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Author Topic: Epson media installer --> Color rendering  (Read 740 times)

Cornelius

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Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« on: March 05, 2022, 11:54:37 am »

Hi guys

Just got my new Epson SC-P7500 (in US I guess it's called 7570) and printing my first sheets. Now I'm a bit confused with the Epson media installer. I actually like to concept, especially that I can link a ICC profil right to the custom paper. But how about the color rendering. I guess the Epson printer is then using relative colorimetric. Which is fine for most of my prints. But how about using perceptual. Can I just use the custom paper setting, which has the correct ICC profil installed on the printer but instead of "use printer driver" for color correction, use Lightroom, choose my color profile and select perceptual in Lightroom?

Cheers
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deanwork

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2022, 05:59:16 pm »

Ask here.

https://groups.io/g/EpsonWideFormat/messages



Hi guys

Just got my new Epson SC-P7500 (in US I guess it's called 7570) and printing my first sheets. Now I'm a bit confused with the Epson media installer. I actually like to concept, especially that I can link a ICC profil right to the custom paper. But how about the color rendering. I guess the Epson printer is then using relative colorimetric. Which is fine for most of my prints. But how about using perceptual. Can I just use the custom paper setting, which has the correct ICC profil installed on the printer but instead of "use printer driver" for color correction, use Lightroom, choose my color profile and select perceptual in Lightroom?

Cheers
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Remko

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2022, 10:27:18 am »

Hi guys

Just got my new Epson SC-P7500 (in US I guess it's called 7570) and printing my first sheets. Now I'm a bit confused with the Epson media installer. I actually like to concept, especially that I can link a ICC profil right to the custom paper. But how about the color rendering. I guess the Epson printer is then using relative colorimetric. Which is fine for most of my prints. But how about using perceptual. Can I just use the custom paper setting, which has the correct ICC profil installed on the printer but instead of "use printer driver" for color correction, use Lightroom, choose my color profile and select perceptual in Lightroom?

Cheers

I do not have your printer ...... in my experience though with other (Epson) printers you set your rendering intent in the application you are printing from. Be it PS, Affinity Photo, Qimage, LR etc.. Would be very surprise if that has been changed.

Just give it a try and let us know.

cheers,
Remko
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Cornelius

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2022, 02:53:36 am »

I do not have your printer ...... in my experience though with other (Epson) printers you set your rendering intent in the application you are printing from. Be it PS, Affinity Photo, Qimage, LR etc.. Would be very surprise if that has been changed.

Just give it a try and let us know.

cheers,
Remko

It has changed, or at least there is a new option, where you can switch off the LR/PS color management and let the driver/printer do the job. The Epson media installer also contains the iCC profil, which you can add manually to a custom paper setting. But I still have to figure out how to set the driver the right way. Epson explains the concept on Youtube but does not guide you through the driver settings. 🙈
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Remko

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2022, 06:02:09 am »

It has changed, or at least there is a new option, where you can switch off the LR/PS color management and let the driver/printer do the job.
Why would you let the driver do the job? Or do I misunderstand you?

cheers,
Remko

N.B. Suggestion: have a look at the extensive review over at PhotoPXL of the Epson P900. If something has changed, the chance is that it will be mentioned and explained how to handle it. The review is that thorough.
The P900 also has the EMI.
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Cornelius

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2022, 06:30:56 am »

Why would you let the driver do the job? Or do I misunderstand you?

cheers,
Remko

N.B. Suggestion: have a look at the extensive review over at PhotoPXL of the Epson P900. If something has changed, the chance is that it will be mentioned and explained how to handle it. The review is that thorough.
The P900 also has the EMI.

Well, because it works. 😎 I've watched several Youtube videos about the P900 and EMI. The main idea is, you create a custom paper incl. all detail settings like margin, roll diameter, suction, paper thickness, platen gap etc. AND the ICC profile from the paper manufacturer. Now you can register your paper at the printer. When loading the paper, you choose the corresponding paper at the printer.
Now when printing out of Lightroom, Photoshop or any other application, you choose "colors by printer" and within the driver just instead of choosing a paper type, you can select "use printer settings". As you already have choosen the paper profile incl. the ICC profil at the printer when loading the paper, all settings are done.

So far the theory. I tested several papers now (Tecco PD190, PFR295, PFR220, PPG250). At least for these papers it seams to work quite well.
At least for the PD190 and PFR220 the colors are slightly more saturated, reds are a bit less orange and the contrast is a bit higher compared to prints, where I used the Lightroom color management (same ICC profile).

Thx for the hint to the PXL review. Gonna look at this too. Personally, I really like the concept of installing custom media incl. all paper specific settings and ICC profil right on the printer. Less possible error you can do in Lightroom/driver. But at least I have to figure out the thing with the reds. The results with Lightroom CM are looking a bit closer to the EIZO screen. But honestly contrast and saturation (which comes higher using the printer for CM) are closer to what I see on my screen.

Update
I also tested the Ilford Smooth Cotton RAG. Here the CM process via printer does not work. Prints are way to cold and also the dark areas look aweful. No contrast, no blacks.. I guess this is, what many (also here at LL forum) say about the EMI. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. 🙈

Update 2
Had a firmware update for the printer (now done), restarted my Mac and reregistered the ILFORD smooth cotton rag. Tried again with CM via printer. Print now looks okay. Still, it's to cold. But general colors and okay, contrast and blacks are good.

So far, it seems you  have to figure for which paper/ICC profile the Epson workflow works and for which not. 🙈
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 07:06:01 am by Cornelius »
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Remko

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2022, 07:48:56 am »

Well, because it works. 😎 I've watched several Youtube videos about the P900 and EMI. The main idea is, you create a custom paper incl. all detail settings like margin, roll diameter, suction, paper thickness, platen gap etc. AND the ICC profile from the paper manufacturer. Now you can register your paper at the printer. When loading the paper, you choose the corresponding paper at the printer.
Now when printing out of Lightroom, Photoshop or any other application, you choose "colors by printer" and within the driver just instead of choosing a paper type, you can select "use printer settings". As you already have choosen the paper profile incl. the ICC profil at the printer when loading the paper, all settings are done.

So far the theory. I tested several papers now (Tecco PD190, PFR295, PFR220, PPG250). At least for these papers it seams to work quite well.
At least for the PD190 and PFR220 the colors are slightly more saturated, reds are a bit less orange and the contrast is a bit higher compared to prints, where I used the Lightroom color management (same ICC profile).

Thx for the hint to the PXL review. Gonna look at this too. Personally, I really like the concept of installing custom media incl. all paper specific settings and ICC profil right on the printer. Less possible error you can do in Lightroom/driver. But at least I have to figure out the thing with the reds. The results with Lightroom CM are looking a bit closer to the EIZO screen. But honestly contrast and saturation (which comes higher using the printer for CM) are closer to what I see on my screen.

Update
I also tested the Ilford Smooth Cotton RAG. Here the CM process via printer does not work. Prints are way to cold and also the dark areas look aweful. No contrast, no blacks.. I guess this is, what many (also here at LL forum) say about the EMI. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. 🙈

Update 2
Had a firmware update for the printer (now done), restarted my Mac and reregistered the ILFORD smooth cotton rag. Tried again with CM via printer. Print now looks okay. Still, it's to cold. But general colors and okay, contrast and blacks are good.

So far, it seems you  have to figure for which paper/ICC profile the Epson workflow works and for which not. 🙈

I asked as you will get (a bit) better print quality when selecting "application manages color" with Color Handling instead of "Printer manages color". So in PS it then looks like "Photoshop manages color"......

What you seem to suggest is that with your new printer, Epson somehow changed the software of LR or PS. To me that seems not very likely; they can changes the options to choose from but not so much the software.

There is indeed something new - but that is in the printer driver itself. At the Media Type you now have the new option "Use Printer Settings". You mentioned that already. You can select that and it will then use the choices you made via the printer's touch screen for media type etc, so you do not have to make those choices again in the printer driver. But that has nothing to do with letting the printer manage colors.

The only reason I see for letting the printer manages colors is for B&W printing as that is the only way to use Epson's ABW.

Why not giving it a chance?

cheers,
Remko
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hubell

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2022, 07:49:17 am »

Yes, use the EMI to create custom paper settings that will be registered with the printer and that you can select on the LCD. However, when you make a print from Photoshop, you should still select "Photoshop Manages Colors" in the driver, select the appropriate ICC profile for that printer, and select whatever rendering intent you want. Then, go to Print Settings, and select the appropriate Media Type (the ones that you created or were already there in the EMI should appear), the printer resolution, and any other custom settings that you want. Hit Save. Then hit print. Try it. It works for me. I use the Print Driver in Photoshop just the way I used to use it. However, I also now have to make sure that I select the same Paper Type on the Printer itself. The one other thing to note is that there are certain settings that you need to make for the Paper Type in the Printer itself, and some in the Print Driver (e.g., Color Density).
The EMI was SUPPOSED to simplify the print workflow. IMO, it just made the workflow more confusing, because the the interaction between what you can/need to set in the printer versus what you can/need to set in the print driver from Photoshop is unclear, to put it mildly. And, Epson has not provided any useful information about it. The Manual for the 7570/9570 does not even reference the EMI. I just purchased a 9570 and went through all of these gyrations figuring out how this works, and was helped tremendously by several posters here and at another website that shall go unnamed and the Epson Wide Format Group referenced above.
I hope this helps.

Cornelius

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2022, 08:06:14 am »

@ Remko & hubell
I guess it's a pitty that Epson is not providing any substantial documentation for the EMI. On Youtube you finde 3 short clips (2-5min each) from Epson itself about the EMI. There they clearly show, that you "can" add ICC profil to custom papers and let the printer to the CM. So IMO this is still the idea from Epson to simplify the whole print process. I mean it would be absolutely wonderful if you just define paper/image size on the computer and then send the print job to the printer and the printer takes care for all the rest, related to the installed paper. For me, this sounds absolutely nice. 😎 At least, I wanted to give this concept a chance. 😇

But I see, in practice it's not working as flawless as Epson shows in their Youtube videos. At least in my case, depending on paper type, vendor and ICC profil, the colors look either perfect (e.g. Tecco PPG250 compared printer CM vs. LR CM, no big difference. Colors/contrast are even a bit better with printer CM) to okay and aweful. I've read many topics and posts about the EMI prior the delivery of my new 7500 (that how the 7570 is called here in Switzerland). Looks like this is exactly the issue. Idea is great, but how Epson implemented/programmed everything it is only partially usable. 🤷‍♂️ And they do not provide any documentation.

@ hubell
There is a super tiny note (about 2 sentences) about the EMI within the P9570/7570 manual. Just like, we have a media installer which you can use, when printing on 3rd party paper. Thats all.. 🙈

For the moment, I have installed all my papers from Ilford/Tecco and might still keep Lightroom for CM. What is still nice, to keep the driver at "use printer paper settings" and just select the paper type at the printer, when loading sheet or roll. For me, this is already a tiny bit easier compared to the old way (9890).
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greyscale

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2022, 10:57:24 pm »

Theres a Utube video from Wayne Fox that gives step by step instructions, that show how to install a third party paper profile into a Epson printer. :)
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aaron125

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Re: Epson media installer --> Color rendering
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2022, 08:21:43 am »

@ Remko & hubell
I guess it's a pitty that Epson is not providing any substantial documentation for the EMI. On Youtube you finde 3 short clips (2-5min each) from Epson itself about the EMI. There they clearly show, that you "can" add ICC profil to custom papers and let the printer to the CM. So IMO this is still the idea from Epson to simplify the whole print process. I mean it would be absolutely wonderful if you just define paper/image size on the computer and then send the print job to the printer and the printer takes care for all the rest, related to the installed paper. For me, this sounds absolutely nice. 😎 At least, I wanted to give this concept a chance. 😇

But I see, in practice it's not working as flawless as Epson shows in their Youtube videos. At least in my case, depending on paper type, vendor and ICC profil, the colors look either perfect (e.g. Tecco PPG250 compared printer CM vs. LR CM, no big difference. Colors/contrast are even a bit better with printer CM) to okay and aweful. I've read many topics and posts about the EMI prior the delivery of my new 7500 (that how the 7570 is called here in Switzerland). Looks like this is exactly the issue. Idea is great, but how Epson implemented/programmed everything it is only partially usable. 🤷‍♂️ And they do not provide any documentation.
In the end, what difference/improvement are you actually going to see from the method you mentioned, using Printer CM? It seems like it actually requires more time and effort to create a print as now you not only have to set some things in the driver and Photoshop, but youíd then also have to go over to wherever your printer is located and then make more setting changes on the printer itself, as opposed to simply doing everything from the computer?

Itís been a few years since I last had an Epson printer but on the Canon equivalent application, one does all the same things youíve mentioned but in the driver there is the option to select the rendering intent of your choice - perhaps Epson has something similar in the Epson drivers that appears when you select the Printer CM option?

For what itís worth, I think these kind of applications are great for being able to create a new media type of our choice for our custom papers because then itís easier to select the paper weíre printing on rather than having to remember paper X-premium lustre, paper Y-premium glossy, paper Z-Velvet fine art, etc. Also, I very much appreciate being able to see which kind of paper I used in the accounting application because without the custom media type one has to struggle to remember what paper they used on a print 2 months ago, etc. But as far as improving colour accuracy, print quality or ease of use I donít see any advantages whatsoever.

Specifically regarding colour accuracy, how is it possible that selecting Printer CM allows for greater accuracy? If the profile is created using the exact same printer/driver settings and the only difference is that you select either Printer CM and the profile is selected and applied within the driver or Photoshop/Application CM where the profile is selected and applied within Photoshop? All else being the same, the printer is in specific configuration and it is this configuration which is being characterised by the profile creation app. Therefore, presumably the colour accuracy is still determined by the combination of the repeatability of the printer and the profile. Whether the driver or application applies said profile, why would that have any effect on the degree of colour accuracy or print quality?
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