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Author Topic: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration  (Read 4796 times)

TechTalk

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2022, 03:38:54 pm »

The internet and online forums being what they are equally good at providing accurate information and misinformation I would suggest that individuals take it upon themselves to learn what terminology tossed around online actually means and investigate topics of interest outside of online forum chatter.

If you are interested in the topic of display calibration, linked below is a white paper from highly respected color scientist Karl Lang. It's a 5-page concise introduction to the topic of display calibration and the various instruments used for measurement. It's a good place to start in developing an understanding of the underlying principles of measurement and calibration.

http://www.lumita.com/whitepapers/Display Calibration Devices: Methods, Accuracy, and Cost

* I just realized that I posted this same link on the previous page. I'm going to leave this link duplication. Since myth and misinformation are so often repeated online, it can't hurt to duplicate reliable and accurate information on occasion.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 05:22:30 pm by TechTalk »
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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2022, 04:25:32 pm »

At the other end of the spectrum, those wanting to dive into the deep end of the metrology (measurement sciences) pool... The International Committee for Display Metrology has an 800+ page free download available titled: Information Display Measurements Standard. Karl Lang is both a contributor and Subcommittee Chair for the committee's work in developing industry standards. Thanks Karl for continuing to advance color science understanding and technology!

https://www.sid.org/Standards/ICDM - Information Display Measurements Standard
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routlaw

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2022, 05:52:04 pm »

Notwithstanding the various perspectives on the capabilities and/or deficiencies of the Studio Display 8), ArtisRight on YouTube has some informative videos about how to access the complex wonderful world of color profiles and calibration on the Studio Display.

ArtisRight on Mac Studio Display Settings

Thanks for sharing this, great video and very informative! Apparently an individual can calibrate this display to any target they want or need. This certainly eases any concern about its capabilities. The methodology at first glance certainly seems a bit more convoluted and complex than the Spectra View/Multi Profiler software from NEC but it appears to get the job done.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2022, 05:52:18 pm »

While I haven't used an Apple Studio Display, I've looked at its calibration capability and compatibility. I do have a good deal of professional experience in the field of art reproduction (flat art, textiles, sculpture) and other color critical environments (primarily commercial advertising photography). Given the current limitations of the Apple Studio Display for hardware calibration, I cannot imagine any experienced user choosing this model for editing or "proofing" in a repro environment. Frankly, I wouldn't use any display that isn't easily calibrated as my capture monitor in that environment either. When it comes to color critical, art reproduction is especially critical.

While I use an Eizo in 30 bit mode, I don't pay much attention to the monitor settings doing repro printing. For that the critical issue is how accurate the captured image is, and how accurate it can be printed. The monitor has nothing to do with that path. Rather, I need a good scene referred image and a printer that has a gamut that encompasses the image's gamut. For really accurate repro where the image gamut exceeds the printer, let alone the monitor, I run the image through Matlab and create a OOG mask then tweak that part in Photoshop because Photoshop's OOG is not very precise (6 dE typical on a printer profile).

That said, I do depend on an accurate, well calibrated Eizo for soft proofing regular photos not used for repro. A good softproofing environment is valuable and that's the large majority of printing.
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routlaw

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2022, 06:05:26 pm »


This video is under six minutes and is worth watching if you are not already familiar with this process...

https://www.youtube.com/Advanced Soft Proofing Monitor Calibration

Good video, had not realized Eizo had taken soft proofing this far. However it was easy to see at least on my existing monitor he did NOT have everything precisely dialed in from print to display soft proof. Close but not dead on.

Thanks
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2022, 07:26:53 pm »

Thanks for sharing this, great video and very informative! Apparently an individual can calibrate this display to any target they want or need.

You can configure the display within the range of options provided. Calibrating the display is not the same thing. Calibration requires measuring the output with some kind of measuring device.

I understand that color management can quickly become somewhat difficult to fully grasp. It isn't made any easier to understand when the terminology is often misused.

Perhaps at some point I'll put together an FAQ to clarify some of this and to break down some of the more confusing terminology. For now within the current context...

Configuration is a selection process to target a device to a desired set of output values.

Calibration is a measuring process to determine specific output values of a device under test and comparing those measurements to the desired target values.

Once you have configured the desired target values, you can measure (calibrate) a device to determine how accurately your device output compares to your selected values. Depending on the device, you may be able to adjust the device output (perform hardware calibration) to more accurately conform the device to your desired output value parameters.
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routlaw

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2022, 07:56:49 pm »

You can configure the display within the range of options provided. Calibrating the display is not the same thing. Calibration requires measuring the output with some kind of measuring device.

I understand that color management can quickly become somewhat difficult to fully grasp. It isn't made any easier to understand when the terminology is often misused.

Perhaps at some point I'll put together an FAQ to clarify some of this and to break down some of the more confusing terminology. For now within the current context...

Configuration is a selection process to target a device to a desired set of output values.

Calibration is a measuring process to determine specific output values of a device under test and comparing those measurements to the desired target values.

Once you have configured the desired target values, you can measure (calibrate) a device to determine how accurately your device output compares to your selected values. Depending on the device, you may be able to adjust the device output (perform hardware calibration) to more accurately conform the device to your desired output value parameters.

Yes I realize all of this, thanks for the continued discussion.

However the Apple Studio Display IS calibratable as illustrated by the two videos presented by Arts Right in the link above. The actual link provided only goes through the various display settings and how to modify those, but the video just after the one linked above performed by the same fellow takes you through the entire process of creating a target then profiling to match that target using an X-Rite colorimeter and CalBrite (think this is correct) software. And as I stated previously the process is a bit convoluted compared to NEC's Spectraview/Multi Profiler software but it does get the job done. I would encourage you to watch both videos, not that you need education on color management or profiling monitors but it is an excellent in depth tutorial of the Apple Studio Display's capabilities which not only far exceed what I thought was possible with this display but which I also suspect is largely unknown to the general public and color management experts.

So is the Apple Studio Display the equal of the say an Eizo Color Edge? From my perspective it has some advantages such as potentially higher resolution if needed, while the Eizo in theory appears to have some color tuning advantages the ASD does not touch on. Keeping in mind this statement is only theoretical not empirical based upon actual use of either. Regardless I am inclined to believe the Apple Display has far more potential and versatility than previously thought.




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TechTalk

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2022, 08:12:14 pm »

While I use an Eizo in 30 bit mode, I don't pay much attention to the monitor settings doing repro printing. For that the critical issue is how accurate the captured image is, and how accurate it can be printed. The monitor has nothing to do with that path. Rather, I need a good scene referred image and a printer that has a gamut that encompasses the image's gamut. For really accurate repro where the image gamut exceeds the printer, let alone the monitor, I run the image through Matlab and create a OOG mask then tweak that part in Photoshop because Photoshop's OOG is not very precise (6 dE typical on a printer profile).

That said, I do depend on an accurate, well calibrated Eizo for soft proofing regular photos not used for repro. A good softproofing environment is valuable and that's the large majority of printing.

The repro process is both an art and a science, which makes it interesting. It's always a process in which the pursuit is achieving the best compromise because in the end it is never perfect. Done well, it's a best achievable representation of the artist's work.

I've never been involved in any repro process that doesn't involve someone at some point editing the captured image in an effort to achieve the best compromise in color accuracy and varying degrees of specific color correction for the creation of a master digital archive file. For that, an accurate monitor is essential. When printing, I have no doubt that you've mastered a process with further printer and media specific corrections to achieve the best possible printed output result.

Most of the time, I've been the person capturing the image to hand off to someone else for editing. Still, I want an accurate capture monitor because lighting is being adjusted to capture the desired amount of texture or surface qualities. All of which is another set of creative and artistic compromises and judgement calls for which an accurate display has proved to be essential.

Achieving a satisfying reproduction done to high standards isn't easy. It's a specialty requiring both some knowledge of the underlying science and some artistic skills and judgement in lighting, editing, and printing.
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2022, 08:26:09 pm »

Yes I realize all of this, thanks for the continued discussion.

My pleasure. Like many people involved in photography, I enjoy polite discussions regarding the technology that forms the basis for creating images. The better we understand it, the better we are able to control it to produce satisfying results.

I'll respond to the rest of your reply in small bites to try and prevent issues from getting mixed together unnecessarily.
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2022, 08:44:58 pm »

Good video, had not realized Eizo had taken soft proofing this far. However it was easy to see at least on my existing monitor he did NOT have everything precisely dialed in from print to display soft proof. Close but not dead on.

"Close but not dead on" is as much as one should expect. You're not likely to achieve more than that when comparing a transmissive image from a display to a reflective print.

The purpose of the video is to give a brief introduction to manually fine tuning color in a display thru software like Eizo ColorNavigator, NEC SpectraView II, or basICColor display 6 Pro. Hopefully, it was enlightening for you and will be for others.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2022, 09:29:43 pm »

I've never been involved in any repro process that doesn't involve someone at some point editing the captured image in an effort to achieve the best compromise in color accuracy and varying degrees of specific color correction for the creation of a master digital archive file. For that, an accurate monitor is essential. When printing, I have no doubt that you've mastered a process with further printer and media specific corrections to achieve the best possible printed output result.

I only do repro work where the print medium is reasonably close to that being reproduced. For instance, a water color repro on a matte print. For those it's pretty much science. Image capture consists of capturing the art as well as a set of several thousand printed patches with measured colors. Additionally, if available, a small set of colors made with the same media as the artwork and are measured with a spectro. Then a profile is made for the capture image and possibly adjusted by the metameric error that shows up on the small set's measurements against the photo image*. Goal is to make a print that, hung beside the original in the same light, looks exactly the same.

For other repro work I would expect more artistic effort. Getting something that most closely resembles an artwork is clearly more complicated. Vision variation with different media can be quite hard to manage and people may have different preferences as to what comes the closest to a good repro.

* I've come across some research out of RIT that significantly reduces metameric error by using multiple captures with either different lens filters or a set of different spectral illuminants but I haven't pursued that myself.
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2022, 09:37:59 pm »

Actually, I considered bringing up watercolors vs oils vs mixed media (which may contain metallics), but I didn't want to get too deep in the weeds. Plus, I have a bad tendency to become too wordy for forums like this.

The RIT research is interesting. You're probably aware of the Sinar CTM system developed with RIT along the lines that you mentioned.

* https://sinar.swiss/products/cameras/ctm

** It's hard to find very much about it on Sinar's website anymore, but this gives more detail...

http://www.capturescanprint.com/_pdf/Sinar_CTM-Information_EN.pdf
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 09:53:15 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2022, 09:57:42 pm »

However the Apple Studio Display IS calibratable as illustrated by the two videos presented by Arts Right in the link above. The actual link provided only goes through the various display settings and how to modify those, but the video just after the one linked above performed by the same fellow takes you through the entire process of creating a target then profiling to match that target using an X-Rite colorimeter and CalBrite (think this is correct) software.

That the Apple Studio Display has some ability for some degree of hardware calibration has not been in dispute. I'm sorry if that was unclear.

There are options for calibrating and for creating profiles, Apple has just hidden them or made them inconvenient for users.

In addition to the Calibrite ccStudio software, another free option... would be DisplayCal. DisplayCal provides a broad array of capabilities.

That the Apple Studio Display lacks any comprehensive user friendly calibration software and has inherent limitations in its hardware calibration has been pointed out. Those are legitimate considerations for anyone that wants or needs those functions and features, but not everyone does.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2022, 10:07:25 pm »

Actually, I considered bringing up watercolors vs oils vs mixed media (which may contain metallics), but I didn't want to get too deep in the weeds. Plus, I have a bad tendency to become too wordy for forums like this.

Funny you mention that. To some degree one can simulate specular material by a combination of special processing and lighting. If you increase the illumination on a print in such a way that observers can't tell what you are doing, you can make parts of a print appear to be emitting light. For instance, a print with a window in a room that appears unnaturally bright. As if the window was actually there casting light on a subject.

This requires some pretty special lighting, measurements, and image processing but the effect is quite stunning. Trick is to blend things and mask the lighting so what you are doing is hidden. Similar techniques might work for metallic media or anything with specular components. Very tricky to do right.  I've done the former at home where I can control things as a cool experiment as I rather enjoy the math/science behind it. Not my main thing, just a lark.
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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2022, 10:32:53 pm »

Art reproduction is a challenge. Water colors by their nature tend to be somewhat easier to please everyone with in reproducing. Oils, not so much as everyone seems to have a different opinion on how flat the lighting should have been. Mixed media can be really difficult at times. Textiles can be difficult as well with their own unique challenges.

It took some years of digging my way thru other digital imaging trenches before I felt comfortable to begin tackling repro work. Doing laborious catalog work taught efficiency and precision. Moving into commercial advertising allowed more time and exploration into technique along with the higher quality demands. The final challenge on a technical level has been art repro. But, I do enjoy the challenges it presents.
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2022, 10:37:30 pm »

And as I stated previously the process is a bit convoluted compared to NEC's Spectraview/Multi Profiler software but it does get the job done.

It is a convoluted process. It gets the job done within the limitations imposed.

I would encourage you to watch both videos, not that you need education on color management or profiling monitors but it is an excellent in depth tutorial of the Apple Studio Display's capabilities which not only far exceed what I thought was possible with this display but which I also suspect is largely unknown to the general public and color management experts.

I actually watched all of his videos on the Apple Studio Display shortly after he posted them to YouTube. He has at least five of them on that display. I also looked into other online information about the display, including what Apple has on their site. Unfortunately, the display has far less in terms of calibration capabilities than what I would have hoped for in a display in its price range.

It looks great, it apparently has good speakers, and as I've repeatedly said appears to have excellent factory calibration, color, and stability. It's a great display for a lot of people. Ease and depth of calibration capabilities is not its strong suit, however. So, like every other product I've ever encountered, it's not ideal for everyone.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2022, 10:56:55 pm »

Art reproduction is a challenge. Water colors by their nature tend to be somewhat easier to please everyone with in reproducing. Oils, not so much as everyone seems to have a different opinion on how flat the lighting should have been. Mixed media can be really difficult at times. Textiles can be difficult as well with their own unique challenges.

Yep. Thats the sort of thing one learns by lots of experience. People and taste varies. And there really is no way to create an exact repro of an oil unless one is going to look at it under identical lighting conditions of the original. So doing the best that most like is more the goal and one needs lots of experience. Change lighting directions even small amounts and things no longer match exactly.

Not for everyone including me. I'd not be good at it.
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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2022, 05:56:13 pm »

So is the Apple Studio Display the equal of the say an Eizo Color Edge?

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore the last part of your reply.

No. The Apple Studio Display is not the equal of an Eizo ColorEdge monitor and an Eizo ColorEdge monitor is not the equal of the Apple Studio Display. They are two different products designed with a different set of priorities for target markets that have some overlap, but are still distinctly different.

The Apple Studio Display is designed for a broad market desiring cool industrial design, high resolution and brightness, multi-speaker sound system, video conferencing features (camera and multiple mics), and excellent color performance. For many consumers and some content creators, it will be much appreciated for everything it offers.

Eizo ColorEdge monitors are designed for a very specific market looking for the highest levels of consistency, uniformity, and accuracy; widest gamut; and maximum user options and control over color, contrast, and calibration. The market that ColorEdge models target appreciate the additional options, control, and ease of calibration they offer.

Users for whom the unique features offered by an Apple Studio Display are a priority should buy an Apple Studio Display. Users for whom the unique features offered by Eizo ColorEdge monitors are a priority should buy an Eizo. All the online chatter and comparisons should then just be put aside and the monitor chosen used and enjoyed.
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routlaw

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2022, 06:13:00 pm »

Had to temporarily abandoned the conversation, do to yet another issue which I still cannot resolve. Had my Mac Mini M1 working perfectly with my existing older NEC PA 271W, then changed back to my Mac Pro for a quick photo shoot at which point I can no longer get the Mac Mini to hand shake with the NEC monitor. Tried different cables, eliminated the docking station all the usual suspects of narrowing down the culprit all to no avail. The Mini works perfectly via other monitors just not now with the NEC. As my wife always says, "its always something". Starting to think she is right.

Back to color management, monitors and other things related since my last post. First for those of you who still might want an NEC Spectraview Monitor I have found at least one vendor who still has 4 of the PA271Q models in stock and that is DTG Web down in Florida. Given that NEC is no longer supporting these at this point I am some what reticent to buy one however, still cogitating on this one. I did ask their resident expert on monitors at DTG about this issue of self calibrating monitors and his response effectively yes as good as these newer monitors are he felt periodic calibration is just as important for a litany of different reasons which have been described extensively in this discussion.

At this point I felt it was in my best interest to give Eizo another try. Called yesterday and this conversation went demonstrably different than my issues with the company some 10 or so years ago with a tech support guy who knew the products and shared a wealth of information not only about the various monitors Eizo makes but also in comparison with other brands and did this in a way it wasn't trash talk about the competitor. Understand the Eizo CG 2730 is no longer avialble as that line of monitor is being replaced with the newer 2700S and 2700X series. Neither of those are currently available but the 2700S is due to be released either in late June or perhaps early July and the X version much later in the year around Q3. There might be some vendors who still have some of the older models in stock.

Have not had a chance to look at the other videos by Art is Right but will do so just to leave no stone unturned. Thanks for the heads up on that one, which I had not noticed.

Agreed art copy work is a science project with a little bit of art thrown in. Not everyone is up to the task, not everyone sees color acutely enough especially the subtle variations, and not everyone knows how to properly color correct. Like others have stated this endeavor always without exception requires some post production tweaking to dial things in correctly and most importantly those corrections (assuming excellent success) are only good for the space within which the original art and proof are created. Granted modern printers have come a long way to eliminate metamerism (sp?) but it still exist to some degree. My situation is a one many show, in that I photograph, edit and proof and print (when required) the entire enchilada unless handing files off to offset printers for articles, promotion and that sort of thing, but then that is always a crap shoot at best.

From my perspective I don't find one type of media to be more problematic than another, ie watercolor, oils, acrylics but rather the type or individual pigments used within the media. A perfect example would be the use of cobalt blue which under any lighting will turn purple or reddish blue due to its exhibiting of infrared wavelength. In the older days with the Betterlight system the fix would be to double up on the infrared filters which of course cuts the light volume down considerably, not idea for the scan back. Other blues can demonstrate this to lesser and varying degrees but none as detrimental as cobalt. Like many of you I have done extensive product photograph especially in the outdoor recreation industry where synthetic cloth and synthetic dyes are used extensively for the products clothing etc. Talk about some serious metamerism! Before the days of digital imaging while working on one project for a company that made backpacks with a brilliant jade-teal colored pack cloth regardless of the film, regardless of the light source that cloth always rendered a sky blue. We literally tried every color film available on the market at that time regardless of light source required to work with and got the same exact results more or less within the constraints of the the color palette of a particular film. Filters were a mixed blessing because they obviously created a color cast where you didn't want them. In the digital domain some 20 or 30 years later this would be easily correctable, not so with film. If I recall correctly the world was on the origin Photoshop 2 or 3, its come a long ways since them.
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routlaw

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Re: Apple iMac & Studio Displays - Display Calibration
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2022, 06:19:05 pm »

Whoops, forgot to mention with the Eizo rep I also asked him about automated color calibration. He minced no words in stating while the CG color edge monitors can automatically color calibrate at chosen times as far as hew know none of the Eizo were self monitoring to the point no calibration was ever needed. Said he had been working for Eizo for 16-17 years. I figured he knew what he was talking about. He used the term of "self evaluating".
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