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Author Topic: Phase One XT Rodenstock 23mm f/5.6 in-depth review  (Read 1515 times)

Vieri Bottazzini

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Phase One XT Rodenstock 23mm f/5.6 in-depth review
« on: July 03, 2021, 07:06:25 am »

Hello everyone, I finally completed my first of a series of in-depth reviews dedicated to Rodenstock lenses, in particular used in X-Shutter and on a Phase One XT. The first instalment will analyse the Rodenstock 23mm f/5.6, the widest lens for full-frame medium format.

While lacking the convenience of autofocus, weather sealing and other features that we are used to take for granted these days, tech camera lenses such the XT Rodenstock 23mm f/5.6 are a feat of optical engineering: are they perfect? Nothing is, but they definitely offer something unique.

You can find the whole review here, if interested: https://www.vieribottazzini.com/2021/07/xt-rodenstock-23mm-f-5-6-in-depth-review.html

Looking forward to your comments! Best regards,

Vieri
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One XT Rodenstock 23mm f/5.6 in-depth review
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2021, 09:53:24 pm »

Thank you for posting a link to your review. Your articles are always informative and interesting to read.

For those that would like to access additional lens technical data, including MTF charts, it is available from Rodenstock. The MTF data from Rodenstock aligns, as expected, with your image samples.

As noted in the data from Rodenstock, the 23mm HR Digaron-S has a 70 mm image circle diameter at an image scale of 1:∞. This naturally limits the shift range with a 53.4 x 40 mm sensor having a diagonal of 66.7 mm. Of course as you focus closer and increase image magnification, the diameter of the image circle will also increase in proportion as will the amount of available shift. If you should write any additional followup to your article, it might be of interest to make note of the additional shift range gained at close focusing distances.

One bit of information that I haven't been able to find in the specification data is the maximum magnification ratio for any of the XT mounted lenses or their minimum focusing distance. I'm assuming that it is similar to other focusing mounts for this lens which have about a 0.25 m minimum focusing distance or about a 1:10 magnification ratio. This should give you a larger image circle with a bit more room for shifts.

While Rodenstock (and Phase One) specify the lens image angle as 112° for the 70 mm image circle diagonal, the angle of view for a sensor diagonal that is 66.7 mm is a few degrees smaller (closer to 109°).  A very minor point that is likely of interest to few beside myself.
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: Phase One XT Rodenstock 23mm f/5.6 in-depth review
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2021, 03:33:23 am »

Thank you for posting a link to your review. Your articles are always informative and interesting to read.

For those that would like to access additional lens technical data, including MTF charts, it is available from Rodenstock. The MTF data from Rodenstock aligns, as expected, with your image samples.

As noted in the data from Rodenstock, the 23mm HR Digaron-S has a 70 mm image circle diameter at an image scale of 1:∞. This naturally limits the shift range with a 53.4 x 40 mm sensor having a diagonal of 66.7 mm. Of course as you focus closer and increase image magnification, the diameter of the image circle will also increase in proportion as will the amount of available shift. If you should write any additional followup to your article, it might be of interest to make note of the additional shift range gained at close focusing distances.

One bit of information that I haven't been able to find in the specification data is the maximum magnification ratio for any of the XT mounted lenses or their minimum focusing distance. I'm assuming that it is similar to other focusing mounts for this lens which have about a 0.25 m minimum focusing distance or about a 1:10 magnification ratio. This should give you a larger image circle with a bit more room for shifts.

While Rodenstock (and Phase One) specify the lens image angle as 112° for the 70 mm image circle diagonal, the angle of view for a sensor diagonal that is 66.7 mm is a few degrees smaller (closer to 109°).  A very minor point that is likely of interest to few beside myself.

Hey there,

thank you for your kind words, I am glad you enjoyed the article. Thank you as well for your inputs, much appreciated. I added a link to Rodenstock MFT charts, I have been remiss in not doing so already and I thank you for the reminder. I also added notes regarding the angle of view, which of course is slightly smaller when applied to the smaller diagonal of the sensor rather than to the full image circle - as you mentioned perhaps it will be of interest to few, but for the sake of precision I believe it's worth mentioning - and about angle of view being larger with the lens focussed close.

Thanks again! Have a great day, best regards

Vieri
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TechTalk

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Re: Phase One XT Rodenstock 23mm f/5.6 in-depth review
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2021, 07:55:57 am »

...as you mentioned perhaps it will be of interest to few, but for the sake of precision I believe it's worth mentioning - and about angle of view being larger with the lens focussed close.

Just to be clear, it's the image circle which increases in diameter (becomes larger) as you focus closer and not the angle of view. The increase in image circle diameter at closer focus distances would be true of any lens like the current Phase One XT lenses which have a low-tech focusing system that simply moves the entire lens assembly forward and backward and as a result the spacing between lens elements and groups never change. It's the inverse square law at work projecting an increasingly larger cone of light as the distance between the lens and image plane increases with closer subject distance. With a more complex lens design having floating lens elements or a change in spacing of lens groups as you focus, the relationship becomes less straightforward.   

Again, thanks for the interesting article and for providing in it some of the specifications and lens data which I don't see published by Phase One. Perhaps it's just me that's frustrated by the lack of lens data from manufacturers and distributors.

Few manufacturers offer a reasonably complete set of lens data and it requires you to go hunting it down across the internet, if you can find it there. The specifications provided by Phase One are minimal at best. On their web page you get "angle of view" and the nominal focal length (23 mm), but not the actual lens design focal length standard for which the the lenses are produced which is 23.82 mm per Alpa. If you click on "Download Technical Specs Sheet" you can then find the image circle diameter. No information is given for what the actual "angle of view" is relative to sensor size. For focusing the only specification is "ultra fine manual focus", but no information on how close you can focus or maximum image scale.

Rodenstock, Alpa, and Sinar have identical minimum focus specifications for each of the HR lenses (0.25 m for the HR 23 mm). I don't know, but I would not be surprised if they all share the same focusing mount offered by Rodenstock rather than reinvent a wheel (or focusing mount) that already exists. Cambo Rodenstock X-Shutter lenses have slightly different minimum focus specs from the other three mentioned, some shorter and some longer. I have no idea what the minimum focus distance is for any of the Phase One XT lenses and I've searched pretty extensively. None of the Rodenstock HR distributors appear to give the lens entrance pupil which would be helpful to know, if you do panoramas, for determining positioning and to find the right shift plate length for a given lens.

By piecing together lens data from Rodenstock, Alpa, Sinar, Cambo, and Horseman—which sell Rodenstock HR Digaron lenses in focusing mounts—you can get a more complete set of specifications to assess the capabilities and the limitations. Rodenstock provides MTF data and other optical specifications, including shift range for various sensor sizes. Alpa provides accurate focal length data which they refer to as "effective focal length". Sinar gives recommendations for minimum, maximum, and optimum scales of reproduction which produce a minimum resolution specification. Horseman states that the HR 23 mm is 15 Elements in 11 Groups.

If you have a precise focal length and sensor size, you can accurately calculate things like angle of view; field of view; and image/reproduction scale (magnification at a given distance). There are handy online calculators like this which will do the math for you. The results are very precise at infinity and long distances. They are generally fairly accurate approximations at closer distances, depending on specific lens design and image scale. If you want to know the data for a specific image circle diagonal rather than a sensor size, you can enter a sensor size of: 42 x 56 mm for a 70 mm diagonal image circle; 54 x 72 mm for a 90 mm diagonal image circle; 60 x 80 mm for a 100 mm diagonal image circle; or 72 x 96 mm for a 120 mm diagonal image circle. You can then compare angle of view for various sensor sizes relative to image circle.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 08:12:52 am by TechTalk »
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: Phase One XT Rodenstock 23mm f/5.6 in-depth review
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2021, 12:03:02 pm »

Just to be clear, it's the image circle which increases in diameter (becomes larger) as you focus closer and not the angle of view. The increase in image circle diameter at closer focus distances would be true of any lens like the current Phase One XT lenses which have a low-tech focusing system that simply moves the entire lens assembly forward and backward and as a result the spacing between lens elements and groups never change. It's the inverse square law at work projecting an increasingly larger cone of light as the distance between the lens and image plane increases with closer subject distance. With a more complex lens design having floating lens elements or a change in spacing of lens groups as you focus, the relationship becomes less straightforward.   

Again, thanks for the interesting article and for providing in it some of the specifications and lens data which I don't see published by Phase One. Perhaps it's just me that's frustrated by the lack of lens data from manufacturers and distributors.

Few manufacturers offer a reasonably complete set of lens data and it requires you to go hunting it down across the internet, if you can find it there. The specifications provided by Phase One are minimal at best. On their web page you get "angle of view" and the nominal focal length (23 mm), but not the actual lens design focal length standard for which the the lenses are produced which is 23.82 mm per Alpa. If you click on "Download Technical Specs Sheet" you can then find the image circle diameter. No information is given for what the actual "angle of view" is relative to sensor size. For focusing the only specification is "ultra fine manual focus", but no information on how close you can focus or maximum image scale.

Rodenstock, Alpa, and Sinar have identical minimum focus specifications for each of the HR lenses (0.25 m for the HR 23 mm). I don't know, but I would not be surprised if they all share the same focusing mount offered by Rodenstock rather than reinvent a wheel (or focusing mount) that already exists. Cambo Rodenstock X-Shutter lenses have slightly different minimum focus specs from the other three mentioned, some shorter and some longer. I have no idea what the minimum focus distance is for any of the Phase One XT lenses and I've searched pretty extensively. None of the Rodenstock HR distributors appear to give the lens entrance pupil which would be helpful to know, if you do panoramas, for determining positioning and to find the right shift plate length for a given lens.

By piecing together lens data from Rodenstock, Alpa, Sinar, Cambo, and Horseman—which sell Rodenstock HR Digaron lenses in focusing mounts—you can get a more complete set of specifications to assess the capabilities and the limitations. Rodenstock provides MTF data and other optical specifications, including shift range for various sensor sizes. Alpa provides accurate focal length data which they refer to as "effective focal length". Sinar gives recommendations for minimum, maximum, and optimum scales of reproduction which produce a minimum resolution specification. Horseman states that the HR 23 mm is 15 Elements in 11 Groups.

If you have a precise focal length and sensor size, you can accurately calculate things like angle of view; field of view; and image/reproduction scale (magnification at a given distance). There are handy online calculators like this which will do the math for you. The results are very precise at infinity and long distances. They are generally fairly accurate approximations at closer distances, depending on specific lens design and image scale. If you want to know the data for a specific image circle diagonal rather than a sensor size, you can enter a sensor size of: 42 x 56 mm for a 70 mm diagonal image circle; 54 x 72 mm for a 90 mm diagonal image circle; 60 x 80 mm for a 100 mm diagonal image circle; or 72 x 96 mm for a 120 mm diagonal image circle. You can then compare angle of view for various sensor sizes relative to image circle.

Thank you very much for your comment and for sharing your knowledge, much appreciated. I am going to amend the reviews adding real focal length and minimum focal distances for all lenses, together with the information already there. Hope this helps!

Best regards,

Vieri
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https://linktr.ee/vieribottazzini
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