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mauricio

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« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2007, 08:51:57 am »

I'm leaving once again in a few days and I'm taking with me 2 DSLR, 5 lenses (altough they are primes and small), flash, laptop, external HD for backup, GPS, chargers, filters, tripod and a bunch of other stuff. As long as you pack accordingly, there's no problem whatsoever. Of course that if you want to take all your house with you, that will be a problem. People who travel with photo equipment need to adapt to the reality. Those "What worked, what didn't" articles by Michael are pretty good when it comes to explain that you don't need to have everything you own on each trip.

The way I pack things these days is quite similar to what Michael does. All the essencial stuff goes into a rolling case. That will take my camera bodies, lenses, flash, filters, batteries, laptop. The case is well inside the maximum size for carry on bags.

Then I pack all the things I can live without (stuff that I would miss but that wouldn't stop me shooting) on a shoulder bag that I then check in together with my clothes and everything else.

Once at final destination, everything I will use on a daily basis go to the shoulder bag and everything else stays in the rolling case, whether is in the hotel, in the car or whatever.
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Mauricio Matos
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2007, 09:02:30 am »

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I'm leaving once again in a few days and I'm taking with me 2 DSLR, 5 lenses (altough they are primes and small), flash, laptop, external HD for backup, GPS, chargers, filters, tripod and a bunch of other stuff. As long as you pack accordingly, there's no problem whatsoever. Of course that if you want to take all your house with you, that will be a problem. People who travel with photo equipment need to adapt to the reality. Those "What worked, what didn't" articles by Michael are pretty good when it comes to explain that you don't need to have everything you own on each trip.

The way I pack things these days is quite similar to what Michael does. All the essencial stuff goes into a rolling case. That will take my camera bodies, lenses, flash, filters, batteries, laptop. The case is well inside the maximum size for carry on bags.

Then I pack all the things I can live without (stuff that I would miss but that wouldn't stop me shooting) on a shoulder bag that I then check in together with my clothes and everything else.

Once at final destination, everything I will use on a daily basis go to the shoulder bag and everything else stays in the rolling case, whether is in the hotel, in the car or whatever.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, all that can be well and good as long as the airline you use has a high enough weight limit on that rolling bag (not all do), and as long as your shoulder bag turns up at your destination. If it doesn't and it has your chargers, spare batteries, etc. in it you're *s.o.l* if your first round of energy runs out before the bag reaches you. While total loss of baggage is a low-probability event, the probability of delayed baggage is not insignificant.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mauricio

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« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2007, 09:13:23 am »

That's true Mark

But then again, if you think like that you may not leave home with your equipment...because s*it may happen anywhere you go, not only if you take a flight. Someone may steal your stuff from your car or even from you.

What I can tell you is that from my experience with 21 countries and more airports and airlines than that, I never lost a piece of equipment until now. May it happen? Of course it can...but I have to live with that possibility.

Regarding the weight limit, I can't remember a single time that I got my carry on checked for weight. Usually they take a look at it and never ask to weigh it.

Honestly I'm all with these new rules. Did you ever get in a flight where people take so much crap with them that when you reach your seat (after waiting I don't know for how long so that people can shove everything above their heads) you find out that there's no room for your stuff anywhere? To me is not just a security issue...it's also less time you spend at security checks, less trouble once inside the aircraft and so on.
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Mauricio Matos
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2007, 09:54:52 am »

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That's true Mark

But then again, if you think like that you may not leave home with your equipment...because s*it may happen anywhere you go, not only if you take a flight. Someone may steal your stuff from your car or even from you.

What I can tell you is that from my experience with 21 countries and more airports and airlines than that, I never lost a piece of equipment until now. May it happen? Of course it can...but I have to live with that possibility.

Regarding the weight limit, I can't remember a single time that I got my carry on checked for weight. Usually they take a look at it and never ask to weigh it.

Honestly I'm all with these new rules. Did you ever get in a flight where people take so much crap with them that when you reach your seat (after waiting I don't know for how long so that people can shove everything above their heads) you find out that there's no room for your stuff anywhere? To me is not just a security issue...it's also less time you spend at security checks, less trouble once inside the aircraft and so on.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123116\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I haven't lost anything either, but I have had bags delayed several days. Fortunately the latest incident was on returning home. Had it been the other way "my goose would have been cooked".

If you enjoy the new limitations, that's fine. Many others, me included, don't enjoy them and would prefer to think there are probably more intelligent/imaginative ways of avoiding the inconveniences and excesses you correctly identify without being as heavy-handed as they have become. Much of this is driven by cost-cutting and revenue enhancement considerations.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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keithrsmith

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« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2007, 10:02:44 am »

For those who don't know - beware the size of hand baggage.  I have had a number of cases where I have taken an internal flight and found that the hand baggage size is smaller than for international flights.

This is due to the smaller aircraft having smaller overhead lockers.  I have had to check a case that I had taken as hand baggage - which meant removing valuables into a smaller bag at the last moment.

Keith
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jeremyrh

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« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2007, 01:18:45 pm »

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Curiously, BA does not specify a cabin baggage weight limit on their hand baggage information web page. They do say we need to be able to lift it to the bin unaided. BUT, the 22x18x10 inch size limit is the killer. I could not cram my gear and a laptop into that size, so it remains an issue - at least for me, and I suspect many others too. Interesting, if you look at that same information page you will see that their partner airlines have ridiculously low weight limits for cabin baggage. I think there's no denying, give or take a detail or two, the overall situation there is quite an awkward mess for many traveling photographers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123108\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's true, but BA is better than most, I think. It took me quite a lot of effort to get them to confirm to me in writing what their limits are, but 23kg in a Think Tank Airport International represents quite a lot of gear :-)
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jrtchris

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« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2007, 05:21:03 pm »

Went through Gatwick recently, and yes, they are very strict about the baggage rules, including the size.  I had a carry on that got into the UK with no problems.  On my way back, I was stopped no less than 4 times, and repeatedly made to show that I could stuff the bag into the proper size bin.  This was before the security check point.  After everyone squeezed through this bottleneck, they could care less what you had, and people had all kinds of bags again from duty free shopping...myself included.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2007, 07:53:44 pm »

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Went through Gatwick recently, and yes, they are very strict about the baggage rules, including the size.  I had a carry on that got into the UK with no problems.  On my way back, I was stopped no less than 4 times, and repeatedly made to show that I could stuff the bag into the proper size bin.  This was before the security check point.  After everyone squeezed through this bottleneck, they could care less what you had, and people had all kinds of bags again from duty free shopping...myself included.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Isn't that interesting? Proves what I'm saying - it's all driven by commercial interests. Those rental incomes from the duty free shops are important to BAA's commercial viability so they look the other way. Exercizing common sense and flexibility on carry-on's going through security means more agents, more scanner space and more table space, so more costs and less revenue (they'd cut into shopping space), therefore that gets restricted.

Don't get me wrong - security is a very serious concern - indeed probably much more serious than either they talk about or we would prefer to think about - but this stuff really IS NOT about security. BAA and the airlines are using security as a convenient smokescreen to achieve commercial objectives. If you think that's cynical it is - on their part - not on the part of those who see through it. Well, BAA can carry on with their congested mess at Gatwick Airport - I'ld use it only on a "no-options" basis at the best of times.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jjj

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« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2007, 08:53:32 pm »

This thread started just before I was about to book a flight to Stockholm from the UK. Now the last couple of flights there have been with Ryan Air, but they have sneaked more extra prices in to the flight charge - paying for any bag checked in!! So I thought sod them and looked elsewhere. Especially as I now have to travel to London anyway to get to Stanstead to use RA. Before I could fly from much closer to home up North, but RA dropped that very handy flight.
I think RA's owner really hates his customers, he's such a pratt, I resented using his planes anyway.

So ironically given this thread, I ended up booking a flight with BA from Heathrow. Worked out much easier than Ryan Air as my bike goes free [£31 with RA], 8kg extra checked weight [23kg =£108 with RA] and effectively unlimited carry on weight. Which as my camera bag with just the esentials weighs approx 15KG that's very useful. I used to have to pile all my heavy stuff from suitcase into my bike bag to get under the pathetic limits, then retransfer the other end. Very tedious.
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jeremyrh

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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2007, 03:32:46 am »

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Isn't that interesting? Proves what I'm saying - it's all driven by commercial interests. Those rental incomes from the duty free shops are important to BAA's commercial viability so they look the other way. Exercizing common sense and flexibility on carry-on's going through security means more agents, more scanner space and more table space, so more costs and less revenue (they'd cut into shopping space), therefore that gets restricted.

Don't get me wrong - security is a very serious concern - indeed probably much more serious than either they talk about or we would prefer to think about - but this stuff really IS NOT about security. BAA and the airlines are using security as a convenient smokescreen to achieve commercial objectives. If you think that's cynical it is - on their part - not on the part of those who see through it. Well, BAA can carry on with their congested mess at Gatwick Airport - I'ld use it only on a "no-options" basis at the best of times.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123197\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No - the duty free stuff has already been security screened and doesn't cause any additional load on the security check procedures.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2007, 08:56:08 am »

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No - the duty free stuff has already been security screened and doesn't cause any additional load on the security check procedures.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That exactly reinforces the point I was making. They'll allow what adds to revenue without adding to cost and discourage what subtracts from revenue and adds to cost. The need for the security is a given.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mauricio

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« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2007, 10:46:06 am »

How could you control duty free stuff? Another security check at the aircraft's door?
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Mauricio Matos
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mahleu

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« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2007, 11:41:24 am »

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How could you control duty free stuff? Another security check at the aircraft's door?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123278\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The ticket check before boarding can control luggage allowance
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thegoderic

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« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2007, 11:45:27 am »

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(will also post in forum on shooting gear, since this covers both camera backpacks and what is allowed, as well as problems at a specific location)

[

(I suspect that British Airways encourages this policy to cut down on carry-on bags even though they deny it.  They richly deserve the loss of business, as does every hotel and tourist establishment in London, as long as Heathrow enforces this policy.)

British Airways is as unhappy at this policy as most travelers, if not more so.

After the 8/8 incident last year, BAA (British Airports Authority) who run Heathrow and most other British airports told the government that they could not cope with the enhanced screening process (Liquids out, laptops out, shoes off) unless the numbers of bags was reduced and it was their lobbying that caused this moronic rule to be brought in.

There are mutterings that it may change in the future, but for the time being it is a major impediment for traveling through UK airports.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2007, 11:53:26 am »

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The ticket check before boarding can control luggage allowance
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123293\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Good Lord help us all. Can you imagine what an added nightmare that would be? Think of the operational implications.  How much extra time would it take to board an aircraft of 450 passengers? What happens when someone trundles on with too much stuff? How does it get safely packed, labeled and put in the hold while the plane is expected to depart on schedule? NO WAY.
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jeremyrh

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« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2007, 02:11:53 pm »

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That exactly reinforces the point I was making. They'll allow what adds to revenue without adding to cost and discourage what subtracts from revenue and adds to cost. The need for the security is a given.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, OK - but that's sort of obvious, isn't it? :-)
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2007, 03:18:25 pm »

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Well, OK - but that's sort of obvious, isn't it? :-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Indeed; less obvious is how and when passengers' needs and preferences will be accommodated safely in more sensible ways than BAA and other authorities have displayed heretofore. Photographers and others who need to travel with substantial amounts of sensitive equipment are particularly vulnerable to clotted and insensitive rules and procedures.
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mahleu

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« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2007, 04:49:32 pm »

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The Good Lord help us all. Can you imagine what an added nightmare that would be? Think of the operational implications.  How much extra time would it take to board an aircraft of 450 passengers? What happens when someone trundles on with too much stuff? How does it get safely packed, labeled and put in the hold while the plane is expected to depart on schedule? NO WAY.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123297\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It already happens on domestic flights here. You pass through security but before you leave the terminal to board you give in your ticket and they can check your carry on size. If it doesn't conform they send it back through to be checked. They also take some larger carry on items and stow them somewhere just before you board.
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marty m

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« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2007, 11:46:37 pm »

Since I was the original poster, I'd like to respond to some of my critics:

(1)  One referred to these comments as "half-assed" and said that there is no excuse for not being informed about Heathrow.  In my case I was scheduled to fly to Frankfurt, originating on United out of Dulles.  The lines were so long that business class travelers who arrived a full two hours early missed flights.  United then changed my flight to go through Heathrow.  United clearly saw that I had two carry-ons and didn't warn me.  Unfortunately, because I am "half-assed," I didn't think about using my lap top while at the ticket counter, and connect to the internet to check Heathrow's policies, and not depart the United check-in counter until I knew for certain that two carry-ons were OK.  (Because it was at that point that I needed to check my laptop and briefcase to avoid the hassle in Heathrow of having to check my second carry-on.)  

But I am half-assed and gullible, so I assumed that Heathrow was no different from any other major airport.  Silly me.  

Ironically, now that I have checked the United web site, it does have a warning about Heathrow and London, but I was not warned by United, and had no way to check it -- not when I was suddenly changed to that flight and told I had 25 minutes to get to the boarding gate.

I don't know if all airlines now include a warning about Heathrow or not.  United does.  But it is just plain silly to suggest that travelers should be checking the web sites for both airlines AND airports.  No one does that, nor should they be expected to do so.

Even if all airlines now post the info on Heathrow, it is clear that the news is not being clearly conveyed, judging by the results I saw as noted in #2 below.  

Since Heathrow is so different from every other airport, the airlines also have a proactive obligation to warn passengers when booking flights.  It wouldn't be that tough for United to include a "flag" in their reservation system for all agents to be told to warn passengers who are flying through Heathrow about this policy.  That is clearly not happening.

Finally, since Heathrow is the single airport that is doing this, as noted in #7 and #8 below, it is still entirely valid to argue that if you must use two carry-ons, you must avoid Heathrow at all costs.  And it is equally valid to argue that there are other airports, and other countries to visit, than Heathrow and the UK.

(2)  The poster who described the small-minded British bureaucrats got it exactly right.  I witnessed this policy applied against 15 or 20 people in less than ten minutes. And that is repeated dozens of times each hour, hour after hour, at Heathrow. The Heathrow fascist cops applied that policy to 80 year old women. I watched them do it. They even took away a cane from one old lady in front of me, and did not offer to get her a wheel chair, until the passengers surrounding her loudly complained in her behalf.

None of these passengers had any reason to be prepared for this, since they were ALLOWED to have two carry-ons on their ORIGINATING flights at other major airports on giant airlines.  Regardless of what is or is not on the web sites of those airlines, they are allowing passengers to board flights that connect through Heathrow, and watch them walk on with two carry-ons.  The passengers have no idea what is waiting for them in Heathrow with the zealous cops in that airport.

(3)  As for liability, I believe that almost all airlines specifically waive ALL liability for photographic equipment.  So we are expected to check camera equipment with no protection at all.  Here is what is on the United web site:

"United is not liable for damage to fragile items, spoilage of perishables, loss/damage/delay of money, jewelry, cameras, electronic/video/photographic equipment, computer equipment. . . ."

So even if United is nice enough to warn us about Heathrow, they are turning around and telling us that if we check anything as a result of the Heathrow policy, we assume 100% of the risk.  It would be more accurate for them to post a policy that says this:

WARNING!!!  ONLY ONE CARRY-ONE ALLOWED AT HEATHROW.  UNITED ASSUMES ABSOLUTELY NO LIABILITY FOR ANY CAMERA, PHOTOGRAPHIC OR COMPUTER EQUIPMENT THAT IS CHECKED AS A RESULT OF THIS HALF-ASSED POLICY AT HEATHROW.

(Sorry, I just couldn't resist the proper use of "half-assed" where it really belongs, and it is not on us.)

(4)  Have you ever watched through the window, as the baggage handlers THROW suitcases onto the planes? Have you ever read the complaints, covered in major newspapers, of the increasing scale of thefts from checked luggage by TSA inspectors? Pro photographers who are concerned about theft and damage carry on camera gear, such as single camera bodies that can easily be worth $4,000 to $8,000. Only a fool would check a laptop that is vital for such photography and can easily be broken or stolen as checked luggage.

(5)  One poster has frequently invoked the threat of terrorism, but he did not state that he is employed with any agency related to national security.  He has as much claim to expertise on terrorism as any of us.  And it defies all logic that it is more dangerous to have two smaller carry-ons, such as a small photo backpack and a briefcase, as one huge carry-on of maximum size.  Any threat can be as easily carried in one huge think tank backpack as in two smaller carry-ons.  So stop waving the the flag and wrapping yourself in patriotism and terrorism, unless you have clear expertise to tell all of us why common sense should not prevail.

(6) Finally, the tourist industry in Britain, fortunately, recognizes that is damaging the flow of tourists to the UK. An executive for one of Britain's top hotel chains sent me an email, and said that "as someone who flies out from the UK very regularly, I can only say I completely agree the policy is inconvenient, unnecessary and out of line with most other countries.  We are told it is to allow thorough checks of hand baggage without introducing delays.  But I can't say I find Heathrow any more thorough or more quick as a result.  Furthermore, I agree that the rule becomes completely ridiculous when it comes to people changing flights in the UK and having to to put their second piece of carry-on luggage in the hold when they change planes.  I know our trade association has been lobbying on this issue and I will check if there is any more we can do."

When it really impacts their bottom line, then they will scream even louder, and that is probably the only thing that will cause the petty bureaucrats in Britain to change the policy.  I work in govt relations, and can testify that if you want to change a policy, you need to hit the incomes of those who have real clout -- you need them to complain and force a change in policy.

(7) The fact of the matter is that this is only happening at Heathrow. It is apparently a policy applied by the British govt for all UK airports, but the others have the common sense to ignore it. Again, according to the same hotel exec, as well as postings on other sites.        

(8)  Ditto with other EU airports. This may be a EU policy, but based on the postings on this site, and reports from other business travelers, all other EU airports ignore the policy.  Only the cops at Heathrow are enforcing this.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 10:51:59 pm by marty m »
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jeremyrh

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« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2007, 12:50:22 am »

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(7) The fact of the matter is that this is only happening at Heathrow. It is apparently a policy applied by the British govt for all UK airports, but the others have the common sense to ignore it. Again, according to the same hotel exec, as well as postings on other sites.         

(8)  Ditto with other EU airports. This may be a EU policy, but based on the postings on this site, and reports from other business travelers, all other EU airports ignore the policy.  Only the cops at Heathrow are enforcing this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123655\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To some extent I sympathise with your other points - your airline shold have alerted you to the UK carry-on regulations.

But here you are dead wrong - these regulations are enforced at all UK airports.

For what it's worth, I avoid Heathrow like the plague, but that's nothing to do with carry-on restrictions :-)
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