Epson P7570 damaging print surface

[soboyle]

I'm printing on Red River Ultrapro Semigloss Duo 255 with my Epson P7570, printing on both sides of the paper, and am seeing marks that run parallel to the direction of the print head travel. They are located in the center of the 11x17 print. The damage seems to be happening on the back side of the paper, not the side that is being printed. I wonder if they might be caused by the vacuum pulling to hard on the print surface. I've already tried going to a -4 vacuum, which did not fix the issue. See attached images. Any thoughts on the cause or fix?

[Rand47]

It looks like the lower portion of the head is dragging through the ink. If any of the things I’ve listed below is not taken into consideration, you can have the paper “swell” (especially in the middle, and especially with dark color) and the head will strike/drag through it.

Several suggestions:

1.  Make sure you’re running the latest firmware in the printer.
2.  Make sure you measured the caliper of the paper manually, and use that dimension in creating the custom media in the Epson Media installer - rather than just the default thickness of the Epson media you built it from.
3.  You’re doing the wrong thing lessening the vacuum.  It needs to be increased, not decreased.
4.  Increase the platen gap.
5.  Reduce the ink density by 10%.
6.  Increase the drying time per pass of the head.
7.  Let the prints cure overnight before printing on the reverse side.

I’ve listed these in the order you might want to try in resolving the issue.   Also, if you’re using the Enhance Black Overcoat feature, this will increase the likelihood of this happening and makes the considerations mentioned above more critical.

Rand

[soboyle]

Thanks Rand.
This is happening on the back side of the paper, not the side being printed. I ran 50 prints one sided with no issues. I didn't notice the issue until I started printing on the back side, which immediately showed up in dark areas. While printing the back side, the side printed first was getting damaged. So I end up with both sides of the print showing these marks.
The damage is only happening in one location on the paper, one strip down the middle of the print, about 1/8" wide, in the same location on all prints. So the printer is somehow damaging the back side of the paper while I'm printing the front side. That is why I thought it might be the vacuum pulling too hard on the surface of this paper while it is parked in one position before or after printing.

I'll check your suggestions about caliper etc. but this seems like a different issue. 

[Rand47]

Thanks Rand.
This is happening on the back side of the paper, not the side being printed. I ran 50 prints one sided with no issues. I didn't notice the issue until I started printing on the back side, which immediately showed up in dark areas. While printing the back side, the side printed first was getting damaged. So I end up with both sides of the print showing these marks.
The damage is only happening in one location on the paper, one strip down the middle of the print, about 1/8" wide, in the same location on all prints. So the printer is somehow damaging the back side of the paper while I'm printing the front side. That is why I thought it might be the vacuum pulling too hard on the surface of this paper while it is parked in one position before or after printing.

I'll check your suggestions about caliper etc. but this seems like a different issue.

Ah, I understand better now.  I think you’re right.  Can you see damage to the surface of the “back side” (after printing the first side) before you go to print on it?

Rand

[soboyle]

Yes, it is there after I print the front side, difficult to see unless looking for it, until dark ink hits it.
When I dial in -4 vacuum, I'm not hearing a difference in the sound of the vacuum system, it doesn't sound like it is changing.
I'm going to check that I have the latest firmware and see if there is any difference.

[HartmanPrints]

I would also try a platen gap adjustment like Rand suggested. That solved multiple similar issues on my p7570. I have mine at 1.6 or 1.8 depending on the media thickness and curl.

-J

[Mick Sang]

There is no fix for this issue as yet. Our 9570 is plagued by this issue on the print side of the sheet, randomly, no matter whether the roll is new or nearing the end. Fortunately it has not happened as YET on sheets. But we purchased this printer to print on rolls - not sheets. We have several flat bed printers for printing on sheets already.

We have had our 9570 for 2 years now and this, above all, is the only persistent issue for which there appears to be no solution as yet. The printer prints beautifully when it works perfectly. But, printing large sheets is ALWAYS a great concern. Sometimes, it takes 3 prints before one perfect print is achieved. We have never had a printer which creates so much wasted ink and paper. The head is simply to damn close to the platen and the techs know this. We have tried maximum platen gap along with maximum paper thickness  - which was 3 times that of the paper on which we were printing, to the extreme detriment of print quality  - to no avail. It has been almost impossible to get a clean print on Hahnemuhle Torchon 285 gsm especially on 36" rolls We got one recently from a 44" roll. That was cause for celebration. I'm not kidding. And of course Epson completely disavowed themselves of any responsibility due to the fact that the paper is a "third party" paper. BUT, when it occurred on Hot press Natural and Legacy Baryta they had no more excuses. Then they sent a Decision One tech along with a package containing major components including head, capping station etc.  Nevertheless, so far after 3 Decision One visits and one new head they have been unable to solve the issue.

During a recent visit by a Decision One tech, I was told by the tech that this is an extremely common issue for which they have yet to find any solution. The tech then added "I hate that machine." Now I understand why they put those lights inside the platen area. It is so we are able to watch every stroke of the print head, watching for the infamous head scrape or whatever it is at which point we can abort the print and mitigate damage.

I am sorry for the bad news. We will not rest until a satisfactory solution is found.

Mick

[Mick Sang]

I should add that this "scuffing" may not occur so frequently on the 7570 since it is a 24" machine. We have found that 24" rolls fare much better through the 9570 than do 36" and 44" rolls where the scuffing is much more common.

Mick

[deanwork]

Wow. Thanks for that info. I’ve been on the fence about the 9570 since the beginning. I need a new 44” but have waited for over a year.  If I were in your shoes, which I’m not, I’d call Epson and tell them that I’m a professional and there are just certain types of Epson fine art media that my clients demand and it must work normally, OR replace the printer and keep replacing the printer until one works. If everyone did that they would have to fix this. They have had years during the pandemic to get their shit together. Otherwise like you said, the prints are awesome . The bw is great, right out of the ABW software and the speed and longevity are awesome.

There are other professionals who seem to be cranking out work everyday on this printer and have gotten beyond the scraping issues somehow with firmware updates etc., at least last time I heard, after having real issues the first year. I can live with it jerking paper off the roll at the very end but I can’t live with wasting ink and paper. Materials are already so expensive that it’s difficult to make money, except when doing big editions on a very fast machine.

This post worries me all over again because there are no other machines out there besides the older Epsons that I would use, especially not Canon with their horrible longevity and horrible black and white neutrality.

This is their flagship printer now and they have to make it work. Another thing I’m shocked about is how little postings there have been about this 9570 issue on these forums the last couple of years.

Is it possible that this is only occurring primarily on very stiff media. Torchon, and Legacy Baryta can be problematic on many printers. I used to have the curly papers scratch on Canon and other Epson printers. It seems to me the Epson Hotpress ( hasn’t that been discontinued ? ) is wound very tightly also on rolls.

It seems that most of the 100% cotton papers I use , Legacy Platine , Legacy Fiber, and Moab Entrada natural, are not presenting problems on the 9570. I could live with using sheets on other media if necessary, though that’s kind of a sad situation for tight wound alpha cellulose gloss media that are so popular.

Could you please post this concern on the Epson Wide Format Group? There are more people over there that are concerned about the 9570 for production work. They already had the P10k selling for years before with the same head, right?

https://groups.io/g/EpsonWideFormat

Are you considering asking Epson to exchange the 9570 for a P 9000? Others have resorted to that. I would save all the damaged media and send samples to their superiors, and take pictures and post them over and over online with sending the links to Epson higher ups.

John

There is no fix for this issue as yet. Our 9570 is plagued by this issue on the print side of the sheet, randomly, no matter whether the roll is new or nearing the end. Fortunately it has not happened as YET on sheets. But we purchased this printer to print on rolls - not sheets. We have several flat bed printers for printing on sheets already.

We have had our 9570 for 2 years now and this, above all, is the only persistent issue for which there appears to be no solution as yet. The printer prints beautifully when it works perfectly. But, printing large sheets is ALWAYS a great concern. Sometimes, it takes 3 prints before one perfect print is achieved. We have never had a printer which creates so much wasted ink and paper. The head is simply to damn close to the platen and the techs know this. We have tried maximum platen gap along with maximum paper thickness  - which was 3 times that of the paper on which we were printing, to the extreme detriment of print quality  - to no avail. It has been almost impossible to get a clean print on Hahnemuhle Torchon 285 gsm especially on 36" rolls We got one recently from a 44" roll. That was cause for celebration. I'm not kidding. And of course Epson completely disavowed themselves of any responsibility due to the fact that the paper is a "third party" paper. BUT, when it occurred on Hot press Natural and Legacy Baryta they had no more excuses. Then they sent a Decision One tech along with a package containing major components including head, capping station etc.  Nevertheless, so far after 3 Decision One visits and one new head they have been unable to solve the issue.

During a recent visit by a Decision One tech, I was told by the tech that this is an extremely common issue for which they have yet to find any solution. The tech then added "I hate that machine." Now I understand why they put those lights inside the platen area. It is so we are able to watch every stroke of the print head, watching for the infamous head scrape or whatever it is at which point we can abort the print and mitigate damage.

I am sorry for the bad news. We will not rest until a satisfactory solution is found.

Mick