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Author Topic: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?  (Read 6278 times)

mlondon

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32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« on: June 14, 2021, 10:41:50 am »

It's time to upgrade my venerable NEC PA302W.
Great monitor, but after using an LG 5k for all non-photo work, its really hard to go back to the 2560x1600 resolution of the NEC.
Using Lightroom Classic for my library, and edit in LR, PS, DxO PhotoLab, etc.
Images are currently 46MP from a Z7II, but looking forward to whatever the Z9 may have in store...

Seems that as of mid-2021 my choices are:
•EIZO ColorEdge CG319X ~$5,700
•NEC MultiSync PA311D  ~$3,100
and, much to my surprise
•ASUS ProArt Display PA32UCX-PK ~$4,400

I'm sure that some of you will suggest to look no further than the EIZO, but I'll also be upgrading my computer to a new Apple M1(M2?) 16" MacBookPro as soon as it is released, and according to EIZO's website their monitors are not yet fully functional with the M1.

Is the EIZO that much better than the NEC?
How about the ASUS? It looks to be a highly color accurate monitor with a bit more modern design than EIZO/NEC and has USB-C/Thunderbolt ports.

I should add that I'm NOT printing for exhibitions as I prefer to leave that level of work for my lab.

Grateful for any and all suggestions and guidance...
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Czornyj

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2021, 12:42:22 pm »

I'm using PA311D with Mac mini M1 and both are just awesome as it gets. PA311D is basically identical to EIZO CG319x - it has same Panasonic W-LED PFS IPS panel which is the best I've seen in desktop SDR display, 14(16bit) 3DULT, uniformity compensation, autocalibration with internal sensors and SpectraView engine that recalibrate the display every second. Right now NEC MultiProfiler software doesn't work with M1 yet, but there's SpectraView II M1 version and MultiProfiler should be soon working. I'd buy it as fast as possible without hesitation, because it's discontinued and soon will not be available.
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mlondon

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2021, 01:25:58 pm »

Quote
I'd buy it as fast as possible without hesitation, because it's discontinued and soon will not be available.

I'm sorry, what is discontinued? The PA311D?
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BAB

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2021, 05:50:52 pm »

Venerable NEC PA302W.  upgrade?????  I just bought another one from NEC new in box White color for 1100.00 my first one has been flawless so I bought another...however I produce fine art not commercial fashion or copy work so I wouldn't think one would need the Ezio for other than that?
My H6D will communicate with the Ezio workflow but I can't see why I would need that either.

HMM! What do I do with the 4k I saved maybe buy some more tesla stock?
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marvpelkey

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2021, 07:21:53 pm »

No comments of any value to contribute on the monitor search,

but just wanted to say, if the images that scroll across your website are any indication of the content of the book, it should be a quality product. Very nice, very well lit images.

Marv
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Czornyj

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2021, 02:06:01 am »

I'm sorry, what is discontinued? The PA311D?

Yes, PA311D
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mlondon

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2021, 11:13:15 am »

Yes, PA311D

Where do you see that the PA311D is discontinued?
It shows as a current model on NEC's website: https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/products/displays/pa311d-bk
And for sale (as special order) at B&H.

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mlondon

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2021, 11:15:38 am »

Venerable NEC PA302W.  upgrade?????  I just bought another one from NEC new in box White color for 1100.00 my first one has been flawless so I bought another...however I produce fine art not commercial fashion or copy work so I wouldn't think one would need the Ezio for other than that?
My H6D will communicate with the Ezio workflow but I can't see why I would need that either.

Yes, venerable. But my eyes have been totally spoiled by the LG 5K monitor so now everything looks fuzzy on the PA302 :-(
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mlondon

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2021, 11:18:53 am »


but just wanted to say, if the images that scroll across your website are any indication of the content of the book, it should be a quality product. Very nice, very well lit images.

Thank you Marv, that is very kind of you.
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Daverich

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2021, 03:52:06 pm »

Yes, PA311D

I just ordered one from B&H with a one to two week delivery.
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Daverich

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2021, 03:20:14 pm »

Yes, PA311D

Mine was back ordered for 6 weeks from B&H but just got here today. Beautiful monitor, calibrating it as I write.
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Czornyj

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2021, 12:58:23 pm »

Mine was back ordered for 6 weeks from B&H but just got here today. Beautiful monitor, calibrating it as I write.

Factory calibration of PA311D is more accurate than calibration with SVII and i1Display Pro ;) It's calibrated with a couple of lab-grade Konica-Minoltas (worth well over 100k$), and internal SpectraView Engine + RGB & temperature sensors are calibrating it continuously every second
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Daverich

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2021, 01:10:32 pm »

Factory calibration of PA311D is more accurate than calibration with SVII and i1Display Pro ;) It's calibrated with a couple of lab-grade Konica-Minoltas (worth well over 100k$), and internal SpectraView Engine + RGB & temperature sensors are calibrating it continuously every second

You seem to be suggesting that I shouldn’t calibrate it myself? How would I use the color temperature and brightness to match my viewing station if I don’t?
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digitaldog

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2021, 01:59:11 pm »

You seem to be suggesting that I shouldn’t calibrate it myself? How would I use the color temperature and brightness to match my viewing station if I don’t?
If such a factory calibration doesn't match the soft proof to the viewing station, you'll want to alter with custom calibration of course. And of course, you can build or use as many calibration targets for differing needs and uses, switch on the fly as needed.
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TechTalk

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2021, 12:44:20 pm »

PA311D is basically identical to EIZO CG319x - it has same Panasonic W-LED PFS IPS panel which is the best I've seen in desktop SDR display, 14(16bit) 3DULT

I have no desire to dampen your enthusiasm for NEC monitors. They're excellent and I'm using an NEC wide-gamut display right now to type this. I own a couple of them and have also been a user of Eizo displays for several years as well, along with a variety of high-end CRT displays prior. While NEC and Eizo share many similarities in their current comparable models, they are not identical in circuitry, features, and specifications.

One difference you have pointed toward. The NEC uses a 14-bit 3D programmable LUT. The Eizo uses a 24-bit 3D programmable LUT. This is one of several differences in circuitry, features, and specifications.

...autocalibration with internal sensors and SpectraView engine that recalibrate the display every second.

While both NEC and Eizo have internal sensors and estimation algorithms to stabilize display output, this is not the same as calibration or recalibration of a display in the conventional meaning of those terms.

I'd buy it as fast as possible without hesitation, because it's discontinued and soon will not be available.

There's no indication from NEC of this model being discontinued that I can find. Can you point us toward information that confirms your assertion?
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digitaldog

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2021, 01:03:59 pm »

One difference you have pointed toward. The NEC uses a 14-bit 3D programmable LUT. The Eizo uses a 24-bit 3D programmable LUT. This is one of several differences in circuitry, features, and specifications.
Begging the question; how many bits do we really need here?
Do I want or recommend a 6-bit (or even 8-bit) display? No, I prefer a fully high bit video path including of course the display. 24-bit 3D programmable LUTs? What are we supposed to see of that compared to a lowly 12-bit display?
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TechTalk

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2021, 02:32:41 pm »

All excellent questions as usual. How do internal high bit-depth or 3D lookup tables affect the precision of displayed color gradation and gray scale neutrality and why do manufacturers like NEC and Eizo use them in engineering their displays? Perhaps someone here has answers to which someone who is not an electrical engineer can relate.
 
In any event, I was only addressing the statement that the "PA311D is basically identical to EIZO CG319x" and the inclusion in that statement of the NEC 3DLUT specification which is not "basically identical". While the two models share a great many similarities, they are definitely not identical in any sense of the word, basic or otherwise.

Stay well sir. We need your presence here to challenge assumptions!
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digitaldog

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2021, 02:41:35 pm »

All excellent questions as usual. How do internal high bit-depth or 3D lookup tables affect the precision of displayed color gradation and gray scale neutrality and why do manufacturers like NEC and Eizo use them in engineering their displays? Perhaps someone here has answers to which someone who is not an electrical engineer can relate.
What I know (I think I know) is that at some point, lower bit depth panels will show banding when none exists in the data. Now this isn't a big deal IMHO. Yet, when viewing a gradient in high bit, designed to show banding in such cases** it is useful and maybe fun to see if you have a high bit video path (including display) that shows it utterly smooth. As it should be.
I can see that on a 10-bit display when the rest of the display path (video card, OS, app) support this. It's as smooth as it should be when viewed at 100%.
I see no difference if I substitute a 12/14 bit display.
24 bits? Seems like nothing more than marketing BS. Like when the companies with high bit anything tell us "we product billons of colors". No, they produce billions of possible color numbers. We can't see billions of colors. I've never seen any reasonable color expert say we can even see 16.7 million colors. A number that only comes about due to encoding and math.
I think Eizo is using this 24-bit stuff as nothing more than marketing speak but, I'm willing to be shown otherwise. 
Oh, so they have a 24-bit display, where do we find 24-bit per color data to view?  ;D

** https://www.dropbox.com/s/s14f4w7dq85r7oo/10-bit-test-ramp.zip?dl=0
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Czornyj

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2021, 04:51:38 am »

In any event, I was only addressing the statement that the "PA311D is basically identical to EIZO CG319x" and the inclusion in that statement of the NEC 3DLUT specification which is not "basically identical". While the two models share a great many similarities, they are definitely not identical in any sense of the word, basic or otherwise

When you put one next to the other they look identical to the eye and measurement devices. 24 bit 3D LUT might maybe make a very small difference in a real HDR display like CG3145 Prominence, but there's no mathematical chance it could make a perceivable difference in SDR, so there's no difference between them in a real world.
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TechTalk

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Re: 32" 4k Monitor for Photo Editing - EIZO? NEC? ASUS?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2021, 05:16:54 am »

When you "put one next to the other", they may "look identical" to your eyes. Who's to say how they look to someone else? We each have individual vision sensitivities. As for producing identical measurements, I'm not convinced by rhetoric.

Let's look at measurements from both. The NEC MultiSync PA311D and Eizo ColorEdge CG319X were both measured and tested by prad.de.

Let's start with Full Native Gamut and with the factory calibration, as you believe that "is more accurate than calibration" by the user with a colorimeter. By the way, I've seen the comment on another forum which refers to them as "cheap, toy-colorimeters". I disagree with that characterization, as I do with the some of the other assertions being made here.

At full gamut, PRAD measures Delta C which shows chroma/saturation errors. Delta C error is perhaps more noticeable as color shift in neutral values, particularly shadows. Here is the Full Native Gamut using each monitor's factory calibration showing the Delta C and Gamma results (6500 K, 2.2 Gamma, 140-160 cd/m2) for the NEC PA311D and the Eizo CG319X. You can place the linked charts one below the other and see that their both very good with the Eizo only slightly better. Keep an eye on the Delta C numbers as we go along, as a theme will develop.

Since we may be working in a specific color space, let's look at the factory calibrations for Adobe RGB and how well they transform from their native color gamut. Here is the NEC PA311D result and the Eizo CG319X. Both produce outstanding Delta E results hovering at or below dE 0.5, an imperceptible difference. The Delta C results are nearly identical for the Eizo in both Native and Adobe RGB. While the NEC Delta C error range has started to creep up a bit, overall it's about the same as in Native gamut.

Since many professionals and consumers have incorporated motion/video into their work, lets look at DCI-P3 and its 2.6 Gamma with the results from their factory calibrations. Here's the NEC PA311D and the Eizo CG319X. Here we see some major differences in both Delta E and Delta C results.

What I really find interesting is that regardless of the color space chosen, the Eizo produces extremely consistent and very neutral Chroma/Delta C values. For the three examples linked above (Native, Adobe RGB, DCI-P3), the largest Chroma error (Delta C) is just 1.1 and that's only in the lowest shadow value. The average error only moves from 0.3 (Native & Adobe RGB) to 0.5 in DCI-P3 mode and the error range from 0.7 (Native & Adobe RGB) to 0.8 in DCI-P3. For comparison, the NEC has a Chroma/Delta C maximum error from 1.6 to 2.4 and an error range from 1.1 (Native), 1.5 (Adobe RGB), to 1.9 (DCI-P3). If you read thru the full review, it seems persistently higher and more variable.

It's almost as if Eizo is obsessed with neutral gray tones and precise Gamma control. Perhaps that extra internal processing bit-depth isn't all just wasted. Since I left out sRGB with its non-linear gamma, here it is for the NEC and the Eizo.

Since you're convinced that you can't improve on the NEC factory calibration accuracy with "cheap, toy-colorimeters" and this reply is long enough already, I'll leave it to readers whether they want to compare the calibrated test measurements which are also included in the full PRAD tests linked at the top. I will suggest to others that it would be worthwhile to consider calibrating and comparing to the factory defaults. While calibration of the NEC in the DCI-P3 color space did improve the color accuracy compared to its factory calibration, it still can't quite tame the Chroma Delta C results when compared to the Eizo.

One other difference between these two monitors that may make a difference to a very small minority of users is the method for controlling brightness. NEC uses Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) for the backlight LEDs which in essence means that it is continually flashing the LEDs on and off at a very high frequency which is reduced in frequency (more potential "flicker") as brightness is lowered. A graph of the NEC backlight looks like this at 140 cd/m2. Eizo uses continuous LEDs regardless of brightness level and looks like this. Like I said, PWM backlight flicker affects a very small minority of users. For those few who are, for various reasons, sensitive to this type of backlight, it can literally be a pain and a consideration.

There are many other differences in design, build, circuitry, features, software, and what's included. I think that's obvious to anyone that bothers to look. That's more than enough for now.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 07:08:20 am by TechTalk »
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