Glazing and reflections

[Rand47]

Thanks Rand,

Interesting.

Could you find out what the brand of laminate is? The “ leather surface” sounds a lot like the satin laminate used here. I’m not wild about the texture at all but for large things it would be fine. To me the gloss they offer is too plastic looking, like cibachrome ish.

I don’t really have any issue with the tonal ramp or even the color saturation.  The problem with the stuff I had laminated was the poor dmax ( or I should say gray max ). It’s really a factor with nice bw on nice papers.

I’m so sick of people paying three times the cost of my prints for framing that I’m about to encourage anything for large prints. Paying that much for plexi that has all the bad reflections is getting crazy.

John

John,   

I’ll contact my person at ColorPlak today and find out for you.   I’ll also attempt to get an oblique photo of the “leather” surface and try to show the texture.  It is so subtle as to be unnoticeable from even only a few inches away.  The print I have is something like 22x34” approx, and framed w/o glazing.  I don’t notice “texture” per se.  But it is a different look than the matte. 

Rand

[MHMG]

Premiere Art uv spray is not robust enough to protect a print overtime  from pollutants in the air. As Mark at Aardenburg has written.

Over 20 years I never had a client have an issue except once when he showed some prints of mine that had three coats of the Premiere Art spray and showed with no other protection.  He pinned to a gallery wall and within one month they not only changed in regard to density but also turned a sick sepia color. They were Vivera bw neutral prints. They did this in three different locations. That freaked me out.  All Canson Rag Photographique. Could Baryta surface fare better, don’t know.

Mark has noted that the inkjet receptor coatings attract environmental contaminants like a sponge. This includes ozone from air conditioners, chemicals from floor cleaners, heating system fumes,wood burning  fire places,etc, etc. These prints were shown with magnets, not mounted. It was really bad. One mounted and shown in a home also changed color and actually started fading.

Thing is , rc prints most likely hold up a lot better. Naked like that, most likely.

It is very common for people to mount larger  rc prints to dibond for exhibitions and have no issues. They might last for several years or decades, don’t know. Nobody does these tests scientifically that I know of.

Like the guy said, canvas coated with the very good uv acrylic/laytex varnish like bc timeless are very stable.  I have convinced some clients to do this for large things where framing and plexi can be really expensive. Other great feature is NO reflections.

John

John kindly sent me a sample of the faded-turned-sepia inkjet prints made with HP Vivera pigment. I never did come up with a logical explanation of this problem, nor have I ever heard of anyone else who experienced it, so it is indeed still a mystery. However, I personally experienced and have read numerous accounts of rapid yellowing of inkjet prints, as have the inkjet media manufacturers. Their advice boils down to "stick it in the sun for a few hours and it will go away". And yes, light bleaching does largely (but not always completely) eliminate the yellowing on the affected prints. However the manufacturers have never bothered to explain the problem, AFAIK, relying typically on vague opinions about freshly painted rooms or non conservation-grade adhesives as causing this rapid yellowing.

Because we now have many anecdotal stories of this rapid media yellowing problem I spent considerable time investigating it, and I finally did figure it out. It's called phenolic yellowing, and the ingredients necessary to cause it are: 1) an alkaline (pH > 8.5) substrate which is pretty much a given with fine art inkjet papers, 2) NOx, i.e. nitrogen oxides from fossil fuel burning, and 3) phenolic compounds, e.g. BHT often found as an anti-oxidant in plastic bags, other phenolic compounds used to increase adhesion in heat activated dry mount tissues and other products like non conservation grade adhesive tapes, etc.

Phenolic yellowing is a well known phenomenon in the textile industry, but little known in the photographic/printing industry or even the photo conservation community. There is a very logical explanation for why this is so. Traditional wet process photographs generally end up with faily pH neutral or slightly acidic image/coating layers and thus don't provide the alkaline environment needed to produce the yellow compound. Phenolic compounds can be present, and the photo can have been exposed to NOx, but the reaction product stays colorless because the image layer doesn't have enough alkalinity to turn this reaction product yellow. In contrast, The textile industry sees this customer problem a lot, because textiles are typically washed in alkaline detergents, then often stored in plastic garment bags which are the source of the phenolic compounds. Add a little NOx from air pollution and you can experience a distinctly and objectionably yellowed textile (e.g., think white wedding dress now with yellow stains!).

All that said, phenolic yellowing deserves further research with regard to photographic and inkjet media and ultimately a peer-reviewed paper specifically devoted to it, but for now all I've published on the subject lies buried on pages 33-35 in an article about my adhesive-free picture framing methods. You can find the article here if you are interested: https://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/adhesive-free-picture-framing/

cheers,
Mark McCormick

[deanwork]

That’s so nice of you. Really appreciate it.  If I can find a better laminate material it will help my clients ( and me )  immeasurably with exhibition costs, storage etc. No frames would be needed only mount to dibond.

So have you laminated subtle bw prints on any cotton media that don’t show this big drop in black density?
That’s really the primary thing that has prevented me from pursuing lamination. All the prints flattened out significantly when laminated with either the satin or gloss laminate that my mounting guy uses.

John

John,   

I’ll contact my person at ColorPlak today and find out for you.   I’ll also attempt to get an oblique photo of the “leather” surface and try to show the texture.  It is so subtle as to be unnoticeable from even only a few inches away.  The print I have is something like 22x34” approx, and framed w/o glazing.  I don’t notice “texture” per se.  But it is a different look than the matte. 

Rand

[Rand47]

That’s so nice of you. Really appreciate it.  If I can find a better laminate material it will help my clients ( and me )  immeasurably with exhibition costs, storage etc. No frames would be needed only mount to dibond.

So have you laminated subtle bw prints on any cotton media that don’t show this big drop in black density?
That’s really the primary thing that has prevented me from pursuing lamination. All the prints flattened out significantly when laminated with either the satin or gloss laminate that my mounting guy uses.

John

I got my guy from ColorPlak today… he’s “on it” and I’ll report back when I hear from him w/ the specific media brand, etc.

As far as a loss of black density, I’ve not seen that.  I had a print made on Canson Platine Fibre Rag laminated and (again based on my mid tone bump - and in this case opening up deep shadows a bit more than I normally might) the print looked good laminated.  If it was held side by side w/ the original soft proofed print, you might notice a difference (in fact I’m sure you would) but it is a distinction without a real difference, if that makes sense.

More later . . .

Rand

[deanwork]

Thanks a lot Rand. I’m very interested. The dmax on all the papers I’ve had laminated here , including Platine, kill the dmax, and it’s not subtle at all ! But it does seem like someone could resolve that  if they worked on a formula for it.

I got my guy from ColorPlak today… he’s “on it” and I’ll report back when I hear from him w/ the specific media brand, etc.

As far as a loss of black density, I’ve not seen that.  I had a print made on Canson Platine Fibre Rag laminated and (again based on my mid tone bump - and in this case opening up deep shadows a bit more than I normally might) the print looked good laminated.  If it was held side by side w/ the original soft proofed print, you might notice a difference (in fact I’m sure you would) but it is a distinction without a real difference, if that makes sense.

More later . . .

Rand

[mearussi]

John kindly sent me a sample of the faded-turned-sepia inkjet prints made with HP Vivera pigment. I never did come up with a logical explanation of this problem, nor have I ever heard of anyone else who experienced it, so it is indeed still a mystery. However, I personally experienced and have read numerous accounts of rapid yellowing of inkjet prints, as have the inkjet media manufacturers. Their advice boils down to "stick it in the sun for a few hours and it will go away". And yes, light bleaching does largely (but not always completely) eliminate the yellowing on the affected prints. However the manufacturers have never bothered to explain the problem, AFAIK, relying typically on vague opinions about freshly painted rooms or non conservation-grade adhesives as causing this rapid yellowing.

Because we now have many anecdotal stories of this rapid media yellowing problem I spent considerable time investigating it, and I finally did figure it out. It's called phenolic yellowing, and the ingredients necessary to cause it are: 1) an alkaline (pH > 8.5) substrate which is pretty much a given with fine art inkjet papers, 2) NOx, i.e. nitrogen oxides from fossil fuel burning, and 3) phenolic compounds, e.g. BHT often found as an anti-oxidant in plastic bags, other phenolic compounds used to increase adhesion in heat activated dry mount tissues and other products like non conservation grade adhesive tapes, etc.

Phenolic yellowing is a well known phenomenon in the textile industry, but little known in the photographic/printing industry or even the photo conservation community. There is a very logical explanation for why this is so. Traditional wet process photographs generally end up with faily pH neutral or slightly acidic image/coating layers and thus don't provide the alkaline environment needed to produce the yellow compound. Phenolic compounds can be present, and the photo can have been exposed to NOx, but the reaction product stays colorless because the image layer doesn't have enough alkalinity to turn this reaction product yellow. In contrast, The textile industry sees this customer problem a lot, because textiles are typically washed in alkaline detergents, then often stored in plastic garment bags which are the source of the phenolic compounds. Add a little NOx from air pollution and you can experience a distinctly and objectionably yellowed textile (e.g., think white wedding dress now with yellow stains!).

All that said, phenolic yellowing deserves further research with regard to photographic and inkjet media and ultimately a peer-reviewed paper specifically devoted to it, but for now all I've published on the subject lies buried on pages 33-35 in an article about my adhesive-free picture framing methods. You can find the article here if you are interested: https://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/adhesive-free-picture-framing/

cheers,
Mark McCormick

Mark, where is this on your web site?

"Premiere Art uv spray is not robust enough to protect a print overtime  from pollutants in the air. As Mark at Aardenburg has written."

I'm using Premier Art UV spray on the assumption that it increases the life of my prints. Am I wasting my money?

Also I display my prints in Clear Bags: https://www.clearbags.com/bags/flat/flap-tape/protective-closure
Is this harming them?

[deanwork]

The 2 large neutral prints I sent him that had turned sepia we’re both sprayed with Premiere Art.

I don’t know if it’s currently on his site but he has told us to beware of gasses that long before I sent him those examples.

There is debate as to exactly how much UV protection these sprays provide , say compared to expensive uv plexi.
Wilhelms tests years ago showed that spray to give twice the longevity rating compared to behind glass with no spray. Same rating he was giving expensive uv glass. I don’t remember what Epson inkset he was using. It’s been about 10 years. He doesn’t seem to be giving any uv spray ratings these days.

Personally I don’t think they have been tested on enough on various media to have any definitive answer, but surely they provide some uv protection and some atmospheric and moisture protection. We don’t know how much.

I did some tests myself putting identical bw prints behind glass in a window and exposed them to bright sunlight for 6 months. I saw a slight density change in the unsprayed print while no change at all in the sprayed print ( compared to a third print stored in the dark in a flat file.

But he’ll I just bought a case of Premiere Art. It’s an excellent protection for prints that are going to handled in a portfolio and I always use it for that.

The other thing it is useful for is protecting large HP Vivera prints on fiber gloss media. I have had several 40x60 z prints damaged through scratching in the last couple of years when people open the package that has been shipped. I pack them very carefully and covered with glassine .  I have ruled out the framers damaging them because it was different framers in different states, and the framers  were super careful after my first casualties. I do believe part of this could be the result of shippers throwing them around, even though they were rolled up carefully  in crush proof tubes with prints wrapped around the original cardboard paper roll cores. They couldn’t be packed better.

When I’m spraying these now, that problem disappeared. I never had this damage occur with the Canon Lucia inks. Ever using them for 8 years. They were by far the most durable for me .  It seems to me that recent Epson inks are pretty durable also.

Also prints with large areas of pure black are the most vulnerable on any media, and Premiere Art really protects them.

Premiere Art also removes gloss differential and any bronzing that might occur on the fiber gloss media.
Never had much luck spraying rc prints. But maybe I didn’t wait long enough for them to outgas before spraying.

Vivera 70 inks have been shown by the reviews of Onsight Imaging to be the least scratch resistant compared to Canon and Epson inks.

So, you are not wasting your time , it’s just that they haven’t been shown to completely protect prints from chemicals in the environment.  But as Mark said, there is still a lot to be learned about these conditions. Once prints leave the printer we have no idea what people expose them to.

There are still a lot of unknown unknowns about the effects of atmospheric pollution on inkjet receptor coatings and none of the paper manufacturers are even investigating this at all as far as I’ve heard. And they have had decades to do that.

If you use that stuff wear a respirator and eye protection. But I still consider it a good useful product.

John

Mark, where is this on your web site?

"Premiere Art uv spray is not robust enough to protect a print overtime  from pollutants in the air. As Mark at Aardenburg has written."

I'm using Premier Art UV spray on the assumption that it increases the life of my prints. Am I wasting my money?

Also I display my prints in Clear Bags: https://www.clearbags.com/bags/flat/flap-tape/protective-closure
Is this harming them?

[deanwork]

Hi Rand,

Did you ever hear from the framer about the brand and name of the lamination film you like?

I assume it also has uv filtration.

I’d like to pay to have a couple of 13x19 ish test done from him and compare to the tests I’ve had done here in Atlanta.

If I were just doing smaller prints for mounting I’d just use your guy, but shipping 40x60 prints wouldn’t be practical or affordable for me.

John

I got my guy from ColorPlak today… he’s “on it” and I’ll report back when I hear from him w/ the specific media brand, etc.

As far as a loss of black density, I’ve not seen that.  I had a print made on Canson Platine Fibre Rag laminated and (again based on my mid tone bump - and in this case opening up deep shadows a bit more than I normally might) the print looked good laminated.  If it was held side by side w/ the original soft proofed print, you might notice a difference (in fact I’m sure you would) but it is a distinction without a real difference, if that makes sense.

More later . . .

Rand