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Author Topic: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences  (Read 1393 times)

sbay

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Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« on: September 07, 2022, 12:15:37 pm »

I've been making a few proofs on different papers. One thing I noticed is that some samples tends to be a bit more yellow or bit more magenta. This shows up in the soft-proofs as well so I think ICC profiles, although generic, are at least somewhat accurate. So my question is why do these color casts even remain in a color managed workflow? I get that paper white is going to be different but shouldn't the midtones be the same. Is it an issue of the paper white influencing how I perceive the colors in the picture? some other factor?

RaffiCoffee

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2022, 09:22:24 pm »

Lots of things should be how they are defined, but the reality is not so.
If a paper has more yellow vs another whiter paper, it is surely going to effect things.
Maybe with more specifics I can from my limited experience in some papers can have more helpful feedback.
I have noticed if a paper has gotten additives to be white can lean towards magenta when some generic profile is used.
I have had this happen when using certain paper, but I dont know if there were other variables that might have influenced this result.
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MHMG

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2022, 12:33:32 pm »

I've been making a few proofs on different papers. One thing I noticed is that some samples tends to be a bit more yellow or bit more magenta. This shows up in the soft-proofs as well so I think ICC profiles, although generic, are at least somewhat accurate. So my question is why do these color casts even remain in a color managed workflow? I get that paper white is going to be different but shouldn't the midtones be the same. Is it an issue of the paper white influencing how I perceive the colors in the picture? some other factor?

When using color management and printing photos, the chosen rendering intents are typically Relative colorimetric rendering (also with black point compensation commonly checked as well) or perceptual rendering. It's called relative rendering not for nothin' :) Relative rendering maps the colors relative to the paper white LAB value, and that relative relationship flows well into midtones and even shadows. Thus, pure gray values in the source image file will map on the cool side of pure neutral gray when printed on a cool white paper, while mapping to warmer grays when choosing a warmer white paper.

Perceptual rendering is similar, but automatically includes the black point compensation and usually tends to lift the midtone luminance values a little as well to get slightly better midtone contrast compared to a straight relcol rendering. That said, not all profiling apps offer a proprietary perceptual mapping that differs from the relcol mapping, so there's that issue to contend with as well. You can confirm whether the perceptual tag is a proprietary one by checking both rendering intents with softproofing in Photoshop or other soft proof enabled app. If the perceptual tag is proprietary, you'll see a small but noticeable difference when comparing the RELCOL choice to the perceptual choice.

Lastly, you'd get more consistency between warm and cool white papers like you were expecting using Absolute colorimetric rendering, because it attempts to get as close as possible to the original colors, which sounds like what everyone would want, but it's not that simple, either!. It's only used by a very few printmakers for printing specific images because one has to manually bring both the whites and the blacks into the paper's printable gamut, especially the L* values, otherwise ABSCOL rendering intent will typically try to add some unwanted ink in those areas to force, for example, the cool white image areas more neutral, or the warm white image areas more neutral in color appearance. Generally, that's not what folks want to mess with because when its not done correctly it comes at the expense of the paper's maximum whiteness and black density response, thus, ABSCOL is rarely if ever recommended as a useful rendering intent when printing photos.

cheers,
Mark McCormick
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sbay

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2022, 03:14:10 pm »

Mark -- thanks for that fantastic answer. It really cleared up a lot of the confusion in my mind. In hindsight the "relative" part should have been obvious but it never occurred to me. Most of what I've read concentrates on the differences between relative and perceptual when dealing with out of gamut colors, which wasn't so much of an issue here.

RaffiCoffee -- yes I generally prefer warmer papers but it just happened that in one or two images, it made the result a bit too yellow. This started me thinking about why it should be yellow at all.

digitaldog

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2022, 03:41:04 pm »

In hindsight the "relative" part should have been obvious but it never occurred to me. Most of what I've read concentrates on the differences between relative and perceptual when dealing with out of gamut colors, which wasn't so much of an issue here.
There is far more at play here and the best solution is to toggle each RI and pick the one you visually prefer. This is image specific and subjective.
Plus there are no rules in how a Perceptual mapping is conducted. Just like there are no rules in how a transparency film is made. Each manufacturer of both produces a rendering they think is (subjectively) superior. Some like Velvia (Perceptual), some like Ektachrome (Relative), and you get to decide.
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mearussi

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2022, 09:28:54 am »

What is your light source and OBA content of the papers you're testing? These two variables can also affect what you're seeing, especially if your light source is fluorescent.
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sbay

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2022, 08:41:26 pm »

What is your light source and OBA content of the papers you're testing? These two variables can also affect what you're seeing, especially if your light source is fluorescent.

Some of the papers had OBAs (e.g. ilford smooth pearl) but others did not.

I usually look at my prints under a variety of light sources: indirect window light, sunlight, leds, and whatever source it's going to be displayed under (if I know). Unfortunately I don't have a print viewing station although I would like to get one at some point. In this case, the color cast didn't change, at least in my perception, under the different lights but I have had that happen with other prints.

Balafre

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2022, 03:18:19 pm »

Relative colorimetric rendering ....
Perceptual rendering ....
Absolute colorimetric rendering...


cheers,
Mark McCormick



Mark, thank you so much for this very clear explanation - it's so useful and most appreciated.
Charles
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mearussi

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2022, 04:00:28 pm »

Another consideration is that icc profiles from the manufacturer are never a perfect match to your specific printer. A custom profile will be more accurate.
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digitaldog

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2022, 04:56:20 pm »

A custom profile will be more accurate.
Not necessarily.
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Balafre

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2022, 09:48:15 pm »

Not necessarily.

Please elaborate, if you feel inclined, I'd be very interested to learn more. My experience is the opposite. Using a ColorMunki Photo I created Custom Profiles for Canson Rag Photographique and Canson Premium High Gloss for my previous Epson 3880 and now the P800. I print to A2 and they gave far better shadow definition and tonality that the ICC standard profile.
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digitaldog

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2022, 10:09:00 pm »

I've used inferior software and hardware to create custom profiles far worse than canned profiles built with good packages and measuring devices.
Try Silverfasts scanning-based custom profiles as one example. Truly awful!
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Balafre

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2022, 10:40:00 pm »

Another consideration is that icc profiles from the manufacturer are never a perfect match to your specific printer. A custom profile will be more accurate.
I agree but not everyone does...
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Balafre

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2022, 10:50:46 pm »

I've used inferior software and hardware to create custom profiles far worse than canned profiles built with good packages and measuring devices.
Try Silverfasts scanning-based custom profiles as one example. Truly awful!

Thank you but I suppose it depends on how we define "not necessarily" - I can't imagine that you deliberately used 'inferior s/ware & h/ware" as the inferior results would have been pre-ordained ! or did you use best endeavours and intentions but the results you yielded proved to you the inferior nature of your tools, thereby prompting your scepticism?
To me the starting position should be to try to follow established best practice and this generally means using well acknowledged equipment, although yes, the manufacturers of paper do have access to a level of technology beyond the grasp of non-conglomerates.
But mearussis's comment was that any two specific models of the same printer will vary - and that is surely true, so custom profiles have an important role.
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digitaldog

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2022, 11:12:24 pm »

Thank you but I suppose it depends on how we define "not necessarily"
Start here:
A custom profile will be more accurate.
"All generalizations are false, including this one." -Mark Twain
As for “accuracy”, show me the dE reported! And better not be a perceptual rendering.

Delta-E and color accuracy
In this 7 minute video I'll cover: What is Delta-E and how we use it to evaluate color differences. Color Accuracy: what it really means, how we measure it using ColorThink Pro and BableColor CT&A. This is an edited subset of a video covering RGB working spaces from raw data (sRGB urban legend Part 1).


Low Rez: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy0BD5aRV9s&feature=youtu.be
High Rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Delta-E%20and%20Color%20Accuracy%20Video.mp4
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digitaldog

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2022, 11:23:11 pm »

But mearussis's comment was that any two specific models of the same printer will vary - and that is surely true, so custom profiles have an important role.
Another generalization devoid of colorimetric data. Untrue.
Mine, from creating a suite of profiles for Epson show otherwise.
http://pixelgenius.com/epson/, http://pixelgenius.com/epson/profile-faq.html show otherwise.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Question about papers, ICC profiles, and color differences
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2022, 03:29:34 pm »

I've used inferior software and hardware to create custom profiles far worse than canned profiles built with good packages and measuring devices.
Try Silverfasts scanning-based custom profiles as one example. Truly awful!

Yeah. Awful.  I've measured some Silverfast profiles of my P1000 printer. Worse than the Canon OEM ones.

OTOH, I've made scanner based printer profiles nearly as good i1profiler/isis2 profiles. But to do that I first had to create charts readable by the isis spectro. Then, using the measured data and scans corrected for reflected light (critical - see my posts on a scanner correction program) I was able to make printer profiles from the scans that were within .2dE as accurate as directly making a printer profile with the isis.

The basic flaw in scanner profiles of printers is that none of them correct for reflected light color shift. And so Silverfast, even if they had perfect reference targets (IT8, etc), will not be able to make reasonably accurate profiles.

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