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Author Topic: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review  (Read 4463 times)

John Nollendorfs

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2021, 04:14:08 pm »

So why did Ansel Adams carry around an 8x10 view camera and film holders in the countryside? The GFX is much handier! Just say'n.
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Dan Wells

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2021, 07:57:57 pm »

If I can get an X-T4 out of Fujifilm at the same time (and I'm trying), there's a really interesting "three sizes of the same sensor comparison". I also have an A7r IV. All three use the same sensor generation, the same pixel pitch and, in fact, the same pixel structure. They're really the same sensor (or as close as you can get) in three different sizes. They unfortunately use three different sets of color filtration,and the X-T4 has a higher rated base ISO, although there's quite a bit of talk that it may be oddly rated, and closer than one might think to ISO 100 on a Sony. I don't know if the GFX is more similar to its Fujifilm stablemate or to the Sony (which is generally thought to be pretty accurate in terms of ISO.

 It's actually rare to come up with such similar sensors in a range of sizes - the 24 MP APS-C sensors aren't related to any full-frame or medium format sensors, and the 24 MP FF sensors are much lower pixel density than just about anything else. They aren't actually related to the 50 MP medium format sensor (they're slightly less dense, and a different design) The 42 MP Sony and 46 MP Nikon FF sensors seem at first glance like they might be related to 24 MP APS-C sensors, but they don't turn out to be. This trio is, in fact, the closest set of relatives in a long time (if not ever)...

There is one possible addition to the comparison that I won't be able to come up with at the same time - the $50,000 Phase One IQ4 150. It's the largest version of that same basic sensor  I don't know if I might be able to come up with one somehow for a few days at one point or another, but almost certainly not while the two Fujis are here.

The Sony, of course, has different processing (minimized, but not eliminated by shooting Raw), and the X-T4 is X-Trans (again, a variable that is hard to eliminate). To add further complication, the GFX is a slightly different aspect ratio...

24x36" prints of the same or similar scene from the three cameras on the same printer would be very interesting. I'll try and do it, shooting landscape in Yellowstone NP.  It would be the closest anyone's ever come to measuring a pure resolution effect - even with all the variables, every other combination I can think of is worse.

Replacing the X-T4 with a Pentax K3 mk III (I don't think I can come up with one at the same time) would eliminate the "one camera is XTrans" variable, but it would add another variable - a third set of processing and algorithms - plus I'm not sure what lens to use on the Pentax. 

The two Fujifilm bodies share quite similar default processing, and should behave similarly in terms of any noise reduction applied to raw files (etc.). The Sony will, of course, differ by more... XTrans throws in a demosaicing challenge - I can't use DxO (my preferred high-end converter) for all three, because DxO doesn't like XTrans. C1 for all three? Adobe would work, but would be a lowest common denominator...

Of course, there's no lens that will go on all three bodies easily. There's really not even a lens that will go on any two. The closest thing would be some manual lens that was adapted on all three bodies (the ideal comparison would be the 85mm Otus on everything, because that would be darn close to a perfect lens on each camera...). I don't still have the Otus around, nor do I have the right collection of adapters... Of course, even that would be opening up field of view as a variable - I think it would be most interesting with matched fields of view (and that's going to mean three different lenses, and probably all zooms).

Even with three different lenses and trying to get the post-processing close, but knowing it won't be exact, it should still be revealing...

24x36" prints on the Canon Pro-2000 should be pretty decent comparison fodder, no?

Let me know about any other considerations anyone thinks should be included...
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 09:21:45 pm by Dan Wells »
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Chris Kern

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2021, 08:50:31 pm »

If I can get an X-T4 out of Fujifilm at the same time (and I'm trying), there's a really interesting "three sizes of the same sensor comparison". I also have an A7r IV. All three use the same sensor generation, the same pixel pitch and, in fact, the same pixel structure. . . .

That would make for a interesting report from my perspective.  I have no intention of investing in medium-format, and have for the most part even abandoned full-frame (I still own but rarely use a Nikon D800E) in favor of my compact, lightweight Fuji X bodies and lenses.  But the trio you are proposing would offer considerable insight into the range of image quality available from the current generation of handheld cameras.

My hunch is that the GFX 100S is targeted more at amateurs like me than toward professional shooters, and that may also be true of its bigger and older sibling: I just don't see what purpose they serve for a working pro with a requirement for fast performance or high resolution that wouldn't be respectively better handled by a full-frame Nikon or Sony or Canon, on the one hand, or a Hasselblad or Phase One, on the other.

But there seems to be no shortage of "enthusiasts" for whom price is no object, and whose backs and legs are better suited than mine for carrying around heavy and bulky equipment that gives them the "pop" and cropping options of 100 megapixels—and the early sales reports seem to indicate that Fuji's marketing wizards know what they are doing.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2021, 11:55:07 pm »

My hunch is that the GFX 100S is targeted more at amateurs like me than toward professional shooters, and that may also be true of its bigger and older sibling: I just don't see what purpose they serve for a working pro with a requirement for fast performance or high resolution that wouldn't be respectively better handled by a full-frame Nikon or Sony or Canon, on the one hand, or a Hasselblad or Phase One, on the other.

This was exactly my experience with the GFX100, but I find myself using the GFX100s a lot more.

Cheers,
Bernard

Rand47

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2021, 09:35:19 am »

Given that the sensor and processor is identical to the GFX 100, I don’t see any point in a review of the GFX 100s for other than the difference in physical ergonomics.  Size and handling characteristics aside (which may be a great improvement for some use-cases) the 100s is merely a down spec’d version; one battery, no removable viewfinder, no ability to use tilt adapter, lower resolution  EVF, lower refresh rate EVF, no possibility of a vertical grip.  What’s to review?  Even the supposed half a stop improvement in the IBIS, and the different AF algorithm will be “gone” when the latest firmware for the GFX 100 is released in June.

The GFX 100 has been reviewed “to death” by everyone and their uncle.  Many of whom obviously never bothered to read the camera’s manual.  And let me suggest that a 36” print isn’t even going to make the sensor sweat - so if that’s the comparison point with other formats, don’t bother.

Rand

Sorrel and Fern GFX 100

« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 09:39:00 am by Rand47 »
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Rand Scott Adams

BernardLanguillier

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2021, 09:44:54 am »

Given that the sensor and processor is identical to the GFX 100, I don’t see any point in a review of the GFX 100s for other than the difference in physical ergonomics.  Size and handling characteristics aside (which may be a great improvement for some use-cases) the 100s is merely a down spec’d version; one battery, no removable viewfinder, no ability to use tilt adapter, lower resolution  EVF, lower refresh rate EVF, no possibility of a vertical grip.  What’s to review?  Even the supposed half a stop improvement in the IBIS, and the different AF algorithm will be “gone” when the latest firmware for the GFX 100 is released in June.

That’s certainly one way to look at it.

I look at the relationship btwn them the exact opposite way though.

To me none ofthe GFX100 advantages have any practical value but the smaller size and lower weight of the 100s make it a much more useful value proposition for the niche the GFX addresses better than the other cameras I use, which is landscape and slow paces « street » photography.

I rarely used by 100 vs the Z7/Z7II or IQ3-100, I find myself using the 100s much more frequently.

Cheers,
Bernard

Paul2660

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2021, 10:05:12 am »

For me, the financial loss of selling a GFX100 makes moving to the 100s a no go.  10K, for the 100, and it's still priced there, 6K for the 100s, so you will have to sell the GFX100 at around 4K? Quite a loss.

I prefer a vertical grip as I do a lot of portrait orientation shots for stitching later on.  The tilt adapter I have used and comes in nice for macro work at times.  As I had one from my 50s, was an easy decision to keep it.

Image quality should be very close to the same between the two cameras.  There are some claims that the 100s has a bit more shadow recovery than the 100, for what I shoot the 100 has plenty.

There is a 4.0 firmware coming in June for the GFX100, and Fuji is claiming that it's designed to bring the GFX100 into "spec" with the 100s, Not sure if this will improve image quality or not.  Seems mostly pointed to AF improvements and video.

The weight mass of the GFX100 is still much smaller than a Phase One XF / IQ4 and 40-80 lens, and has a lot of more modern features. 

The main issue I have always had with the Fuji GFX family of cameras is manual focus via the EVF, or LCD.  The EVF on the GFX100 is rated to a higher pixel count and I still can't often dial in the exact manual focus needed, with or without peaking (and Fuji's implementation of focus peaking is still not close to other cameras like Sony/Nikon or Leica).  So manual focus with the lower pixel count EVF, could be even more problematic.

For the GFX cameras, I have always relied on AF.  When the AF gets a hit, it's almost always 100% for me and I just depend on it.  It can't handle low contrast scenes well even on the GFX100 which is PDAF, so I would welcome any improvements from the 100s AF via firmware.

Can't argue on the fact that the 100s is much smaller, and thus can be carried in the field with less effort, and if the 100s and 100 both camera out at the same time I would have opt'd for the 100s.  Just can't take the loss now. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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Rand47

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2021, 10:13:46 am »

That’s certainly one way to look at it.

I look at the relationship btwn them the exact opposite way though.

To me none ofthe GFX100 advantages have any practical value but the smaller size and lower weight of the 100s make it a much more useful value proposition for the niche the GFX addresses better than the other cameras I use, which is landscape and slow paces « street » photography.

I rarely used by 100 vs the Z7/Z7II or IQ3-100, I find myself using the 100s much more frequently.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yup, that’s my point.  Smaller, lighter, more “packable.”  Review complete.  Nothing else to say, really.

Rand
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Rand Scott Adams

Rand47

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2021, 10:16:30 am »

Quote
Image quality should be very close to the same between the two cameras.  There are some claims that the 100s has a bit more shadow recovery than the 100, for what I shoot the 100 has plenty.

The image quality is identical.  Same sensor, same processor, and as of June, the same firmware. 

I’ve seen zero difference in files.

Rand
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Dan Wells

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2021, 12:12:30 pm »

There probably isn't more than a very minor difference in files (I've seen some suggestion of minor changes in processing around the PDAF files, which may be possible to back-port to the original 100 via firmware). If, however, it's a lot more usable, it can be reviewed in ways the original simply couldn't... Also, if it's a much more pleasant camera to use, it encourages people to use it. When I had the original in for review, it was such a pain that it never got far beyond test shots. If this one is ergonomically much better in size, weight and interface, it'll be more usable for real images...

I taught photography for over a decade - I know camera interfaces well, and I can pick up anything, get it into the desired mode and shoot with it. Some menus are trickier than others, but "get it in aperture priority, shooting raw, with single shot focus and a movable focus point"? That should be five minutes for an experienced photographer on any camera without the manual (well, not if the camera is a 4x5" Wista and doesn't have those settings). The original 100 is the only camera I've encountered in a decade or more where I couldn't do that...

If the 100S has that fixed, and is easier to carry and hold, it's a far better creative tool, and I'll have different images to review it with...
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Paul2660

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2021, 02:16:11 pm »

Different strokes I guess. Never have had issues with the menus, interface etc with the 100.

Menu system follows all Fuji cameras I have used and mirrored the 50s.

Hope you have a better experience with the 100s.

I use Manual mode exclusively, setup for 3 shot bracketing.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2021, 05:13:04 pm »

There probably isn't more than a very minor difference in files (I've seen some suggestion of minor changes in processing around the PDAF files, which may be possible to back-port to the original 100 via firmware). If, however, it's a lot more usable, it can be reviewed in ways the original simply couldn't... Also, if it's a much more pleasant camera to use, it encourages people to use it. When I had the original in for review, it was such a pain that it never got far beyond test shots. If this one is ergonomically much better in size, weight and interface, it'll be more usable for real images...

I taught photography for over a decade - I know camera interfaces well, and I can pick up anything, get it into the desired mode and shoot with it. Some menus are trickier than others, but "get it in aperture priority, shooting raw, with single shot focus and a movable focus point"? That should be five minutes for an experienced photographer on any camera without the manual (well, not if the camera is a 4x5" Wista and doesn't have those settings). The original 100 is the only camera I've encountered in a decade or more where I couldn't do that...

If the 100S has that fixed, and is easier to carry and hold, it's a far better creative tool, and I'll have different images to review it with...

The physical UI of the 100s is more classical, pretty much identical to that of my Nikons and therefore more approachable.

I find the Fuji menus confusing also. No change here. But it’s possible to configure the UI so as to very rarely have to use them so that ends up being a minor pain.

Cheers,
Bernard

Rand47

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2021, 05:16:07 pm »

Quote
There probably isn't more than a very minor difference in files (I've seen some suggestion of minor changes in processing around the PDAF files, which may be possible to back-port to the original 100 via firmware).

Already done.  Read Jim Kasson’s blog on the subject.

As a matter of fact, for anyone wanting detailed, carefully tested info on all aspects of both the GFX 100 and the 100s, Jim Kasson’s tests / reports are excellent.

Rand

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Rand Scott Adams

Rand47

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2021, 08:30:07 pm »

Here’s something interesting for consideration in Dan’s review.  Start at 17.5 minutes in….

https://youtu.be/s2jNkPlGJAohttps://youtu.be/s2jNkPlGJAo

Rand
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Dan Wells

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2021, 03:33:30 am »

That strikes me as a VERY good argument to use an L-bracket on this thing (which will be supported by the edge of the body as well as the poor-quality bushing)... I suspect we don't want to know how tripod mounts are attached to MANY cameras... Are they all (or mostly) like this? The dual-grip bodies are likely to be different, but is anything else (other than an old 'blad that is machined out of one piece of metal)...
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Manoli

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2021, 10:12:52 am »

That strikes me as a VERY good argument to use an L-bracket on this thing …

Strikes me as an EVEN BETTER argument to be wary of ‘utilitarian’ Japanese build [/levity, sort-of] and these reports, from a very reliable source, aren’t helping … “Unfortunately my Fuji GFX100S shutter has failed. This seems to be a relatively common problem …

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/index.php?threads/gfx100s-shutter-failure.71022/
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2021, 01:53:09 pm »

Strikes me as an EVEN BETTER argument to be wary of ‘utilitarian’ Japanese build [/levity, sort-of] and these reports, from a very reliable source, aren’t helping … “Unfortunately my Fuji GFX100S shutter has failed. This seems to be a relatively common problem …

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/index.php?threads/gfx100s-shutter-failure.71022/

I may have mentioned this already but the rear screen of my 100s is broken although I never dropped it and don’t remember any significant shock.

Never has the issue with any other digital camera I’ve used.

It has no functional or usability impact so I have not had it fixed yet but it raises concerns for me in terms of robustness.

Dan Wells

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2021, 02:37:44 pm »

It does look like we're seeing build quality issues here... The shutter is said to be a wiring issue (something like a cold solder joint that affected a certain batch)? Fujifilm says it's a five minute fix - but you shouldn't have to send a brand new camera in for repair! It's happened to a number of manufacturers, but it's not a good look...

Dan
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mcbroomf

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2021, 03:03:58 pm »

It does look like we're seeing build quality issues here... The shutter is said to be a wiring issue (something like a cold solder joint that affected a certain batch)? Fujifilm says it's a five minute fix - but you shouldn't have to send a brand new camera in for repair! It's happened to a number of manufacturers, but it's not a good look...

Dan

My Subaru is in the shop for it's 2nd recall, my Toyota truck needs it's 2nd.  The pieces of equipment are incredibly complex.  I'm not saying we should expect these issues, and none of us want them but it doesn't surprise me at all.
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Dan Wells

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Re: GFX 100S coming to LuLa for review
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2021, 12:05:54 am »

I have a similar thread going on the mirrorless forum, since not all of the cameras involved in the test are medium format. Someone over there mentioned the X-T4 has a different way of measuring ISO, which means its base ISO of 160 is far more like a Sony or Nikon version of ISO 100. I remembered reading this when I was reminded of it... Does anyone know if this is also true of the GFX 100S? If so, I should probably throw the Nikon Z7 (and its base ISO of 64) into the comparison...
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