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Author Topic: MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?  (Read 39254 times)

Dustbak

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2007, 04:52:34 pm »

Quote
Sorry, I have to chime in here.

Dealer support and added service is a lot more than just tech support.

With a good dealer you can walk in, arrange a demo and compare three different models head to head. You can get information on different camera systems. You can get rentals of the more esoteric things, usually at a discount if you already own a MFDB from them. You have someone to go to when you're ready to upgrade or update. You have the convenience and security of a real contact that you can actually talk to not send an e mail and hope for an answer. You have someone that will make sure you get every last ounce of quality and efficiency out of your investment so that you end up making more money and you have yet another networking contact.

If you still want a deep deep discount, I'm sure there are plenty of gray market "dealers" out there that may or may not be around 6 months from now when you do need something else.

I'm getting off my soapbox now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Excuse me but in my book most of these things you mention fall under sales efforts, this is exactly why I am wondering since when is this promoted to something spectacular.

Maybe you are missing my point. I do not mind paying someone for added service I request but do I have a choice?
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bwpuk

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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2007, 04:53:02 pm »

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First of all, while the list prices of the mainstream digital backs seem shockingly high in comparison to the Mamiya backs, no one that I've heard of pays those prices. I certainly paid nowhere near list for my P45+. MFDB's can be had, brand new, for shockingly large discounts off of list.

Second, the Mamiya back is a smaller sized chip with only 22 MP. After discounts, I doubt the mainstream backs with the same sized sensor would be that much more (OK, I'd guess maybe 50% more, but certainly within spitting distance).

Third, it will probably all be a moot point, since Canon will be releasing their 22 MP, 14-bit 1DsIII soon, and most people won't be able to see any real difference between the Canon and Mamiya images (just my opinion). Mamiya is only a small shock to the MF pricing compared to what Canon is going to do with the 1DsIII. I think 22 MP MFDB will practically disappear, or be sold at huge discounts, once the new Canon arrives. Once that happens, MFDB manufacturers will simply concentrate on even higher MP backs, since they can do so without the compromises that the 35mm format imposes.

Just my $0.02 worth.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

How much did you pay for your P45+ then ?  You know if there are discounts to be had lets have a level playing field for buyers everywhere. Prices in the USA are so much cheaper than in Europe, why?

No matter how good the new Canon is when it finally arrives it's file won't look like a MFDB file. There will be no comparison. The 'look' will be very different even though the resolution might be the same.

How many more megapixels do we need? I reckon most of the people who own a 39mp back will never use it to it's full potential. It's probably more a question of ego. You know the  "my back has more megapixels than yours"  syndrome.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 05:05:35 pm by bwpuk »
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Barrie Watts
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Joe Behar

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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2007, 05:07:31 pm »

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Excuse me but in my book most of these things you mention fall under sales efforts, this is exactly why I am wondering since when is this promoted to something spectacular.

Maybe you are missing my point. I do not mind paying someone for added service I request but do I have a choice?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think I get your point exactly....

But honestly, do you think that these "sales efforts" come free?

Compared to someone that sets up a website, posts a ridiculously low price, has no knowledgeable staff and keeps no inventory at all, let alone demo equipment, yes I think this is spectacular.

There is an old saying among retailers...

Great service
Great selection
Great price

Choose any two

That is the reality of the world...and that is also my last comment on this.
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uaiomex

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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2007, 05:13:41 pm »

I may be wrong at figures. Hard to believe that in the time humanity double in numbers, there are 50% less pro photographers working. That accounts to a relative 25% shrinkage.

Maybe in your cities. Because in my city there are tenfold more pros than 30 years ago. All using dslr's because present prices of dmfb's are out of our league.
But I would expect to see a couple of ZD backs by end of the year. I´d rather wait to see if Hasselblad comes with a better offer than the CFV. Nice try, but not quite. (at least not for me).

Eduardo



[quote=mattlap2,Jun 12 2007, 12:2
That is where you are very wrong ....  there are fewer photographers than there were 30 years ago.   By quite a large number.    The market has shrunk tremendously.   There was an industry study done by the Photo Marketing Association a few years ago ....I actually believe it was right at the Millenium comparing 2000 to 1970 ....and they found that the market had shrunk by almost 50%.

Businesses have consolidated ....eliminating many corporate photo studios.   Just think of how many colleagues we have watched close their studios and leave the business.  

It is definitely a shrinking market ....rather than a growing one.
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feppe

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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2007, 05:24:10 pm »

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How much did you pay for your P45+ then ?  You know if there are discounts to be had lets have a level playing field for buyers everywhere. Prices in the USA are so much cheaper than in Europe, why?
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Taxes.

bwpuk

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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2007, 05:33:21 pm »

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Taxes.
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What taxes are these? Aren't these backs mostly made in Europe anyway? I know we have to pay 17.5% VAT in the UK, but I could fly to the USA and get one much cheaper. Except they wouldn't sell one to me if they knew I came from the UK. I presume American importers have to pay duty to get the stuff into their country as well as charge their state purchase tax on top.
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feppe

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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2007, 05:52:42 pm »

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What taxes are these? Aren't these backs mostly made in Europe anyway? I know we have to pay 17.5% VAT in the UK, but I could fly to the USA and get one much cheaper. Except they wouldn't sell one to me if they knew I came from the UK. I presume American importers have to pay duty to get the stuff into their country as well as charge their state purchase tax on top.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not so simple. Almost all taxes are higher in Europe. That means that not only are we paying for higher VAT (~ 15-22% in Europe, compared to sales taxes of ~ 0-5% in US IIRC), but we are paying higher taxes on wages, raw materials, transportation, energy, etc. etc., in addition to higher social security costs, higher labor costs, higher financing costs, labor market rigidities, fewer working hours, less efficient financial markets, etc. etc. All of this compounds - snowballs - into the outrageous price differentials we see in cameras and other goods, differentials which can't be explained away by mere import duties or exchange rate differentials.

I wouldn't be surprised if Europeans pay higher margins on goods just because we're used to outrageous prices. But the main reason why everything is so expensive here is to pay for all the public goods through taxes. So, the next time you pay 100% more on a camera you can dwell on the warm and fuzzy feeling you get from the knowledge of providing for a public opera house, or the replacement liver for the guy who's dying due to 30 years of alcoholism.

eronald

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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2007, 06:03:08 pm »

Ok, let's hear some pricing, while we're in the mood for it.

I would expect the Mamiya kit also gets discounted from list.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 06:05:00 pm by eronald »
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mattlap2

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« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2007, 06:20:17 pm »

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Ok, let's hear some pricing, while we're in the mood for it.

I would expect the Mamiya kit also gets discounted from list.

Edmund
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Ronald ....

The price listed in the Mamiya USA press release are listed as street price ...not list.   So I am sure that is the US MAP.   From what I hear the margins that are being given to dealers are small enough that I doubt you will see much in the way of discounting from most sources.
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bwpuk

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« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2007, 06:34:59 pm »

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Not so simple. Almost all taxes are higher in Europe. That means that not only are we paying for higher VAT (~ 15-22% in Europe, compared to sales taxes of ~ 0-5% in US IIRC), but we are paying higher taxes on wages, raw materials, transportation, energy, etc. etc., in addition to higher social security costs, higher labor costs, higher financing costs, labor market rigidities, fewer working hours, less efficient financial markets, etc. etc. All of this compounds - snowballs - into the outrageous price differentials we see in cameras and other goods, differentials which can't be explained away by mere import duties or exchange rate differentials.

I wouldn't be surprised if Europeans pay higher margins on goods just because we're used to outrageous prices. But the main reason why everything is so expensive here is to pay for all the public goods through taxes. So, the next time you pay 100% more on a camera you can dwell on the warm and fuzzy feeling you get from the knowledge of providing for a public opera house, or the replacement liver for the guy who's dying due to 30 years of alcoholism.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Feppe,

Now I understand. I'll  be able to sleep more soundly tonight knowing that my full price UK purchased P45+ is worth the extra cost.  I suppose my warm fuzzy feeling will be intensified to know that my purchase will include a contribution to the war in Iraq too !
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eronald

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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2007, 06:41:28 pm »

Concerning dealers in Paris, I have one thing to say: Avoid at all costs. Literally, paying money to buy ANYWHERE else is probably worth it. I have got so paranoid that when a company sent me a replacement recently I warned the dealer that I had the serial of this camera so as to be sure he would not discreetly swap it out to give a "better" customer a pristine camera. This was not MF but Leica, but you get the picture.

I watched as the dealer from who I got a broken 1DsII switched the box insides from that unit with my replacement unit so he could pretend to the poor next customer that he was getting a new 1DsII when he was getting a repaired camera.

The manufacturers know their dealers and treat the customers of these dealers exactly as they deserve: as suckers.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 06:48:13 pm by eronald »
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Mort54

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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2007, 06:49:48 pm »

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How many more megapixels do we need? I reckon most of the people who own a 39mp back will never use it to it's full potential. It's probably more a question of ego. You know the  "my back has more megapixels than yours"  syndrome.
The reason I got a MFDB, and the reason I specifically got the P45+, was that I felt my landscape shots lacked fine detail. I had previously been using a 12 MP Nikon D2X for landscape work, using the best primes I could get my hands on,  mirror lockup, cable release, heavy tripod, etc, and I still felt my images looked soft (obviously this is very subjective, and one person's perception of soft is just fine to another person). Basically I craved lots of detail in large print sizes. With the 39 MP back, I can print up to 18" x 24" at 300dpi, without any uprezzing, so for now I'm a happy camper. The increase in fine detail I'm seeing between my Nikon and the P45 is truly amazing. There's just no comparison. It's not just the MP, it's also the lack of a A/A filter on the back, and the amazing shadow detail in the MFDB shots. And it's not like the D2X is lacking. I've compared the P45 files to Canon 1DsII files and the results are just the same. The P45 blows both of them away. Anyway, everybody has their reasons. I had mine. And so far it's actually exceeded my expectations. As for whether 39 MP is enough, all I can say is I use every last one of them.
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mcfoto

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« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2007, 07:17:52 pm »

Hi
I have owned the ZD camera for 14 months now with no problems. With this camera I don't need support from Mamiya to hold my hand & the warranty has passed now. Frank Doorhof is currently doing a review of the ZD back & is having fun, looks like he is buying one. From what I have been seeing on his reviews the iso 400 has improved from the ZD camera.
   Last year I bought RD for $100.00 USD & now I process all my ZD & 5D files with this program. Last week Bibble released there new program that will shoot tethered with the more recent Canon cameras. RD is currently working on a tethered program that will work with Leaf & Canon files. If he can get the meta data from other camera makers they could also be added to the list. What about LR since they are ADOBE I would not be surprised if they come out with a tethered program. The MAC group giving LR with every ZD back or ZD kit is a move in the right direction.
     Yes the Aptus 22 back is better than the ZD back. But there is a cost $25,000 vrs $7000 USD. For a photographer wanting to get into MFD this is not a bad start. It uses the same Dalsa chip ( 1.16x lens factor) . For me I could never go back to the 1.5x lens factor. Plus if there is some spare cash you could buy some lighting equipment, DSLR, new computer, printer etc.. And since you are in an open system you can still buy a digital back of your choice later or rent.
    With the new 3rd party software coming to the market the ZD will benefit the most.

Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2007, 04:05:26 am »

I allready have my setup

But which programm is RD ?

I'm still struggeling to see what I will use.
At the moment it's Bridge and Lightroom.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2007, 04:06:04 am »

Quote
Concerning dealers in Paris, I have one thing to say: Avoid at all costs. Literally, paying money to buy ANYWHERE else is probably worth it. I have got so paranoid that when a company sent me a replacement recently I warned the dealer that I had the serial of this camera so as to be sure he would not discreetly swap it out to give a "better" customer a pristine camera. This was not MF but Leica, but you get the picture.

I watched as the dealer from who I got a broken 1DsII switched the box insides from that unit with my replacement unit so he could pretend to the poor next customer that he was getting a new 1DsII when he was getting a repaired camera.

The manufacturers know their dealers and treat the customers of these dealers exactly as they deserve: as suckers.

Edmund
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eronald,
concerning the bad relation from the dealers who know you....
did you gave them a similar amount of questions, sugestions and speculations, than you do here in the forum?
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mcfoto

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« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2007, 04:13:40 am »

Quote
I allready have my setup

But which programm is RD ?

I'm still struggeling to see what I will use.
At the moment it's Bridge and Lightroom.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Quote


Hi
Rd is Raw Developer
[a href=\"http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/rawdeveloper.html]http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/rawdeveloper.html[/url]
Please try iy out.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2007, 04:34:39 am »

Thanks, but I don't run a Mac
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thsinar

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« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2007, 11:41:58 am »

Not only has the number of professional photographers shrunk, but as well the number of MF systems sold in the world, dramatically. There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.

Thierry

Quote from: uaiomex,Jun 13 2007, 04:13 AM
I may be wrong at figures. Hard to believe that in the time humanity double in numbers, there are 50% less pro photographers working. That accounts to a relative 25% shrinkage.

Maybe in your cities. Because in my city there are tenfold more pros than 30 years ago. All using dslr's because present prices of dmfb's are out of our league.
But I would expect to see a couple of ZD backs by end of the year. I´d rather wait to see if Hasselblad comes with a better offer than the CFV. Nice try, but not quite. (at least not for me).

Eduardo
Quote from: mattlap2,Jun 12 2007, 12:2
That is where you are very wrong ....  there are fewer photographers than there were 30 years ago.   By quite a large number.    The market has shrunk tremendously.   There was an industry study done by the Photo Marketing Association a few years ago ....I actually believe it was right at the Millenium comparing 2000 to 1970 ....and they found that the market had shrunk by almost 50%.

Businesses have consolidated ....eliminating many corporate photo studios.   Just think of how many colleagues we have watched close their studios and leave the business.  

It is definitely a shrinking market ....rather than a growing one.
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« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 11:42:38 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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uaiomex

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« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2007, 11:58:36 am »

Interesting data Thierry.

Is there a forecast for these figures to keep shrinking?

Do you know if the Hy6 system will eventually offer a "bargain" dback?

There are speculations now, that Hasselblad may offer a CFV2.

Eduardo


Quote
Not only has the number of professional photographers shrunk, but as well the number of MF systems sold in the world, dramatically. There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.

Thierry
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eronald

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« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2007, 12:03:14 pm »

Thierry,

I have seen similar numbers.
Will you be in Paris this weekend ?

Edmund

Quote
Not only has the number of professional photographers shrunk, but as well the number of MF systems sold in the world, dramatically. There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.

Thierry
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