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Author Topic: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?  (Read 9737 times)

kers

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2024, 12:36:29 pm »

I just brought all my printheads to 58 gram or more...the ones in the machines ( have 2) and all the printheads that I had that were not printing well any more;
a total of 12+14 is 26 printheads ! about 10 were OK tot start with.
I think i have recovered about 11 heads...  some heads had blocked channels or the colours channels were mixed.So About 5 printheads were beyond recovery.
Hve done it all at once otherwise it is just so much more work. (starting up and  cleaning all the ink colours over and over again.)

Foremost I think this is a good way to keep your printheads in shape if they perform well but lost too much ink. Below 55 gram is a good limit.
From now on I wll check the weight of the printheads  about every half year and do a refill if necessary.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 03:57:10 pm by kers »
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Kyle Jackson

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2024, 10:13:22 am »

Great result, Pieter! 🥳 And wow I'm impressed you did that many! 😮 My priming supplies are still scattered all over the table because I didn't finish them months ago lol... It definitely takes some time and patience to work through them.

Yeah I think blocked ones definitely need extra work, things like soaking the nozzles, or more severe options like a head cleaning fluid to help clear out the clogs.

Ones with mixed channels might be okay after printing enough with them (purge ink plots etc). My current theory is that colour mixing happens by reverse flow at the nozzle when one colour is very low or empty. In other words, there isn't an actual internal leak inside between the 2 compartments. Having seen them disassembled, I think it would require something very severe to cause an internal crack/break, like a car driving over it. So usually the mixed colour disappears in the first few inches of a print, indicating it's a small temporary thing. Priming it can help pull that out, and then running some prints to get fresh ink flowing should clear the rest out. Should know pretty quick if it's working ok. MK-R seems to have this problem the most in mine.

Although there's no hard rule, I think 55g is still too low for me. The problem is if only one colour is low. Empty is about 44g so there's there's a max of about 16g of usable ink, so only 7~8g per colour. If one side is missing 5g, then only 2~3g left. Since they are water based, roughly speaking 1g is almost 1mL of ink. So there could be only 2mL left in one side, which is a really small amount. The site/video where I first learned about weighing suggested 57g or less needs to be primed, so 58g+ is "ok". I mean they can obviously print at low levels, but the risk is getting one too low and causing permanent thermal damage to the head, plus just encountering other issues with ink delivery / colour consistency. So I keep working at it until I get to 60g (I think I stopped one of my very first ones at 59g). Some heads seem to take more effort than others to get fully primed.

Amazing you got so many going again tho, nice to have spares!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2024, 10:22:21 am by Kyle D Jackson »
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kers

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2024, 04:12:15 am »

If you do a calibration and one ink is missing then you know.
Then it is time to weigh it and do a refill. That will be below 50 grams i think...
I recovered a 47 gram head that prints wonderful now., but at 47 gram it disrupted the calibration by the missing ink and on re-entry it was now rejected by the printer.
it is just a matter of not keep using a 47 gram printhead. Then it will be fried.

My mixed ink was Grey in Gloss-Enhancer so your gloss layer is grayish.  Maybe you are right en putting more clean GE through the head will solve the problem ;  I can try.
I give up on blocked ones. it is more than just some nozzles; it is a complet block somehow.
Yes, indeed ideally there should be no air in the cartridge-tubes-head system- the new printheads come completely filled.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 01:47:06 am by kers »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2024, 09:33:58 am »

I was more concerned about the cause of the heads getting too low in ink capacity that I first tinkered an ink suction tool from a small vacuum pump + an empty wine bottle + tubes + a salvaged ink line connector needle. With that I could suck the head carriage tubes fast of any air there, little ink lost as the thin transparent tube shows the ink flow fast. The heads that I put back had soft food gradient tube parts put over the pins (6mm outer diameter, 1mm inner diameter) to make a better seal. Two Z3200 printers done that way. Seems to work well.

For flawed heads that I stored I do have some questions on refilling them. I tried to refill just the LG side of a too light PK LG head by using a salvaged cartridge connector plug that was inserted in the end of a PE tube of almost 150cm long filled with LG ink. My thought was that the additional pressure of 150cm ink column would be enough to get the ink in. It did not. I know I need a 10 meter column to get the same pressure difference a complete vacuum would give but is that much needed?
That double funnel type, do you need to fill both sides with the respective inks in order to get it all working? I understand that the syringe vacuum applied is all over the head nozzles and can not select just one ink channel but if the input side pin of one channel is blocked with halve an orange stop (halve the orange twin type that comes with a new head), would that work to fill the other side? It would be nice to just refill/reflow one ink channel, especially for heads like the Chromatic Red / MK where MK ink got into the Red side, pulling enough Chromatic Red through would be better than trying to get rid of it by printing red prints.
I have been into an old head and there are some parts near the inlets that may require both vacuum and ink supply to get it working. The sieves in the separate ink channel paths are quite large but could also get blocked too much for a rescue.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2024, 08:46:50 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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Kyle Jackson

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2024, 09:11:51 am »

For flawed heads that I stored I do have some questions on refilling them. I tried to refill just the LG side of a too light PK LG head by using a salvaged cartridge connector plug that was inserted in the end of a PE tube of almost 150cm long filled with LG ink. My thought was that the additional pressure of 150cm ink column would be enough to get the ink in. It did not. I know I need a 10 meter column to get the same pressure difference a complete vacuum would give but is that much needed?
That double funnel type, do you need to fill both sides with the respective inks in order to get it all working? I understand that the syringe vacuum applied is all over the head nozzles and can not select just one ink channel but if the input side pin of one channel is blocked with halve an orange stop (halve the orange twin type that comes with a new head), would that work to fill the other side? It would be nice to just refill/reflow one ink channel, especially for heads like the Chromatic Red / MK where MK ink got into the Red side, pulling enough Chromatic Red through would be better than trying to get rid of it by printing red prints.

Hi Ernst, I'd be interested in trying a softer seal material like you found. I was surprised that the ones sold by LPS Computers are rather hard. Maybe it still works, I don't know. What I found was that the heads sit higher in the printer carriage with those seals, like 1~2 mm. That makes me wonder about the effect on print qual. Also one of the heads gets rejected frequently (usually after a power reset) and wants to be reseated. I think it's not making proper electrical contact because of the seals. I cut the seals on that head slightly smaller but it's very difficult to get a clean cut surface on them. It seems to have fixed the head rejection, but now I doubt the seals work correctly because of the rough cut surface. I ordered some more from LPS but with shipping costs to Canada these things are ridiculously expensive, so interested in finding a better option to make them.

Omg yes I think there is no way a cartridge will fill with static pressure like that instead of a vacuum, at least not within our lifespan lol. Those nozzle holes are nearly microscopic. Pulling the pump syringe on these requires a lot of force just to move the plunger a little bit. You just hold the pressure as best as you can until it subsides enough to pull a little bit more. It is not a fast process. If you release the plunger it will actually snap back to lower position, there's a lot of suction. The stuff appearing in the syringe is a very bubbly foam, it's a lot of air. Some of that air appears to be suction leakage around the nozzle cap rather than air just from the printhead. It takes some practice to get used to it.

I thought about making a non-funnel method to refill the head directly from the printer head carriage with some tubing and connectors for the ports, to help reduce ink waste. But I haven't tried that experiment yet. A cleaning method between colours would need to be sorted out.

Yes the funnel method needs ink on both sides, otherwise the other side would just draw air into the printhead. I thought about a nozzle cap that covers only one side, but the 2 rows are so close together, and the suction is so strong, it might not be possible. I also thought about a plug over the inlet pin on one side, but then that would create a very strong vacuum inside the head that might break some things. The heads have delicate-looking bladders/bags in them that are connected to atmosphere through vent ports on the top of the head (to compensate for atmospheric pressure change I believe). Applying vacuum to a head with the inlet pin blocked might cause those to over-inflate and cause damage. I also worry about the seals between the ink compartments and printhead top that a strong vacuum might possibly pull out of position. Maybe it would be okay but it's difficult to know, and can't see if there is damage inside afterward. So it seems that accepting that there will be some ink wasted in the process is just the cost of saving the head (plus other ink, paper, etc in fighting print quality issues with an "airhead").

So in your MK-R example, just put ink in both sides of the funnel. Odds are there is air in the MK side too and will end up drawing ink in to both sides. The MK contamination into R is mostly at the nozzle itself I believe (and the R into the MK side, I've seen both...), so it should clear up when the fresh ink is pulled through the head.

Also make sure to check the error codes/status in the service manual first to make sure then printhead isn't fried, to avoid wasting effort refilling a dead head (like I did lol!).
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2024, 10:59:00 am »

All sound remarks, will buy the dual funnel etcetera but try the vacuum pump tool instead of the syringe.
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kers

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2024, 05:57:09 am »

my chinese filling product only can be used for oneley one ink at a time. And it worked.
on the input side only one channel is filled - on the output side a rubber gasket makes shure that ony one channel is sucked.
I need some manual pressure on the oulet tot be sure the connection on the head is working well.

at Ernst:  150 cm is not 150 ml pressure for the ink and tube have some adhesive power too.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2024, 03:19:37 am »

my chinese filling product only can be used for oneley one ink at a time. And it worked.
on the input side only one channel is filled - on the output side a rubber gasket makes shure that ony one channel is sucked.
I need some manual pressure on the oulet tot be sure the connection on the head is working well.

at Ernst:  150 cm is not 150 ml pressure for the ink and tube have some adhesive power too.

Pieter, the tube for that ink column has a 6mm inner diameter, capillary force does not play a role here.
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Kyle Jackson

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2024, 01:55:58 pm »

my chinese filling product only can be used for oneley one ink at a time. And it worked.
on the input side only one channel is filled - on the output side a rubber gasket makes shure that ony one channel is sucked.
I need some manual pressure on the oulet tot be sure the connection on the head is working well.

Interesting! Do you have a link for that nozzle cap? I like that idea of plugging the nozzles much better than plugging the input, so there is no vacuum inside the printhead to damage the air bladders.
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kers

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2024, 07:50:02 am »

I used this one :
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005003178137702.html
 in the rubber that you put on the printhead there is only one litlle hole on on side. So only one side of the funnel is in use ( i use a blackink side and a colour side)

I just did some more filling : my MK-R heads were not filled with MK , but they were filled with red recently:

I sucked some MK from the tubes after removing the head- there was no air in it
with the MK ink i filled the 56 gram head and came out with about 60 gram.
perfect nozzels with all my 2 printers now; ... knock knock

My idea is that if there is air in the tubes it will end up in the printheads.
so the tubes will remain filled - unless some air comes in while changing ink cartridges or when it is empty but the printer somehow wants to suck ink anyway..
-
Just bought second hand 2 'new' 2022 printheads for 70€
have no bad experience with neither old ink- or old printheads... so that makes life cheaper.

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Kyle Jackson

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2024, 10:22:31 am »


Thanks for the link Pieter! Ok yes I see that rubber insert in the nozzle cap is different from mine. Mine has single open area with a big hole in the middle, so no way to block one side. I'm going to get one of these to try instead so I can do one colour at a time.

The long needle in that kit is for ink cartridges?

Congrats on the successful refill!

LPS Computer's theory is that the air gets into the tubes over time because of small leakage at the seals where the printhead pins plug into the ports on the carriage, so they sell those seals for those mentioned earlier.

Wherever the air comes from, I think it increases if we do more headclean cycles. The printer puts the heads on the capping station and the priming pump applies suction to the nozzles (similar to how we refill them). So if air has a way in, the suction brings more of it into the system.

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kers

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2024, 04:32:48 pm »

...
The long needle in that kit is for ink cartridges?
..
Was surprised with that long needle too - is is a tube -not sharp end:
probably the Chinese know about problems that we overlooked...
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2024, 08:09:12 am »

Was surprised with that long needle too - is is a tube -not sharp end:
probably the Chinese know about problems that we overlooked...

Pieter,
is there a small hole at the side of that syringe tube or really at the flat point of the tube?
For the cartridges to suck out ink it does not matter that much, the needle/tube stays within the thicker polyethylene part and it will be hard to push through a wall there even if it had a sharp point. However a sharp point might make a second hole in the connector seal or wear the original hole out, not good if the cartridge has to be used again. I use a normal syringe needle cut shorter with a dremel disc and the remaining edge softened with fine sandpaper. Pull out the ink of near empty carts and keep the vacuum on while withdrawing the needle.
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kers

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2024, 08:16:52 am »

Pieter,
is there a small hole at the side of that syringe tube or really at the flat point of the tube?
For the cartridges to suck out ink it does not matter that much, the needle/tube stays within the thicker polyethylene part and it will be hard to push through a wall there even if it had a sharp point. However a sharp point might make a second hole in the connector seal or wear the original hole out, not good if the cartridge has to be used again. I use a normal syringe needle cut shorter with a dremel disc and the remaining edge softened with fine sandpaper. Pull out the ink of near empty carts and keep the vacuum on while withdrawing the needle.
a flat point, but you are right i also re-use the inlets from old prinheads
If you cut them loose leaving the plastic that permits to go deeper than necessary you can attach them to a injection tube. As you also did.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 08:25:10 am by kers »
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Kyle Jackson

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2024, 09:27:05 am »

Can you also refill a cartridge using that needle? A while ago I saw some cartridge refill tools/kits and they had a long needle like that. I didn't look at the details though because I was searching for something else.

Does a cartridge have a check valve in it, like a spring-loaded ball bearing seal to keep ink from leaking out? I'm curious about this partly because it relates to using a syringe to add/remove ink from a cartridge, but also because I wonder if purging air from the ink supply tubes at the printhead carriage is actually trying to pull suction against a closed check valve in the ink cartridge. I've notice some air pull attempts with the LPS syringe have strong resistance and then it suddenly "pops" and air/ink starts flowing into the syringe. It made me wonder if I was fighting a check valve in the ink cartridge, and creating a lot of suction inside the ink tubing. Made me worry about damaging something, or drawing in more air thru another seal somewhere in the ink tubing connections.

The operation of the ink cartridges and the role of the "bongos" is still a mystery to me. I mean it's not clear to me what actually drives the ink from the cartridges to the heads when needed, and stops it from flowing when it's not.

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kers

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2024, 05:09:00 am »

Never have tied to fill a cartridge, don't know.
The bongos probably push the rubber to press out some ink I guess?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2024, 09:17:35 am »

Can you also refill a cartridge using that needle? A while ago I saw some cartridge refill tools/kits and they had a long needle like that. I didn't look at the details though because I was searching for something else.

Does a cartridge have a check valve in it, like a spring-loaded ball bearing seal to keep ink from leaking out? I'm curious about this partly because it relates to using a syringe to add/remove ink from a cartridge, but also because I wonder if purging air from the ink supply tubes at the printhead carriage is actually trying to pull suction against a closed check valve in the ink cartridge. I've notice some air pull attempts with the LPS syringe have strong resistance and then it suddenly "pops" and air/ink starts flowing into the syringe. It made me wonder if I was fighting a check valve in the ink cartridge, and creating a lot of suction inside the ink tubing. Made me worry about damaging something, or drawing in more air thru another seal somewhere in the ink tubing connections.

The operation of the ink cartridges and the role of the "bongos" is still a mystery to me. I mean it's not clear to me what actually drives the ink from the cartridges to the heads when needed, and stops it from flowing when it's not.

In the HP 70, 772, 747, cartridges and more of that model there is no check valve behind the connector seal. However part of the black balloon ink pump system is a one way small black rubber disc valve that is between the pump chamber and the ink bag, if you put a needle of a filled syringe through the connector seal and you apply pressure on the syringe no ink will flow into the ink bag but pressure builds up in the pump chamber itself as the small black valve just blocks the ink flow. EDit: The cartridge slots have plungers that push in the black balloons/bongos and the small valves block the ink flow to the ink bags so the ink will go into the printer's ink tubes/lines, when the bongos inflate again they open the small valves again so ink flows from the ink bags into the pump houses. There is no need to have an extra valve near the pump to block the ink flow back from the ink line, the line is thin so some capillary force exists there and I think the heads have also a kind of one way valve system together with an adaptation to the environment's air pressure. At the upper part of the ink tube in the printer there is a check valve with a spring and a 3mm steel ball behind the connector seal where the head needle is pushed in. It will close the line when the head is removed. BTW, you can buy that part at Aliexpress, they know that the seal wears out over time. Quite messy to replace them at 12 spots I think.

Behind the bottom chip cap there is another inlet with a small rubber ball in it  You can fill the cartridge there.

Taking ink out from the HP70 etc cartridges at the connector seal is no problem and the same applies to pulling air/ink out at the head side of the ink tubes (check valve though so special needle needed) when all the cartridges are in the printer. Without cartridges you might pull in air though, there is a kind of valve system at the cartridge slot end of the tube that closes the needle when no cartridge is sitting over the needle there but whether it is completely air tight I doubt.

The larger HP cartridges like the HP775 do not have an ink pump but have a rigid airtight hull around the ink bag and air pressure is applied within that hull to pressurize the ink bag. Behind the connector seal of that type is a check valve with a spring and ball. All for faster machines with bigger heads. For the cartridges it is easier to use a needle with a hole at the side but it has to be near the tip of the needle. A normal syringe needle will bend along the ball and give issues.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
« Last Edit: June 27, 2024, 05:02:35 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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Kyle Jackson

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2024, 10:16:01 am »


Ah! Thanks Ernst, this is great detail! I had a good understanding of the printhead end of the system, but not the cartridge end.

Ok I couldn't find the cartridge I originally opened a few years ago so I just opened another one. And it's gloss enhancer so I can actually see inside that "pump" area more easily. I think I understand it now. Ink from the bag goes into that pump chamber (thru the rubber flap check valve that you mentioned), and then the pressure on the bongo from the printer pushes the ink into the cartridge "nozzle".

For funsies I actually tried working it by hand but of course nothing came out because there is no needle in the nozzle to let it out thru the seal.

I also see air in there and wonder whether this is normal or if this is why this cartridge was rejected by the printer (I have several cartidges like that, some are almost full). The air goes to the top so it might tolerate some amount of air but maybe after a certain amount it's too much, or air gets into the printer tubes.

I might try using a syringe in the nozzle section to remove some air and cause ink to move from the bag to the pump/nozzle area to prime it. It would be great if this is all it takes to make a cartridge work again!

I also see the "refill" hole you mention too, and how it appears to enter the plastic pump/nozzle housing just above the black flapper value.

It looks like neither hole (nozzle or filler) actually go directly up into the bag. It looks like both turn 90-degree corners inside the pump/nozzle plastic housing. So I don't need to worry about a syringe going into the bag and poking it. Also makes me confused why those refill kits have those really long needles..., maybe it's for a different type of cartridge for another printer? 🤷‍♂️

I might take one of the really dry cartridges and remove the bag so I can more clearly see the pump unit.

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samsterid

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2024, 11:18:17 pm »

Too many slightly different kits out there, but I am happy I got this one from LPS:

https://www.lpscomputer.com/products/updated-printhead-recovery-kit-for-hp-70-72-73-91-744-746-771-printheads?_pos=1&_sid=9ced0a00f&_ss=r

It has the dual funnel and two syringes - one for the ink lines and one for the printheads. The ink line syringe has the hole on the side and a depth limiter.
The printhead nozzle cap is designed to do just one color at a time, and then flip it for the other color.

I got all my low-weight printheads in my Z3100 44" up to 60 grams.
It is not as easy as the demo video on the above LPS page makes it look. A lot of small air bubbles coming up from the printheads and the ink lines at the carriage; it takes a lot of force and concentration to get all the air out.

I accidentally doubled up on the tiny silicone seals for the printheads on my first try, and then the printhead was sitting too high.
But I got that sorted, plus LPS even sent me some silicone seals free of charge when I probably misplaced one in the process.

Sam
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Kyle Jackson

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Re: Best way to restore a Z3200 contaminated by non-hp ink?
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2024, 10:32:51 am »

Too many slightly different kits out there, but I am happy I got this one from LPS:

https://www.lpscomputer.com/products/updated-printhead-recovery-kit-for-hp-70-72-73-91-744-746-771-printheads?_pos=1&_sid=9ced0a00f&_ss=r

It has the dual funnel and two syringes - one for the ink lines and one for the printheads. The ink line syringe has the hole on the side and a depth limiter.
The printhead nozzle cap is designed to do just one color at a time, and then flip it for the other color.

I got all my low-weight printheads in my Z3100 44" up to 60 grams.
It is not as easy as the demo video on the above LPS page makes it look. A lot of small air bubbles coming up from the printheads and the ink lines at the carriage; it takes a lot of force and concentration to get all the air out.

Hi Sam, many thanks for the details on this kit! The printhead nozzle cap doing one colour at a time is a key thing not mentioned in their description, and explains how they do one side only in their video without getting air into the opposite side. I need to get my hands on one of these one-sided caps somewhere, since I already have all the other parts. Would love to see a photo of the seal in that cap if you can post one.

Did you actually use the fluid in the kit? That part is a head-scratcher for me. I would expect it to require so much ink to go thru the head before all that fluid is gone and I'm getting consistent ink for print quality and colour accuracy again. I suspect it's intended for cases with really clogged nozzles, maybe as a last-ditch effort, and I feel in most cases it would be unnecessary. But I'm curious to hear from others who have tried it.

Yes it definitely takes some effort, especially purging the heads. The "stuff" going into the pump syringe when purging a head looks like a milkshake foam sometimes. Those nozzles are nearly microscopic so it's a lot of pressure and takes a while for it to flow thru them. We need like a ratcheting syringe so we can just inch it up a notch at a time without needing to hold it  :D

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