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Author Topic: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson  (Read 879 times)

fredofarago

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Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« on: November 30, 2021, 03:35:15 pm »

Hello everyone! I thought that some of you might have an opinion about a prolem I have with my brand new CANON imageprograf 4100.

The problem: My matte prints are pale. The blacks look charcoal. SEE PHOTOS for a comparison with my epson p800 vs canon 4100 prints.

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I am an illustrator and a painter. I have been using pro printers for the last 18 years. I always used epson printers ( epson 7800, 9880, p5000, p6000, p800 ). I still own an epson p800 and my aging 9880. I bought the canon 4100 to replace the epson 9880.

I'm used to print on epson papers, mostly: enhanced matte paper, hot press and cold press plus some matte canvas.

When I received my canon printer, I have ordered icc profiles for my epson papers to be used with the canon since the colors and blacks were off straight from the start. The colors are now ok, but the blacks are completely off.

I ordered some canon heavyweight matte coated paper to run a test and see if the icc profiles I ordered were right. Same problem.

I tried numerous other icc profiles to test print and see if anything would improve but no luck for me.


Does anyone of you here have had issues like this before? I can't believe my 12 years old epson 9880 makes better prints thanthis new canon 4100.

See a comparison of a print of one of my artwork both printed on the same epson enhanced matte paper with two different printers.

Thanks in advance for any help or advise!

Fred Jourdain
www.fredjourdain.com

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digitaldog

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2021, 03:39:16 pm »

I ordered some canon heavyweight matte coated paper to run a test and see if the icc profiles I ordered were right. Same problem.
I tried numerous other icc profiles to test print and see if anything would improve but no luck for me.
If you make a document in the same RGB Working Space, Fill with black (0/0/0) use Printer Manages Color (bypassing the profiles), better?
It could just be par for the course with this paper and ink set.
Or it could be a color management issue. We need to determine which is which.
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fredofarago

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2021, 03:44:53 pm »

If you make a document in the same RGB Working Space, Fill with black (0/0/0) use Printer Manages Color (bypassing the profiles), better?
It could just be par for the course with this paper and ink set.
Or it could be a color management issue. We need to determine which is which.

Hi Digitaldog, thanks for you reply!

I tried to bypass the profiles doing what you suggested. Same problem!
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digitaldog

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2021, 03:47:16 pm »

I tried to bypass the profiles doing what you suggested. Same problem!
Well that kind of illustrates, it is what it is. You can try a different paper, maybe that would help. But that's basically the highest density this paper and ink can produce. It isn't the profiles or some color management issue.
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fredofarago

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2021, 03:54:53 pm »

Well that kind of illustrates, it is what it is. You can try a different paper, maybe that would help. But that's basically the highest density this paper and ink can produce. It isn't the profiles or some color management issue.

I printed on canon heavyweight coated matte paper, epson enhanced matte paper, hot press and cold press.... always the same pale and dull blacks.

So canon printers can't print true rich blacks?

This is crazy... I can't believe that my 12 years old epson 9880 can do a deeper d-max than this brand new canon 4100...!
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2021, 04:26:57 pm »

I don't own a Canon imageprograf 4100 but I do have the smaller but excellent Pro-1.

What I found printing on matt papers is that it depends which paper you select in the media selection, as each preset lays down different densities of ink.  I'm not sure how this works with the 4100.

Long story short, I found that Canon's own ‘Premium Fine Art Smooth’ media selection gave the highest ink density.  I use this selection for some matt or fine art papers.

A word of warning however, the paper can get quite wet and may expand or curl enough to get head strikes.  Does the 4100 have a vacuum platen ?

Hope this may help.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2021, 05:05:41 pm »

When I received my canon printer, I have ordered icc profiles for my epson papers to be used with the canon since the colors and blacks were off straight from the start. The colors are now ok, but the blacks are completely off.

This stands out. The printer OEM profiles should be at least usable.  There may be a defect in your printer. What you are seeing is almost like the printer is just always using Photo Black instead of Matte Black on matte paper.

If you attach the custom printer profile to an image and post it as an attachment we can examine it and get an idea of what's going on. Alternately do this in Photoshop:

Create an all black image in any colorspace. Convert the image to the printer profile using Abs. Col. Then convert back to your colorspace also using Abs Col. Now read the image "black" with the info tool selecting Lab for readout.

What's the L* value? Will be well over 20 if the printer wasn't using matte black ink.
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fredofarago

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2021, 07:22:50 pm »

I don't own a Canon imageprograf 4100 but I do have the smaller but excellent Pro-1.

What I found printing on matt papers is that it depends which paper you select in the media selection, as each preset lays down different densities of ink.  I'm not sure how this works with the 4100.

Long story short, I found that Canon's own ‘Premium Fine Art Smooth’ media selection gave the highest ink density.  I use this selection for some matt or fine art papers.

A word of warning however, the paper can get quite wet and may expand or curl enough to get head strikes.  Does the 4100 have a vacuum platen ?

Hope this may help.

Ijust tried it and it does not work, still the same poor blacks. :(
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fredofarago

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2021, 07:26:40 pm »

This stands out. The printer OEM profiles should be at least usable.  There may be a defect in your printer. What you are seeing is almost like the printer is just always using Photo Black instead of Matte Black on matte paper.

If you attach the custom printer profile to an image and post it as an attachment we can examine it and get an idea of what's going on. Alternately do this in Photoshop:

Create an all black image in any colorspace. Convert the image to the printer profile using Abs. Col. Then convert back to your colorspace also using Abs Col. Now read the image "black" with the info tool selecting Lab for readout.

What's the L* value? Will be well over 20 if the printer wasn't using matte black ink.

That's also what I thought ( is the printer only using photo black? ) But the matte black starting cartridges run lower than the photo black, so I guess it's using it.

Would it be possible that the matte black cartridge be filled with the incoret ink in it ?

How can I attach the custom printer profile to an image so I can post it here?

What do you mean by: Abs. Col. ?  ( Is it absolute colimetric Could you explain me how to do this so I can post the image here ? )
Thanks you!
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digitaldog

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2021, 07:40:00 pm »

Absolute Colorimetric is a rendering intent, another option such as Perceptual, Saturation and Relative Colorimetric (it's Cousin if you will). I don't see the point because when you bypass ICC color management, as I suggested, you got “poor” black.
Yes, I suppose it is not impossible it is that one ink cartridge and sure, you could test with a new one. Short of that, or an issue with the printer, this may just be how this printer deals with black.
If you could find another local user with the same printer who could make a print, that would nail it.
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fredofarago

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2021, 07:58:03 pm »

Absolute Colorimetric is a rendering intent, another option such as Perceptual, Saturation and Relative Colorimetric (it's Cousin if you will). I don't see the point because when you bypass ICC color management, as I suggested, you got “poor” black.
Yes, I suppose it is not impossible it is that one ink cartridge and sure, you could test with a new one. Short of that, or an issue with the printer, this may just be how this printer deals with black.
If you could find another local user with the same printer who could make a print, that would nail it.

Thanks, I'm waiting for a new matte black cartridge, I'll wait and see what it does when I switch it.

I also contacted my dealer and they'll make a test print with their own printer to see if the results are the same.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2021, 08:55:44 pm »

That's also what I thought ( is the printer only using photo black? ) But the matte black starting cartridges run lower than the photo black, so I guess it's using it.

Would it be possible that the matte black cartridge be filled with the incoret ink in it ?

How can I attach the custom printer profile to an image so I can post it here?

What do you mean by: Abs. Col. ?  ( Is it absolute colimetric Could you explain me how to do this so I can post the image here ? )
Thanks you!

I provided two options.

1. Just attach the custom profiles you are using for matte paper. Photoshop Edit->Assign Profile
or
2. In Photoshop convert RGB 0,0,0 (black) to the printer profile then convert back to your colorspace (Edit->Convert to Profile). Select the printer profile and Absolute Colorimetic intent then select your working space RGB profile (possibly sRGB but it doesn't actually matter which one). Now, In Photoshop, the Lab value of the image should show what the profile expects black to print.

If you attach the profile to any image (Edit->AssignProfile), even a tiny one, and save it as a jpeg, you can then attach the image when making a post in this forum. It will contain the profile which can be extracted and examined.
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fredofarago

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2021, 09:51:25 pm »

I provided two options.

1. Just attach the custom profiles you are using for matte paper. Photoshop Edit->Assign Profile
or
2. In Photoshop convert RGB 0,0,0 (black) to the printer profile then convert back to your colorspace (Edit->Convert to Profile). Select the printer profile and Absolute Colorimetic intent then select your working space RGB profile (possibly sRGB but it doesn't actually matter which one). Now, In Photoshop, the Lab value of the image should show what the profile expects black to print.

If you attach the profile to any image (Edit->AssignProfile), even a tiny one, and save it as a jpeg, you can then attach the image when making a post in this forum. It will contain the profile which can be extracted and examined.

Thanks for the explanation!

Here is the jpg with the color profile assigned.

Let me know what you think! Thanks a lot!

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Doug Gray

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2021, 10:56:47 pm »

When I received my canon printer, I have ordered icc profiles for my epson papers to be used with the canon since the colors and blacks were off straight from the start. The colors are now ok, but the blacks are completely off.

I may have misunderstood. I presumed you had custom profiles made for the Epson papers to use on your Canon. If they weren't custom profiles then they won't reflect what your printer is doing.

That said, the profile you attached has a black point L* = 16.8. This is not unreasonable for a Matte printer/paper. It appears you are getting prints with a much higher L*, perhaps over 25. If you don't have a spectrophotometer, you can check a black matte print against the darkest patch on a ColorChecker card. That has an L* of 20 and is well controlled. Your print should be slightly darker than that patch.

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Czornyj

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2021, 04:52:44 am »

Looks like you're using wrong printing mode that uses PK instead of MK black ink. Choose right Media Type (like Photo Paper Pro Premium Matte, or Heavyweight Fine Art, or HW Coated) and use standard Canon profile, it will print perfect on any Epson matte coated paper without any problem.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 05:01:32 am by Czornyj »
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fredofarago

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2021, 11:01:24 am »

Looks like you're using wrong printing mode that uses PK instead of MK black ink. Choose right Media Type (like Photo Paper Pro Premium Matte, or Heavyweight Fine Art, or HW Coated) and use standard Canon profile, it will print perfect on any Epson matte coated paper without any problem.

This is the first thing I did.

The selected media n the printer is premium pro matte paper. I then print trough photoshop, I select an icc profile managed by photoshop and then I select canon pro matte paper as a the paper in media.

This is the result I get... Really strange. I really wonder if my matte black cartridges isn't loaded with photo black instead. ( This is the starter cartridge ).
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Czornyj

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2021, 11:50:12 am »

This is the first thing I did.

The selected media n the printer is premium pro matte paper. I then print trough photoshop, I select an icc profile managed by photoshop and then I select canon pro matte paper as a the paper in media.

This is the result I get... Really strange. I really wonder if my matte black cartridges isn't loaded with photo black instead. ( This is the starter cartridge ).

The media selected in the printer are only for information purposes, if you'll choose different media in the driver it will force the printer to use it over the setting on a panel. Use Canon Professional Print & Layout app to make sure you're using proper media type

Doug Gray

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Re: Canon imageprograf 4100 BLACKS problem compared to epson
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2021, 03:50:10 pm »

The media selected in the printer are only for information purposes, if you'll choose different media in the driver it will force the printer to use it over the setting on a panel. Use Canon Professional Print & Layout app to make sure you're using proper media type

Yep. That's the key. OP: You probably aren't selecting the printer driver's matte paper. You can also do this in Photoshop from the print dialog select "Print Settings" in the right Top area labeled "Printer Setup." This will open the driver settings where you can set the paper type etc.
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