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Author Topic: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)  (Read 5374 times)

John Hollenberg

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2022, 03:56:34 pm »

I have Gigapixel and like it, but the comparison should be between up-rez with Photoshop (or super resolution in LR) vs up-rez with Gigapixel.  In many cases I don't see a difference, but sometimes Gigapixel is clearly better.  This is for landscape images.
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plugsnpixels

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2022, 04:14:24 pm »

I have Gigapixel and like it, but the comparison should be between up-rez with Photoshop (or super resolution in LR) vs up-rez with Gigapixel.  In many cases I don't see a difference, but sometimes Gigapixel is clearly better.  This is for landscape images.

Thanks John, back in December I did such a comparison, see if that is what you were looking for.
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John Hollenberg

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2022, 07:42:28 pm »

Thanks John, back in December I did such a comparison, see if that is what you were looking for.

It may work well for architecture, but for typical landscape images I find it to be better than Super Resolution about 20-25% of the time.  Often there are too many artifacts, but in some cases it does a great job.
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Benny Profane

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2022, 11:30:41 am »

Am I doing something wrong here? I understand that a watermark is necessary on the free trial version, but, the image is so obscured that I can't see an A/B comparison in Photoshop of the same image using Super Resolution and Gigapixel. Kind of negates the whole purpose of a free trial.
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plugsnpixels

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2022, 11:42:44 am »

Benny, can you show us what that watermark looks like?
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Benny Profane

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2022, 12:45:24 pm »

Benny, can you show us what that watermark looks like?

Both are crops of raw image with zero edits. No mark, Super resolution from Lightroom. Marked image, Gigapixel, 2X.

There is a profile issue here I can't figure out yet. I work in Adobe RGB, which the Super Rez image from Lightroom is. Gigapixel seems to give me it's own profile.
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digitaldog

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2022, 01:15:56 pm »

Both are crops of raw image with zero edits.
There is a profile issue here I can't figure out yet. I work in Adobe RGB, which the Super Rez image from Lightroom is. Gigapixel seems to give me it's own profile.
First, if indeed, you fed the product a raw, it's not in Adobe RGB (1998). But yeah, this product is pretty brain dead out of the gate in terms of color management. As you can see, there's an option after saving from an actual raw (this was a DNG of Mr. Schewe), you can select the following for saving the image's color space. I selected Preserve Source Profile just to see what it would come up with. Now, look at the processed incorrectly previewed image (left), which ended up in ProPhoto RGB compared to the original properly color managed and previewed in Lightroom Classic. Not even close. That it 'thinks' a DNG's source color space is ProPhoto RGB is pretty hilarious. It isn't of course.

So before you even futz with waiting for this product to download all kinds of files to even work in demo mode, then try to see the results with the watermark, be aware its ideas about color management is odd at best and wrong at worst.


« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 01:40:21 pm by digitaldog »
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digitaldog

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2022, 01:38:56 pm »

Here's another fun one: Open a proprietary raw (mine was a CR2), and use these settings below. If you think you'll end up with a CR2, nope.
If you think the color appearance of this processed DNG and the original as seen in ACR/LR match, nope again. Off by a mile color wise.
Needs more beta testing?
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Benny Profane

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2022, 02:13:52 pm »

The save with another profile option doesn't exist in trial mode. I'm not spending money to go further.
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digitaldog

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2022, 02:21:00 pm »

The save with another profile option doesn't exist in trial mode. I'm not spending money to go further.
I'm using the trial, it shows up for me. You'll see the watermark on the Schewe shot.
Not that it works as it should based on my experience outlined today.
Agreed, not worth the money if the behavior with raw data is as I've experienced. At least Adobe's Super Resolution works with respect to proper color management.
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plugsnpixels

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2022, 02:48:24 pm »

Thanks Andrew, I'm going to pass on your comments directly to the engineers and press them on this.

So in the meantime I guess we're left with either proper color management and poor results or improper color management and better results!
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digitaldog

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2022, 02:54:05 pm »

Thanks Andrew, I'm going to pass on your comments directly to the engineers and press them on this.
Well seems they need better beta testers! And less sales and marketing people.  ;)
Quote
So in the meantime I guess we're left with either proper color management and poor results or improper color management and better results!
That's a poor guess. Ugly, incorrect color rendering isn't ever acceptable. Now if this product refused to deal with raw data, only rendered images in a tagged color space, AND they honored that color apparence, you might have a point. But you don't based on two people here who tried feeding it raw data. Utterly unacceptable results. I don't expect their proprietary raw processing to match another's proprietary raw processing. That they do such a piss poor job of rendering, then try to pass off that they are giving you back the original raw (they are not) or that they are preserving as they tell us, the Source Profile of a raw only shows, "JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)" is more like JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (needs a lot more beta testing!)

IF they need help, they can ask, but in the meantime, I'd tossing all this software gunk below off my Mac.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 02:57:37 pm by digitaldog »
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plugsnpixels

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2022, 03:12:54 pm »

It would be fun to see you among the beta testers if you were interested. Your expertise in this area would go a long way.
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Chris Kern

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2022, 07:52:23 pm »

Ugly, incorrect color rendering isn't ever acceptable. . . . I don't expect their proprietary raw processing to match another's proprietary raw processing. That they do such a piss poor job of rendering . . .

I was using Topaz Gigapixel for quite a while before Adobe introduced its own machine-learning technique for increasing resolution.  The Topaz results never struck me as entirely satisfactory, but after trying several online alternatives it seemed like the best compromise.

Not so much anymore.

I have only a limited understanding of the design of neural networks, and I'm certainly no expert on color management, but my impression is that when fed a raw file, Gigapixel emits a completely rendered image (i.e., with respect to color, output-format-referred) even when you specify a DNG container as the destination file format, while Lightroom and Photoshop produce a DNG file that is still scene-referred so you can still make color adjustments without producing artifacts.

I still use both products, but as they continue to mature—I presume both software manufacturers are continually updating the "learning sets" they use to train their neural networks—I'm experiencing less need for Gigapixel except when I need to make massive increases in resolution.

The underlying machine-learning techniques are available to everyone, so the ability to manipulate raw RGB data and produce a manipulable output file is an important differentiator.  It seems reasonable that Adobe would have an edge here.  I suspect that how exactly Adobe manages to preserve the user's ability to manage the colors in the output file is a trade secret.  Somebody like Eric Chan could no doubt explain it, but I'm not holding my breath.

plugsnpixels

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2022, 08:23:16 pm »

Thanks Chris, that's an interesting take on the issue (the Adobe perspective).

I'm going to keep an eye on this issue as pertains to Topaz apps and try to understand the situation better and communicate the problems and recommendations to the developers.

Beta testers also use Affinity Photo as well as multiple camera models so the import/export issue comes up regularly, so it's not all on me to describe ;-).

As for the quality of Adobe's newer Super Resolution option, in my tests I was just not seeing any decent results – maybe my older crap photos were just too much for it! Obviously the better the input, the better the output...
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Chris Kern

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2022, 08:37:17 pm »

Thanks Chris, that's an interesting take on the issue (the Adobe perspective).

Just to avoid any misimpression: I'm not expressing an "Adobe perspective."   I have no involvement with Adobe except as a consumer purchaser of their products.  Same for Topaz.

plugsnpixels

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2022, 08:45:28 pm »

No problem, but if they've got something proprietary going on that others cannot interface with, that might be part of the issue here.
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digitaldog

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2022, 09:09:14 pm »

No problem, but if they've got something proprietary going on that others cannot interface with, that might be part of the issue here.
What does that mean?
They (everyones) raw processing is proprietary.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2022, 01:57:10 am »

... my impression is that when fed a raw file, Gigapixel emits a completely rendered image (i.e., with respect to color, output-format-referred) even when you specify a DNG container as the destination file format, while Lightroom and Photoshop produce a DNG file that is still scene-referred so you can still make color adjustments without producing artifacts.


I have the same impression.

digitaldog

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Re: JUST OUT OF BETA TESTING: Topaz Gigapixel AI 6.1 (need to see!)
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2022, 02:52:49 am »

I have the same impression.
All one has to do is examine a DNG from Gigapixel in RawDigger. It's a Linear DNG (RGB not RGBG) data.
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/linear.htm
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