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Author Topic: Fibre Based Papers  (Read 20697 times)

Roaring Bearcub

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« on: July 12, 2007, 08:18:51 am »

Okay, apologies again about my previous QTR post...

Now - so far, what do you people think is the most successful fibre-paper around now, and what are you looking forward to?

So far, there's Innova (think they have 3 types?), Hahnemuhle FAP, Crane Silver Rag, Harman FB Matt, Moab Colorado (2 types)... think there's a British paper... feel free to add anything else.

And Harman is making their glossy version FB paper and a warmtone, while Hahnemuhle is promising a new baryta paper:

Hahnemuhle Baryta Paper

Right now seems like a great level of choice is becoming available, and now would be a great time to do a comprehensive review, in the style of Mr. Reichmann, Peter Myers and Richard Lohmann have already done.

I'm eager to try out the new papers - so far, my personal favourite has been Silver Rag, and I'm interested to learn about your own opinions now that the industry appears to be maturing.

I'm curious.

Thanks in advance!



- Andrew.
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Christopher

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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2007, 08:34:41 am »

I tried most of them except the new HM, because it is not yet avaliable.

I settled with the HM Photo Rag Pearl, I think it is the best paper out there. Not cheap but very nice surface and gamut, D-max is very good. Another benefit is that it uses no OB at all.
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marcsitkin

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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2007, 09:08:09 am »

I've just printed an edition for a photographer artist of 36x50 inch prints. The photos were studio shots of orchids and other flowers, printed on an HP Z3100. I used Moab Entrada 300 gsm, which is an Optical brightener free paper. The prints were stunning, with nice rich color and inky black backgrounds. The client was ecstatic. I've gone through 3 rolls of the material at this point without a hitch. Not sure it's the best out there, but it worked for me.
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 Marc Sitkin www.digitalmomentum

dbell

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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2007, 04:11:26 pm »

This is very subjective. Of the current crop of glossy fibre-based inkjet papers, I like Silver Rag the best. It suits my work well. I used to try out every new paper  I could get my hands on, but I don't have time to do much testing any more. I'd still consider switching to something new if it really impressed me, but it would have to really impress me.


--
Daniel Bell
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Colorwave

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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2007, 03:04:58 am »

The Harman Hi- Matte Finish paper sounds like it uses the same Baryta coating as the unreleased Hahnemuhle paper.  Can anybody that has used it comment on the print quality and the surface?  I'm interested in trying it in my Z3100, but it never seems to be mentioned by anyone.  I have a client asking for something as close to a Lightjet/C-Print surface and it sounds like it it may be smoother than other fiber based photo paper for inkjet.
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John R Smith

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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2007, 03:31:56 am »

I have used the Harman FB Matt extensively, both on an HP 8750 with the Vivera photo-grey inkset and on my Epson R2400 more recently. I have had excellent results using the Epson Advanced B/W mode and the recommended paper setting of Watercolor Radiant White with the K3 inkset. In fact, I found shadow detail and solid blacks to be better than with Hahnemuhle Photo Rag. The surface is certainly very smooth, smoother than the Hahnemuhle. One issue I do have with the Harman paper is that the surface is very delicate and (too) easily marked, but this is true of very many other matt papers too.

Best regards

John
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neil snape

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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2007, 04:07:24 am »

Ilford had a Baryte (Fibre Base ) look a like too that I saw at PPE NY last year. The Innova is the nicest I've seen so far but it has a lot of OBA.
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madmanchan

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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2007, 09:52:01 am »

Neil, which flavor of the Innova FibaPrint papers do you use?
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Eric Chan

jjlphoto

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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2007, 12:44:31 pm »

I also tested Museo Silver Rag, but wound up preferring Innova Fibaprint F-Gloss in Brilliant white. (They have a warm white, and a semi-matte also)

Traditional darkroom guys I showed it to preferred is as well.  

Excuse my ignorance, but what is Baryta paper?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 12:45:08 pm by jjlphoto »
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eleanorbrown

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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2007, 12:58:14 pm »

I have settled on Crane Museo Silver Rag and hahuemuhle Photo Rag Pearl.  I would like to know what "baryta" means as well.  Is it different from a "glossy" surface?  If not, why say baryta instead of just plain glossy?  Eleanor

Quote
I also tested Museo Silver Rag, but wound up preferring Innova Fibaprint F-Gloss in Brilliant white. (They have a warm white, and a semi-matte also)

Traditional darkroom guys I showed it to preferred is as well. 

Excuse my ignorance, but what is Baryta paper?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Eleanor Brown
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2007, 03:18:08 pm »

Quote
I have settled on Crane Museo Silver Rag and hahuemuhle Photo Rag Pearl.  I would like to know what "baryta" means as well.  Is it different from a "glossy" surface?  If not, why say baryta instead of just plain glossy?  Eleanor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135459\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Before digital, fibre-based darkroom printing paper consisted of a paper base on which was a layer of a compound of Barium known as Baryta. The emulsion was then coated on this Baryta layer.

Resin-coated (RC) papers have a polyethylene layer on top (instead of Baryta) and on bottom to keep chemicals from soaking into the paper.

Thus, I expect that the new "Baryta" inkjet papers may have a Baryta layer just in an attempt to make the surface look like a traditional photographic print. I hope this helps.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 03:18:44 pm by EricM »
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neil snape

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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2007, 03:18:13 pm »

Quote
Neil, which flavor of the Innova FibaPrint papers do you use?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fibra Ultra Smooth is the closest to fibre based baryta if you like that I have seen. Probably works better on an Epson than HP but I still love the feel and look of the surface for B&W on whatever printer I've seen it on.
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OnyimBob

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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2007, 03:50:07 pm »

Anybody have any experience with the new Museo Portfolio Rag?
Bob.
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madmanchan

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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2007, 04:16:51 pm »

Similar to Museo Max, but smoother surface. Holds the K3 inks well without mottling. D-max of about 1.64 in RGB mode and ABW mode. Meant to be used with Matte Black ink, not Photo Black ink, and hence is different from the other papers mentioned here so far.
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Eric Chan

eleanorbrown

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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2007, 06:19:43 pm »

I love inkjet b&w on this Innova paper.  Only problem...the paper is 285 grams and too lightweight (expensive too).  I'm really looking forward to the new Hahnemuhle fiber gloss (baryta) paper.  Believe it is something like 325 grams which is a nice weight. Eleanor

Quote
Fibra Ultra Smooth is the closest to fibre based baryta if you like that I have seen. Probably works better on an Epson than HP but I still love the feel and look of the surface for B&W on whatever printer I've seen it on.
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Colorwave

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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2007, 12:07:45 am »

I just tried some of the Harman Matte FP.  It is very smooth and very matte.  It prints nicely, but boy is it a fragile surface.  White cotton gloves, with only the slightest sideways swipe, left a mark.  The HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art is much more durable, but with a toothier, more velvety surface.  DMax, between the two papers, is pretty comparable visually.
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Colorwave

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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2007, 01:34:58 am »

I have a pretty new printer, so I'm doing a lot of paper sampling right now.  I just tried the Museo Silver Rag and I'm not particularly impressed.  I find the surface to be shinier than I would like and more annoying, it seems to suffer from severe bronzing.  I tried full coverage gloss enhancer and still found the bronzing to be quite pronounced.  I have a Z3100 with APS and used the recommended paper setting of Custom>Fine Art Pearl and made a custom profile with GE on.  Interestingly, I haven't heard others complain of this with the Silver Rag.  I will test a clear spray tomorrow, but don't know that it stands a very good shot at solving the problem.  

I tried spraying the Harman Matte FP to make the surface less fragile and it worked well enough that I am willing to use this paper in printing for others, with a caveat that it must still be handled more carefully than most prints.  It has a smooth plate quality that I have not seen in any other paper yet and holds impressive detail.

I'm still searching for something with a smooth surface and a very minimal sheen.  For a glossier look, HP Professional Satin is still my favorite stock, but to my eye it is a good bit shinier than what I would describe as a satin finish with GE.  Again, what I like most is the smooth finish and great definition I get with it.

I like what I read about the finish of the Inova Ultra Smooth, but worry that the Alpha Cellulose base will impact the perceived value in higher end fine art circles.  Is this an issue for anybody else?

Please keep the paper suggestions and feedback coming. . .
-Ron
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2007, 02:56:15 am »

Quote
I like what I read about the finish of the Inova Ultra Smooth, but worry that the Alpha Cellulose base will impact the perceived value in higher end fine art circles.  Is this an issue for anybody else?

-Ron
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


In general: buffered alpha cellulose base is in no way inferior to rag material on archival qualities. Higher end fine art circles are usually overrated on their knowledge of media choices.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Colorwave

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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2007, 11:00:34 pm »

Quote
In general: buffered alpha cellulose base is in no way inferior to rag material on archival qualities. Higher end fine art circles are usually overrated on their knowledge of media choices.
Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Understood, Ernst, and total agreement about the expertise of many fine art purchasers, galleries and often museums.  My question was about the perceived value, not the quality or longevity per se.  I'm about to print some 44" x 44" images for a solo show in a high end New York gallery, and the photographer had concerns about the acceptance of the paper by the art establishment, more than concerns about the paper itself.
Thanks,
Ron
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 11:02:47 pm by Colorwave »
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2007, 04:57:07 am »

Quote
My question was about the perceived value, not the quality or longevity per se.  I'm about to print some 44" x 44" images for a solo show in a high end New York gallery, and the photographer had concerns about the acceptance of the paper by the art establishment, more than concerns about the paper itself.
Thanks,
Ron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136481\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's why I put it that way. To allow any commercial decision after that statement. This is something I'm faced with too and I could throw in thick reports about the archival quality of alpha cellulose but that would look like a desperate attempt in their eyes while if you give them any rag paper with OBA's and a lousy inkjet coating there will be no complaint. Till they go to the next congress on archiving and the opinions are reversed for some months.

Ernst Dinkla
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