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Author Topic: Calibration brightness level  (Read 3123 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2021, 12:06:05 pm »

I do very little in Photoshop, and when I need to do more (retouching for example), it's easy to keep track of things because I don't do it often at all.
OK, fine, actually sounds like a good way to work if you charge by the hour.  :D
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And photos where I have to do retouching, with skintones, are ok in sRGB anyway - stuff is in-gamut.
You know this because you render to a larger color space and plot every image color gamut in 3D then decide to use sRGB?
Of you render in sRGB and just hope or assume nothing is clipped that could be output (on print** or on the web for those with wide gamut displays). Or you simply don't care. That's fine. Some of us do care.
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I only use Adobe RGB when I have to print something as I was saying.
Print to what? You do agree that there are lots and lots of printers who's output color space greatly exceed Adobe RGB (1998), right?
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I think things are moving towards Display P3 to replace sRGB, not Adobe RGB.
The differences in color gamut between DCI-P3 and Adobe RGB (1998) are tiny.
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Yes, it is WYSIWYG, and it's what I use when printing.
You believe that the color gamut of sRGB (or any RGB Working Space) and an printer output color space are even close to matching or allowing a fit?
Do you realize that NO printer can output all of the sRGB gamut? None. I'd be happy to plot 3D any printer color space you can supply, or I'll supply one or more, to show you this fact.
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SpectraView doens't have a Display P3 target for comparison's sake.
You simply need to plug in the aim points (targets for calibration) to get close. I would be happy to show you or better, I can build such a target in SpectraView, upload and you can load it directly for this task.
I don't think it is at all necessary but, your call.
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unless I can have a monitor that does 100% ProPhoto RGB,
That will never happen, never. It is impossible. We can go there if you wish. Again, the very concept of color management and image editing is that the display and the Working Space are divorced by design.
There is no reason why, people who wish to output data they can capture and output but can't fully see on a display cannot do so.
You have an option:
1. Funnel all your image data into a color space you can display while clipping colors you can capture and can output but not do so or...
2. Keep all that color data, edit carefully in a few areas where you could alter color you can't see (but can 'measure' using an info palette) and use that color for output.
Your choice of course. I prefer to keep and use all the color and data I can get.
When I shot professionally, and the job required (at time) 4x5 or 8x10 film, I wouldn't think of shooting that format then cropping down to a medium format size or less. I no more would render into anything but ProPhoto RGB from raw, or do so only in 8-bits per color, or resample the pixels down from the native capture. But that's just me. Well not just me....  :D
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How do ACR/LR use the monitor profile?
Exactly like Photoshop and every other color managed application. Examine the color space of the data (and in LR, that differs depending on the module!). Examine the color space of the display as provided by the display profile. Use Display Using Monitor Compensation as described in the PDF.

** The benefits of wide gamut working spaces on printed output:
This three part, 32 minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print.

Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB, how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affects final output quality. Part 1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better color output. It also covers Photoshop’s Assign Profile command and how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or over saturated colors due to user error.

Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the properly converted Gamut Test File  file in Photoshop using Photoshop’s Print command to correctly setup the test files for output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test files for output to a lab.

Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB.

High Resolution Video: http://digitaldog.net/files/WideGamutPrintVideo.mov
Low Resolution (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs&feature=youtu.be


Still true, but to a lesser degree with Adobe RGB (1998) than sRGB. And again, I've shown how using a smaller color gamut editing space for print produces those 'blobs' of color which again, were plotted in an output color space to a somewhat modern inkjet printer:

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/sRGBvsPro3DPlot_Granger.tif
« Last Edit: November 27, 2021, 12:15:46 pm by digitaldog »
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Doug Gray

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2021, 06:14:31 pm »

Just a comment for anyone with a WCG monitor that wants to visualize if portions of images in ProPhoto RGB are outside Adobe RGB using Photoshop.

1. Go to settings and change color to desaturate 25%. This will desaturate the viewing (but not the RGB values) of all colors in your image but the upside is it effectively increases the monitor's gamut response .

2. Now set a view softproof to Adobe RGB. Click back and forth the checkbox that enables softproof preview.

The areas you see a visible change are outside of Adobe RGB.

You can also do the same selecting a printer profile to visualize colors that are printable in ProPhoto RGB but would normally be clipped to Adobe RGB. If there aren't any differences you can feel comfortable using Adobe RGB colorspace to work your image. Remember to reset the destaturation percentage to 0 before you do any actual work. This is a temporary approach that lets you see if there are any colors outside your monitor's actual gamut. Just do not do actual work in with the desaturated setting.

This technique also works with limited, sRGB monitors.
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digitaldog

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2021, 06:21:37 pm »

Just a comment for anyone with a WCG monitor that wants to visualize if portions of images in ProPhoto RGB are outside Adobe RGB using Photoshop.
I suppose you could also load Adobe RGB (1998) or if on a wide gamut display, your display profile in Customize Proof Setup.
Then turn on the Gamut overlay.
But as many know, I don't trust the Gamut overlay much and have found it buggy.
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Go to settings and change color to desaturate 25%
Why 25%?
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Doug Gray

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2021, 06:56:37 pm »

I suppose you could also load Adobe RGB (1998) or if on a wide gamut display, your display profile in Customize Proof Setup.
Then turn on the Gamut overlay.
But as many know, I don't trust the Gamut overlay much and have found it buggy. Why 25%?

I've found it works well. And it's large enough that you notice it if you forget to reset it when actually doing work.

As for the gamut overlay, it's big problem is that it shows any OOG part of the image. It even shows colors that are at the gamut edge as OOG even though they are actually in gamut but just at the boundary. A visual approach by alternating back on forth with the check box shows anything that would actually matter. If a color is .5 (or .01) dE OOG who cares. And the gamut overlay has to be about 6 dE OOG for printer profiles to kick in. That's not insignificant. That's why I prefer not using it with printer profiles except as a first cut for gross OOG error.
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ghostwind

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2021, 12:32:30 am »

Not sure what's new here - my only question had to do with how ACR/LR handle the monitor profile, which you answered and was my assumption, but just checking. More later below. The rest I've already gone over and exlpained. I'll do it again...

1. As I said, I do 95% of my work in the RAW software/ACR, not PS. The only time I need to work in PS for more "involved" editing is on rare ocassions, like when I have to to some retouching work on portraits (as one example). And yeah, I do charge extra for that. And it has nothing to do with what I did before or what color gamut I used....Not sure what your point is here. And when I do that, I look to see if sRGB is clipping (using the histogram in ACR), what is being clipped, if going to a larger color space will fix it, and if it's significant or not. Often times it's not. Sometimes it is. Simple really.

2. Yes, I know there are printers with larger color gamuts than Adobe RGB. Have we moved on to my printing workflow now? Please no! I said I use the right tool for the job. Sometimes it's using sRGB, sometimes Adobe RGB, etc. I've even used Display P3 when sending stuff to clients using Apple monitors to evalute things. Wowza! Imagine that! Again, my master file is the RAW file with the .xmp. And again, most importantnly, I like to edit colors I can see, and not have some program (PS) change things for me on output after I've made my edits. I explained this at length, and I'm pretty sure you undrestood.

3. The differences in color gamut between DCI-P3 and Adobe RGB are indeed small, but they still exist. So it's worth mentioning. But let's talk about Display P3, not DCI-P3, because the former is relevant to photography, not the latter. And while the color gamut is the same, Display P3 has D65 and 2.2 gamma and it's what most consumers displays are using (Apple, BenQ, etc.). We can talk DCI-P3 vs REC.709 in another thread, when we move on to Premiere and video :)

4. I made the target file and did the calibration for Display P3. See attached. The gamut shows the NEC 271Q's native gamut compared to Adobe RGB (yelllow outline) and DCI/Display-P3 gamut (blue outline). Small, yes, we know. But a lot of what we're discussing here are "small" things. Small but important - depends on the image, the photographer, etc. as to how important something is. Plots, graphs, etc. are objective, but photo editing is a subjective process.

5. I know ProPhoto RGB will never happen on a display, and I DON'T want to go there :) I was just trying to illustrate the point I was making with a WYSIWYG workflow. Yes, I fall in camp #1, as I've explained at length. Yet I also fall into camp #2, because I DO keep all my data, just in a different place than you. C'mon man, that analogy with 4x5 or 8x10 and cropping down is peretty bad, and you know it! I guess I like to edit colors I can see and know that's what my output file will look like. But that's just me. Well not just me.... :)

6. What I was asking, is how does ACR/LR use the monitor profile exaclty, as the workspace is separate from the display. Say my NEC is calibrated for sRGB. When I set/choose my working space in ACR it's still using the monitor profile no when rendering? If I choose Adobe RGB or Display P3 things shoudn't change right, as things are still confined to sRGB. Maybe some remapping for out-of-gamut colors, that's all.
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ghostwind

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2021, 12:33:32 am »

Missed attachment.
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ghostwind

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2021, 12:35:12 am »

Just a comment for anyone with a WCG monitor that wants to visualize if portions of images in ProPhoto RGB are outside Adobe RGB using Photoshop.

1. Go to settings and change color to desaturate 25%. This will desaturate the viewing (but not the RGB values) of all colors in your image but the upside is it effectively increases the monitor's gamut response .

2. Now set a view softproof to Adobe RGB. Click back and forth the checkbox that enables softproof preview.

The areas you see a visible change are outside of Adobe RGB.

You can also do the same selecting a printer profile to visualize colors that are printable in ProPhoto RGB but would normally be clipped to Adobe RGB. If there aren't any differences you can feel comfortable using Adobe RGB colorspace to work your image. Remember to reset the destaturation percentage to 0 before you do any actual work. This is a temporary approach that lets you see if there are any colors outside your monitor's actual gamut. Just do not do actual work in with the desaturated setting.

This technique also works with limited, sRGB monitors.

This is cool, but all my color editing is done outside of PS.
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digitaldog

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2021, 01:57:59 am »

Not sure what's new here - my only question had to do with how ACR/LR handle the monitor profile, which you answered and was my assumption, but just checking.
What's new, besides my answer to your question is a follow up to your own text of which I quoted.
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And it has nothing to do with what I did before or what color gamut I used.
You told us:
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And photos where I have to do retouching, with skintones, are ok in sRGB anyway - stuff is in-gamut.
And I asked, but you didn't answer, how do you know what's in gamut or not from your raw to any color space, you render directly to sRGB. Can you answer that?
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I look to see if sRGB is clipping (using the histogram in ACR), what is being clipped
Doesn't work at all in LR and doesn't work in ACR: Open a Macbeth ColorChecker from raw, set workflow options to sRGB: no clipping shown yet Cyan falls outside sRGB gamut. See below.
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Yes, I know there are printers with larger color gamuts than Adobe RGB. Have we moved on to my printing workflow now?
You brought up your printing! Again, your own text:
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I only use Adobe RGB when I have to print something as I was saying.
Moving on, you tell us you must work in sRGB to see all your colors, then you tell us no, you have a wide gamut display:
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And again, most importantnly, I like to edit colors I can see
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The differences in color gamut between DCI-P3 and Adobe RGB are indeed small, but they still exist.
And the exact differences can be seen below. When I say tiny, I can of course provide an exact number value. Adobe RGB (1998) vs DCI-P3: 1,207,309 vs 1.232.090: pretty tiny!
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But let's talk about Display P3, not DCI-P3, because the former is relevant to photography, not the latter.
We, no, I am, in terms of color gamut; see your own screen captures then my gamut volumes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCI-P3
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I made the target file and did the calibration for Display P3. See attached. The gamut shows the NEC 271Q's native gamut compared to Adobe RGB (yelllow outline) and DCI/Display-P3 gamut (blue outline). Small, yes, we know. But a lot of what we're discussing here are "small" things.
I define small numerically, without generalization and using colorimetry. Again, see below.
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I know ProPhoto RGB will never happen on a display, and I DON'T want to go there
Yet you state prior to this statement:
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unless I can have a monitor that does 100% ProPhoto RGB,
You can't. I don't know based on your 'unless' comment why you now tell us you know you can't have it and don't go there. Fine.
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C'mon man, that analogy with 4x5 or 8x10 and cropping down is peretty bad, and you know it!
I know that statement is an assumption of what I know.
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What I was asking, is how does ACR/LR use the monitor profile exaclty, as the workspace is separate from the display.
And I told you. Just like all other ICC color managed applications.
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digitaldog

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2021, 01:58:30 am »

This is cool, but all my color editing is done outside of PS.
I believe Doug (and certainly I) do not believe you are the only audience here looking to better understand color management.  ;)
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Czornyj

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2021, 08:40:27 am »

I guess I like to edit colors I can see and know that's what my output file will look like. But that's just me. Well not just me.... :)

You need tonal information to edit colors you can see, and you simply clip it and loose it by converting to sRGB editing space.

Alan Klein

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2021, 09:42:35 am »

Not sure what's new here - my only question had to do with how ACR/LR handle the monitor profile, which you answered and was my assumption, but just checking. More later below. The rest I've already gone over and exlpained. I'll do it again...

1. As I said, I do 95% of my work in the RAW software/ACR, not PS. The only time I need to work in PS for more "involved" editing is on rare ocassions, like when I have to to some retouching work on portraits (as one example). And yeah, I do charge extra for that. And it has nothing to do with what I did before or what color gamut I used....Not sure what your point is here. And when I do that, I look to see if sRGB is clipping (using the histogram in ACR), what is being clipped, if going to a larger color space will fix it, and if it's significant or not. Often times it's not. Sometimes it is. Simple really.

2. Yes, I know there are printers with larger color gamuts than Adobe RGB. Have we moved on to my printing workflow now? Please no! I said I use the right tool for the job. Sometimes it's using sRGB, sometimes Adobe RGB, etc. I've even used Display P3 when sending stuff to clients using Apple monitors to evalute things. Wowza! Imagine that! Again, my master file is the RAW file with the .xmp. And again, most importantnly, I like to edit colors I can see, and not have some program (PS) change things for me on output after I've made my edits. I explained this at length, and I'm pretty sure you undrestood.

3. The differences in color gamut between DCI-P3 and Adobe RGB are indeed small, but they still exist. So it's worth mentioning. But let's talk about Display P3, not DCI-P3, because the former is relevant to photography, not the latter. And while the color gamut is the same, Display P3 has D65 and 2.2 gamma and it's what most consumers displays are using (Apple, BenQ, etc.). We can talk DCI-P3 vs REC.709 in another thread, when we move on to Premiere and video :)

4. I made the target file and did the calibration for Display P3. See attached. The gamut shows the NEC 271Q's native gamut compared to Adobe RGB (yelllow outline) and DCI/Display-P3 gamut (blue outline). Small, yes, we know. But a lot of what we're discussing here are "small" things. Small but important - depends on the image, the photographer, etc. as to how important something is. Plots, graphs, etc. are objective, but photo editing is a subjective process.

5. I know ProPhoto RGB will never happen on a display, and I DON'T want to go there :) I was just trying to illustrate the point I was making with a WYSIWYG workflow. Yes, I fall in camp #1, as I've explained at length. Yet I also fall into camp #2, because I DO keep all my data, just in a different place than you. C'mon man, that analogy with 4x5 or 8x10 and cropping down is peretty bad, and you know it! I guess I like to edit colors I can see and know that's what my output file will look like. But that's just me. Well not just me.... :)

6. What I was asking, is how does ACR/LR use the monitor profile exaclty, as the workspace is separate from the display. Say my NEC is calibrated for sRGB. When I set/choose my working space in ACR it's still using the monitor profile no when rendering? If I choose Adobe RGB or Display P3 things shoudn't change right, as things are still confined to sRGB. Maybe some remapping for out-of-gamut colors, that's all.
My theory is if it works for you, don't fix it. 

I have a question about video that I thought you could answer.   I use Premiere Elements to create slide shows.  I use the same settings on my NEC as I do when editing stills that are then incorporated into the video.   I use Lightroom with a high cd setting of 200+. I'll adjust in Lightroom with sRGB and then create the video in Premiere Elements with no change to the monitor settings.  Brightness and sRGB stay the same.   Is that OK?  What concerns are there?

Here are some videos I posted on Youtube.    The Regency Muscle Car is the most recent posted and used a more modern digital camera, so I would suggest that one.  The Fire Academy was with a cell phone and the BW was scanned film. Do the colors and brightness seem OK to you?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGsByP1B3q1EG68f4Yr2AhQ

digitaldog

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2021, 10:00:57 am »

My theory is if it works for you, don't fix it. 
My theory is ignorance is bliss
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ghostwind

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2021, 10:03:56 am »

I believe Doug (and certainly I) do not believe you are the only audience here looking to better understand color management.  ;)

Trust me, I have learned nothing new in this thread from you. I'm understanding things just fine. You like to make this out to be some complicated science, but it really isn't. The goal of an expert in any field is to be able to explain things in a simple way to those thay may not understand. You do the opposite. I think you just like to feel important here, but aren't really helping. So think about that, and less about my workflow which is fine and "interesting". Once again, there is nothing new in your reply, just more quotes where you get confused with what I say, even though what I've said is the same and pretty clear. Or just small things where you love to display your knowledge, but really meaningless (like the numerical volumetric difference between DCI/Display P3 and Adobe RGB - the number is not the point, the area of colors that they cover is, and please call it Display P3 not DCI-P3 - I don't need Wikipedia links, see my last point on it again, and read more carefully). So I'll let it be, you can have the last word (which is what you want), and so on. You can tell me how I don't understand CM or whatever you want. You are the MAN! I'm sure you have a theory for everything. My theory is you are bored and need to feel important. I have actual work to get to, so best of luck in your conquest to try to intimidate people to make yourself feel superior, instead of helping them. Speaks volumes.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2021, 10:07:25 am by ghostwind »
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digitaldog

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Re: Calibration brightness level
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2021, 11:13:47 am »

I believe Doug (and certainly I) do not believe you are the only audience here looking to better understand color management.  ;)

Trust me, I have learned nothing new in this thread from you. I'm understanding things just fine.
Trust me, you are not the OP or the only member reading the conversation here.
I have actual work to get to, so best of luck in your conquest to try to intimidate people to make yourself feel superior, instead of helping them. Speaks volumes.
What is that work? I asked once and your inability to answer simple questions speak volumes:
Your profession is what sir? With a total lack of transparency, it is impossible to know but you can tell us.
Mine is totally transparent.
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