried to help him on the FlexFrame user group with real answers and he wasn't too polite about it.

Jo S.x
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uaiomex

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2007, 02:45:57 pm »

It is very easy to figure it out, that Michael has the means to move to another system with little or no harm at all. If I am correct, Michael's point is from the photojornalist perspective, but as a very active photographer himself, he gets emotional about it.
It's up to any of his readers to believe in his honesty or not.
Regards
Eduardo

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If you could approach this with an open mind at this point(sure!), I think you would find that you actually have an excellent option.  If the new 28mm lens and T/S lens are really that critical to your style of shooting, why not consider selling your P45+ and trading in your H2 body for an H3D. You might actually make money in the process. I firmly believe that you would find that the H3D-39 produces digital files that are the equal of the P45+. There are many who have done the comparison and reached that conclusion.
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eronald

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2007, 03:10:21 pm »

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John,

Wonder no more... my day job:
http://www.peterschafrick.com/

Anything else I can help you out with today?
Best.
Peter.
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Nice imagery! You are definitely an asset to this forum !

Edmund
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psp

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2007, 03:22:32 pm »

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Nice imagery! You are definitely an asset to this forum !

Edmund
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Flattery will get you everywhere! ;-)

Thanks for the kind words Edmund.



Cheers!
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psp

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2007, 03:49:29 pm »

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Nice imagery! You are definitely an asset to this forum !

Edmund
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Which back do you own Edmund and what kind of work do you do?
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eronald

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2007, 04:43:25 pm »

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Which back do you own Edmund and what kind of work do you do?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I own no back. Yet.  I will have one within two months. I have Canon equipment, an 1Ds and 1Ds2, but the 1Ds is doing all the work. I shoot runway fashion a few times a year, and much more rarely editorial. Sometimes I sell a print in a gallery or direct.

Mostly everybody in the industry speaks to me due to my camera profiling and blogging activities; for instance Christian Poulsen of Hassleblad gave me an hour of hist time at Photokina. Very bright and charismatic guy who has practiced commercial photography, and also understands the technical aspects of digital imaging but still gives the biggest weight to the marketing issues.  Reminds me of Steve Jobs

Edmund
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godtfred

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2007, 05:43:11 pm »

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This LINK (PDN) is a good example why I would not consider shooting Hasselblad at this time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would have to work quite hard to get a file that bad from my H3D, the image seems very fuzzy and unsharp, something I don't experience at all with either of my lenses (35 included.)

To me it looks like he's either done something wrong, or just got a "lemon" camera.

-axel
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Quentin

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2007, 05:58:56 pm »

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Michael,


If you were a little less critical of Hasselblad (still trying to figure out your MO on this one) you might be privy to information concerning the the status of the tilt/shift lens. But publicly bashing any company won't make you and friends there.

And as a bitter and unhappy stake-holder, why not demonstrate your displeasure and divest of your Hasselblad holdings? That should really 'teach' Hasselblad, eh?!

Alternatively, you can put your bitterness aside and buy the 28mm and the HD3 and get on with it. Because quite frankly, being bitter and trying to tell anyone how to run their business is in no one's best interest.

Of course, just my opinion.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And in my opinion, those who lie down in the road tend to get run over.

It is in everyone's best interests for there to be as much competition as possible. A closed system discourages this.  I don't own Hasselblad kit, and their current strategy makes it pretty certain I never will.

Quentin
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 05:59:27 pm by Quentin »
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Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, Arbitrato

psp

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2007, 06:40:50 pm »

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And in my opinion, those who lie down in the road tend to get run over.

It is in everyone's best interests for there to be as much competition as possible. A closed system discourages this.  I don't own Hasselblad kit, and their current strategy makes it pretty certain I never will.

Quentin
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How does a supposed 'closed' system discourage competition?

Canon and Nikon can be considered closed systems - as well as Olympus. Why the fuss over Hasselblad?

Look here - some photographers have complained about the lack of features in medium format compared to 35mm. So when a manufacturer steps up to the plate and offers as good or better features, they complain as well.

Has no one thought that perhaps Hasselblad will eventually be competing directly with Canon and Nikon? And you need a proper integration between back, camera and lens to do that. What is so terribly wrong with that? It's an incredible piece of gear, the H3D. It can be argued that other medium format manufacturers are years behind the H3D because they lack that integration. IF Hasselblad has, like Michael and others state, made a terrible mistake, then only time will tell. Until then, comments relating to this remain opinions rather than fact.

Hasselblad's management and leaders have more respect in my books than any individual member on this forum. I tend to believe that their decisions are well thought out. They have more at 'stake' than a few H bodies.

You still have plenty of choices within the Hasselblad family and outside the Hasselblad family. How is offering an integrated medium format camera lessen competition?

I don't own a Mamiya, nor a Leaf or Phase back - but because I don't doesn't mean I'm obligated in some way to ridicule them.



Best,


P.
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Quentin

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2007, 06:49:07 pm »

Who said anything about ridiculing them?

Its called "feedback".  Companies are supposed to use it to assist in making decisions about their future direction.  My feedback says "you got it wrong" but they are free to disagree.


Quentin
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psp

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2007, 06:55:23 pm »

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Who said anything about ridiculing them?

Its called "feedback".  Companies are supposed to use it to assist in making decisions about their future direction.  My feedback says "you got it wrong" but they are free to disagree.
Quentin
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How on earth can you give feedback when you don't own the product?

I'd bet that Hasselblad (actually any company) values the feedback of their actual customers more than those who are not customers.... and I bet those decisions were made based on customers feedback long before products are even announced.....
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hubell

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2007, 09:38:36 pm »

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And in my opinion, those who lie down in the road tend to get run over.

It is in everyone's best interests for there to be as much competition as possible. A closed system discourages this.  I don't own Hasselblad kit, and their current strategy makes it pretty certain I never will.

Quentin
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How much time have you spent actually shooting with an H3D?

etrump

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2007, 12:16:08 am »

One of my main reasons for going with Mamiya and Phase was due to the closed nature of the H3D.  

I am new to MF and that idea simply scared me off.

How many others took their 30-40k elsewhere for similar reasons?

Mamiya has had its problems but leaf and phase will have no choice but to strongly promote the platform.
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ErikKaffehr

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2007, 01:17:41 am »

Hi,

I would think that what DAC can correct for is vignetting, distorsion and possibly chromatic aberration. Correction of each of these defects is quite easy and would be specific for each lens.

These problems are easily corrected in many tools. Lightroom unfortunately does not have distorsion correction, which is a very bad thing I hope Adobe will fix ASAP if not sooner. :-)

Not fully correcting for the above problems would probably make it much easier to produce a lens.

It is also conceivable that software could improve on sharpness, by using some kind of  deconvolution. This kind of deconvolution is possible in DxO and DxO has also methods for determining the needed deconvolution.

My opinion is that Hasselblad is depriving their customers the option of using the best combination of software and sensor technology. I think that Hasselblad should left the H3 open and fully integrated with the older systems. Hasselblad could then say that you need to use Hasselblad backs to fully utilize some advantages of the system.

Best regards

Erik
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No flaming, just, hopefully, reasoned discussion. Addressing your points....

The only substantive difference between between what DAC does and what DxO does is that DxO does it go correct residual optical defects in lenses. DAC is intended to correct optical deficiencies that were intentionally left in the lens so as to reduce manufacturing and design costs. Source – publicly made statements by Hasselblad at Photokina.

Your statement that "changing from Sinar to Leaf on a Hy6 platform will be more costly than staying with the back (Sinar or Leaf) of your choice" is factually incorrect. A Hy6 body will not cost $30,000. And, unlike in the Hasselblad situation, Hy6 prisms, lenses, and accessories will not be rendered unusable if one changes between Leaf and Sinar backs (or possibly others as yet unannounced).

Hasselblad is a private company (owned by Shiro Group) and thus their finances are not public. But, from a press presentation made by Poulsen at Photokina it was clear that though things seem to be improving, there is still substantial headway to be made to turn Hasselblad around financially.

I get your jibe about "stakeholder", but possibly you are unaware of the usage of the term in financial circles. It refers to those that who, though not shareholders, have a stake in the success or failure of the company. This includes company workers as well as those with a strong vested interest in the company's products.

I'll also take the opportunity to address the point made by another poster that this issue has been rehashed many times.  I've hardly mentioned it once since reporting on it nearly a year ago, after Photokina. But it does come up whenever new lenses are discussed, and that was the case when someone posted a question about the new T/S lens, which started this thread.

It seems to me fair game to bring to the attention of anyone interested in this new lens that only those with an H3D will be able to use it, and that the tens of thousands of photographers with H1 and H2 Hasselblad have been frozen out, unless, of course, they decide to sell their Phase, Leaf or Sinar backs and purchase a new body and back from Hasselblad.

Not a closed system huh?
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Erik Kaffehr
 

godtfred

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2007, 02:46:28 am »

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Mamiya has had its problems but leaf and phase will have no choice but to strongly promote the platform.
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Leaf is introducing its Afi shortly, so I guess the ball is in P1's backyard... and from here I can't see who's playing...
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Axel Bauer
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Dustbak

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2007, 03:05:34 am »

I totally agree that the more the back/camera/lens combination is integrated the better a system can work. This part of the Hasselblad strategy is probably sound and has not been in discussion by anyone as far as I know.

The argument that Hasselblad 'closed' its system just to be able to get a better integrated solution for us I find balony. I find it a bit insulting when that is used as an argument to defend closing their system.

It would have been not too difficult for Hasselblad to supply third parties with either development kits or specifications on how to communicate with their equipment. Maybe they will eventually, after they made sure all their own products are compatible with each other (eg. CF39 with the H3).

This would make it interesting for third parties to develop for Hasselblad products as well. Yes, one could argument that they might also make products that compete with Hasselblads. This would give more flexibility and options to photographers, I don't see where this is wrong (for photographers I mean)?
 
BTW. The Hy6 appears to be going exactly the same route.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 03:08:06 am by Dustbak »
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etrump

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2007, 09:49:59 am »

If Hassy was really worried only about quality issues I could understand not making the newer lenses compatible with older systems.  

That said, if that was their only concern why not open the h3 specifications?
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Ed Cooley
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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2007, 10:16:19 am »

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My opinion is that Hasselblad is depriving their customers the option of using the best combination of software and sensor technology.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133752\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What?!

The best combination of software and sensor technology combination is the H3D, whether you use wide angle or not, no? I would argue that an integrated solution is superior. Do you not think an H3D/with H lens is a superior camera to say an H1, with a V series lens with a non-Hasselblad back? I don't think so!

If you haven't already noticed, Hasselblad is in the camera and back business. They have the ability to therefore develop unique benefits with this integration. This deprives their customers of nothing. Instead it gives their customers the opportunity to take advantage of these benefits. All while still allowing anyone without a Hasselblad back to still use the Hasselblad camera and the majority of their lenses.

There seems to be a lot of displeasure that Hasselblad is pushing the envelope and providing real solutions & benefits to photographers. I still don't understand this.
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Dustbak

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Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2007, 11:15:53 am »

Patrick,

I think you are reading selectively, most people do aplaud most of the things Hasselblad does however some things are not well received.

The motive behind closing their system has nothing to do with bringing solutions or benefits to photographers. The same solutions and benefits will be there when they would provide open specifications or developer kits.

Actually an open system would potentially provide more solutions and benefits.
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