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Author Topic: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?  (Read 1271 times)

StuartR

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In comparison to the 9900 and P9000, I feel like am always waiting for this printer to do something. Am I alone? For example, the instructions for loading are a waste of time after the first time you have loaded it...is there anyway to just turn them off? I wish there were a button to just open and close the clamp. Rather than, "oh, hi. Have we met? I am the P9500. It seems like today you have decided to open my cover. I know that most times that people do that, they want to load paper or take paper out. Now, I don't want to push you or anything, but is that something you would like to do? Maybe I could release the clamp for you or at least make the roll turn freely? I know, I am being presumptuous, so I will not do anything until you say so. Oh, you are wearing cotton gloves? I know the paper companies all recommend them. They look great, by the way. The only thing, though...well, I have a touch screen, so you are going to have to take your gloves off. Sorry. Yeah, I know, the old ones had buttons, but look on the bright side, now I can show you a picture of the picture that you were just looking at on the screen. Isn't that fun?! Oh, what was it you were asking again?"

Even the lid is annoying...I tried to close it quicker than its slow soft close mechanism and it sounded like it was stripping gears. Is there any way to disable the soft close mechanism? I feel like the printer prints faster, but in the end it takes longer because all the automation requires so many clicks and presses just to get to the thing you want to do. I much preferred having everything saved in the driver, and having manual clamping and loading. If I could just go back to the P9000, I would, but it is not really an option. Meanwhile, the prints look no better than they did in the P9000 (if anything, they are more prone to banding and bronzing without using the BEO). The only thing I like about this printer is the lack of ink switching and the time estimate, but in most other ways it is frustrating. It is a real step back in design, especially since most people who use these printers use them all day long, and do not need to be taught how to load every single time!
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George Marinos

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2021, 06:10:08 am »

Wow. All that sounds like over-engineered nonsense. There are only two improvements we needed 1. Both blacks available at all times ( compared to HP and Canon they are 13 years late with this basic function, but they finally got there ), and #2 - print heads that don’t  continually clog or delaminate just when your warranty expires, jury still out on that.. All the rest of this is the kind of thing sales people love and engineers cringe about. Im surprised it doesn’t talk like Siri.

This is one point. The other point is the printing quality that Epson printers offer...
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George Marinos
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Gerd_Peters

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2021, 07:50:10 am »

The touch screen of the P9500 can be operated perfectly with gloves.

You can also use the back of a pencil (eraser).

Epson does not seem to have installed a conventional capacitive touchscreen.

Greetings Gerd
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StuartR

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2021, 05:25:20 pm »

Hi Gerd,
You are right, that is strange. I could have sworn it did not work with the Hahnemühle gloves that I last tried it with, but maybe I just didn't hit it right? Or maybe there is something in the glove? Maybe it is their composition? I think they are polyester. I tried it again today with cotton gloves and it worked, albeit slightly unconfidently.

In any case, I stand by the rest. I find the screen ergonomically unsatisfying, and feel like the buttons worked much more securely and confidently. It was easy to be confident because they never change position, are much larger, and offer tactile feedback when pressed. Certainly the loading is needlessly complicated. Touch screen or not, there should just be a button to open and close the clamp. It was so simple in the 9900, I have no idea why they changed it! Press the button and roll the paper down to the line. Press the button again, done.

Nor should the printer stop operations if the lid is open. For example, if I turn on the printer and want to load a roll of paper, I cannot do so, because you turn on the printer and open the lid to the printer to put in a paper roll and it stops the startup sequence and says "please close printer lid", and it will not continue to turn on until you do so. Once it has already done its full start up sequence (which is the same whether paper is in the holder or not), only then can you open the lid. I know this is only a matter of a short time, but I find it very annoying, because instead of just going about my work and loading at the same time the printer starts up, I have stand there in front of the printer and wait when I could be loading. It is just emblematic of the problem with the printer...automation is great if it adds to efficiency, but in the case of the 9500 I feel like all it is doing is adding additional hurdles to my day. I have to spend all day with this printer, and I don't want to resent it!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 05:31:09 pm by StuartR »
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Rand47

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2021, 10:02:49 pm »

I use microfiber lint-free gloves when loading roll paper in my SC P7570 printer and have no trouble at all with the LCD “buttons.”  And I actually like the way the printer works, very much.  Unless one is swapping paper type / rolls every other print or some such, the roll loading is very nice, I think.  It isn’t “fast” but it also isn’t slow in my opinion. It’s “methodical.”  And once I know the button press sequence for any given function (like loading rolls and setting paper parameters) it doesn’t seem any slower than other roll paper Epson printers I’ve used.  And I like the “confirmation” and immediate access to printing parameters that comes along with the loading sequence.  I even like the “soft close” cover.  LOL Maybe it’s a “zen” thing for me or something.  I appreciate the quiet, non banging.

The caveat is that I’m not a volume print shop, so that might make a big difference.  I rarely load/unload more than a couple of different rolls in any given day.

Rand
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deanwork

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2021, 10:54:45 pm »

It takes me exactly 30 seconds to load my 9890 rolls. I guess we will see in the long run run if all these bells and whistles and automated mechanisms turn out to be assets or just something else to require servicing and replacement. I like the idea of accessing the head to clean it and the light inside to monitor things and clean the carriage area . Those seem really useful.

I haven’t bought one yet but I’m pretty close. I hate to even comment on printers I don't have access to. But what  really concerns me at this point is all the head strikes that I’ve been hearing about on these forums. Head strikes are exactly what kills print heads. I’ve been told that by Epson techs and it makes total sense.  It seems to me from everyone I’ve talked to that setting the exactly precise platen gap and media thickness setting is critical and demands a lot of attention or risk damage. It’s also not cool at all that people are having sheets of canvas jam in there with potential head damage. I’d almost be afraid to run alpha cellulose fiber gloss rolls in them. Thankfully I rarely use anything but cotton media.

They still seem to be the best 44” printers out there right now considering the inks, speed, and image quality. It would be hard for me to go back to the p 9000 at this time.

John





I use microfiber lint-free gloves when loading roll paper in my SC P7570 printer and have no trouble at all with the LCD “buttons.”  And I actually like the way the printer works, very much.  Unless one is swapping paper type / rolls every other print or some such, the roll loading is very nice, I think.  It isn’t “fast” but it also isn’t slow in my opinion. It’s “methodical.”  And once I know the button press sequence for any given function (like loading rolls and setting paper parameters) it doesn’t seem any slower than other roll paper Epson printers I’ve used.  And I like the “confirmation” and immediate access to printing parameters that comes along with the loading sequence.  I even like the “soft close” cover.  LOL Maybe it’s a “zen” thing for me or something.  I appreciate the quiet, non banging.

The caveat is that I’m not a volume print shop, so that might make a big difference.  I rarely load/unload more than a couple of different rolls in any given day.

Rand
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JRSmit

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2021, 01:56:24 am »

To be honest, after a half year of trying to get thec9500 printer to work, i can confirm the paper loading is significantly slower than on a scp9000. Also direct access to print parameters is possible with scp9000 together with Epson remote panel.
I am running scp9000's now without regret. Even a scp20000 is quite fun to run.

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deanwork

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2021, 08:53:18 am »

Do the heads on the P 2000 and 9570 perform better and require less cleanings than the p 9000 series.



To be honest, after a half year of trying to get thec9500 printer to work, i can confirm the paper loading is significantly slower than on a scp9000. Also direct access to print parameters is possible with scp9000 together with Epson remote panel.
I am running scp9000's now without regret. Even a scp20000 is quite fun to run.
[/quote]
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Lessbones

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2021, 05:37:50 pm »

I've gotta say, I absolutely love this thread.  I've been bitching about this kind of stuff for years to anyone who will listen... which is basically nobody... but the level of babying that these newer machines do is really really awful.

Stuart, your impression of a printer introducing itself is spot on and amazing  ;D

I long for the days of the 11880 when it was "oh shit, wait, I didn't mean to do that" and you could just yank the lever and the machine would dumbly return to main blank-face status.  Now I run tons of material through a Canon PRO6000, PRO4000, and an Epson p20000 every day, and they all are so damn annoying with how many button presses it takes to do anything simple.  In the UI dept, the current Epson wins hands down.  My (least) favorite part of the Canon printers is having to explain to somebody who has never used one before how to CUT the damn paper off the roll over the phone:

Uh, tap the screen where it lists all the different loaded possibilities-- it's kind of a couple of squiggles with a "1" and a "2" next to them.  Okay now tap "feed and cut".  Now hit "Cut".  Now confirm that cutting is actually what you want to do.  Now it's going to back spin the roll feeder until it gets tension, so if the media has come un-taped to the roll, you have to either wait until it times out, or stick your hand in there and stop it from moving.  Now it will very quickly and abruptly slice the paper so make sure your hands are in exactly the right places.  Oh, and if you didn't advance the paper past the cutting point to begin with, you're gonna get about 1/16" of paper to handle with on that side.  FFS.  At least I have all the cover sensors disabled by shoving bits of paper everywhere so I can open the lid and actually SEE WHATS HAPPENING.

I regularly use Mimakis and Mutohs and other manner of industrial printers, and while they generally leave you alone more than these aqueous inkjets made for fussy Karen customer service harasser types, they still make incredibly odd decisions.  Mimaki only had the ability to connect their printers via usb and not over ethernet until like... last year?  And by far my most hated feature on any printer is the Mimaki "Remote" button.  Basically, you have to turn the printer "online" before it will accept any commands from the computer or RIP.  Otherwise, it will just sit there doing nothing.  And if your ink is running low, it will switch itself to "local" (offline) mode after every single print.  Meaning, if you launch two things back to back, you have to get up and press the f***ing button again before the second one will print.  The amount of times I have launched something, then come back 30 minutes later to find that it's just sitting offline is staggering.  WHO is this for???  I've heard one technician say that he likes it because it prevents the printer from just starting to print while he's trying to work on it.... but come on, just unplug the damn network cable.

I recently bought a 2.5m hybrid UV printer from a company in China called Blueprint, and I absolutely LOVE the way it operates.  It does not care about me AT ALL.  Backpack laying on the print bed?  Who cares, let's smash $10K worth of print heads into it.  Your problem, not mine-- this is how I want to be treated.  It also gives me access to absolutely every tiny little value of alteration I could ever possibly use-- I can change the voltage on the heads individually, put whatever ink in it I want, use basically whatever RIP software I want, and if it doesn't print correctly, I'm responsible for figuring out why.  I'm a professional printer, this is what I do.  Essentially the thing operates like a CNC machine-- it's not checking to see if your fingers are in the way when the spinning bit comes thrashing through your hand.

My favorite anecdotal evidence of this manufacturer attitude was having the Epson Japan engineers come by to check up on our pre-production p20000, and when I told them about how ridiculously placed the maintenance tanks are (we had one become full in the middle of a 64" wide print, and in that case there's no way to even access it without cutting the paper off with a knife to get to the tank slot) they looked at my Mutoh and asked if I would prefer a solution like it has-- which is just a BUCKET.  "Um, yes of course I would" I said, and "if you wouldn't mind my asking, what is the reasoning behind NOT doing that, and instead making us use these tampon-filled plastic cartridges that need to be replaced every couple of weeks and thrown in the trash".  The answer they gave me was "oh, we think that from experience a lot of our users like to place their large format printers on carpets, so they wouldn't want any ink to drip".

also, deanwork, to answer your question-- a resounding NO to the heads requiring fewer cleanings part.  The cleanings are far longer and arduous than ever.  However, I would say that the heads perform better ultimately.  They are fantastic print heads, and incredibly fast, but just as prone to clogging as ever.  Honestly, I'm not even sure it is physically possible for piezoelectric based heads to BE less clog-prone at this point.  Epson needs to start treating their heads as a consumable like everyone else does, because they always have been.  At least in their new DTG machines you have the option to replace them yourself.


sheesh  /endrant

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Richard.Wills

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2021, 06:07:45 pm »

Amen brother.

Just got a little SL D800. Want to stop it? Open the door. Stops dead. Just two buttons - on, and rewind paper.
Compared to the old 9800 or 7890, I have moments when I have to force myself to be calm with the 8400. Oh wait, I want to pull the last of the paper roll through, which the £"{};ng paper manufacturer decided to hold in place with half a dozen strips of scotch tape, just to glue the works up good and proper.

££$

/end rant
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Lessbones

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2021, 06:32:11 pm »

Oh god, don't get me started on the ends of the paper tape...  please, for gods sake, NEVER let a roll of Canson Baryta II end in your machine.  It took our PRO6000 down for a whole week while I disassembled every part that had a screw or plastic tab, breaking half of the shit plastic tabs off, and it still hasn't been the same ever since.  I also think I sustained a about a half dozen puncture wounds from the 38 high tension springs covered in white lithium grease that I had to pry out to remove the weird plastic fingers that hold the paper down against the feed roller.  Basically the tape they used was a loose mess of fibers and glue which exploded absolutely everywhere, coating the feed roller and every other surface inside the canon.  None of those areas are accessible for cleaning.  Also, it managed to cause the feed motor to strain so hard that it broke a tooth off of the drive belt.  I think I got a single free roll of platine out of that mess, but the fact that it is literally impossible to clean the paper feed path on the Canon in inexcusable.
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deanwork

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2021, 06:50:30 pm »

I just worked with a roll of the Moab Entrada that I’m doing carbon prints on and was pleased to find out there is no tape on the end at all. That also keeps the roll less tightly wound and I can use the entire roll.

Anyway thanks for the info.

And yes piezo electric heads can be designed to not clogg. I’ve been doing this since and before the first pigment Epsons came out. First pigment printer I bought was an Epson CF 10k. It was 6 channels with one universal black.  The heads were like twice the size of the p 9000? It was pretty fast too. I used it everyday for 10 years with Epson inks and then a couple of years with Piezography k6. You want to know how many replacement waste tanks I installed? None. When I gave it away the waste tank was only 3/4 full. I’m serious. I did tons of big prints for all these years. It never ever clogged. I never did nozzle checks and 90% of the media I used was cotton matte rag. Epson licensed theses same heads to Roland Hi Fi 60” machines and they didn’t clogg either. Of course the gamut was weak and black and white nearly impossible, and no grays produced metameric failure, but of the 11 large format printers I’ve owned it was totally free of trouble and never needed servicing. They were only 1440 ppi printers but you could get great results from Studio Print. So it can be done. My second most reliable printer that never needed servicing was the Canon 8300. It was great with fiber gloss media and everything else. No head strikes. I just replaced the main board on it and that’s not solving it so the poor thing is finally at the end of the line. That was a work horse.

So All things considered, what is the best 44” Epson out there? I know I’ll have to keep any of them in warranty but I’m not looking for media crunching head clogging headaches.

John




Oh god, don't get me started on the ends of the paper tape...  please, for gods sake, NEVER let a roll of Canson Baryta II end in your machine.  It took our PRO6000 down for a whole week while I disassembled every part that had a screw or plastic tab, breaking half of the shit plastic tabs off, and it still hasn't been the same ever since.  I also think I sustained a about a half dozen puncture wounds from the 38 high tension springs covered in white lithium grease that I had to pry out to remove the weird plastic fingers that hold the paper down against the feed roller.  Basically the tape they used was a loose mess of fibers and glue which exploded absolutely everywhere, coating the feed roller and every other surface inside the canon.  None of those areas are accessible for cleaning.  Also, it managed to cause the feed motor to strain so hard that it broke a tooth off of the drive belt.  I think I got a single free roll of platine out of that mess, but the fact that it is literally impossible to clean the paper feed path on the Canon in inexcusable.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 09:50:59 am by deanwork »
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StuartR

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2021, 07:24:04 am »

Lessbones, you are making me laugh as well. I understand your feeling, and feel similarly. I once had the Scandinavian Epson reps visit my studio and I was very excited to ask a number of questions I had about paper and media settings and what the printer is actually doing and how to differentiate etc, and they said basically: "We have no idea. You are the only one who has ever asked. Most users just press the button and print." I get that many shops are doing pretty much that, but I find it very frustrating that there is so little documentation or information about how to use these printers. Instead we have to rely entirely on hard to find information dispersed over web forums and from "insiders", who seem to be a lucky few people who actually have a line to engineers who understand how the printers have been designed and what they are actually doing.

Regarding clogging, the 9500 has been doing very well for me, but the P9000 was not bad either. The 9900 was a nightmare...especially in the beginning. I love not having to switch inks, I like the light, and the speed is nice. But there is something "off" in the look of some prints for me. I am still not sure what it is. It is more in the gloss/baryta papers, so maybe it has to do with ink load, or maybe I need to use BEO more. Matte papers look great. I am frustrated at how much paper it wastes at the end of the roll, as well as during nozzle checks. I dislike having to trade off between "edge quality", the right size margins and gloss differential. I guess the huge head is the culprit in most of these things. I would prefer lower speed and better quality, less paper wastage. I think I would have much preferred a P9000 without ink switching and an integrated light. That would have been enough for me. But I run a single-person fine art lab. I understand that most of these printers are sold to larger, higher volume shops and probably are operated by people who are running more as a 9-5 job than as a personal mission to make the best prints possible. Since my own practice is what led me to setting up a shop to print for others, half the work I put in to making good prints is for my own exhibitions, and I basically sell that experience as a service to other artists.
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Richard.Wills

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Re: Anyone else frustrated by the automation of the P9500? Any workarounds?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2021, 08:06:24 am »

Oh god, don't get me started on the ends of the paper tape...  please, for gods sake, NEVER let a roll of Canson Baryta II end in your machine.  It took our PRO6000 down for a whole week while I disassembled every part that had a screw or plastic tab, breaking half of the shit plastic tabs off, and it still hasn't been the same ever since.  I also think I sustained a about a half dozen puncture wounds from the 38 high tension springs covered in white lithium grease that I had to pry out to remove the weird plastic fingers that hold the paper down against the feed roller.  Basically the tape they used was a loose mess of fibers and glue which exploded absolutely everywhere, coating the feed roller and every other surface inside the canon.  None of those areas are accessible for cleaning.  Also, it managed to cause the feed motor to strain so hard that it broke a tooth off of the drive belt.  I think I got a single free roll of platine out of that mess, but the fact that it is literally impossible to clean the paper feed path on the Canon in inexcusable.

That would explain why the latest stocks of Canson papers have a large red sticker saying do not use more than 15metres on the roll (prestige Baryta and Etching Rag). I guess this is what happens when the bean counters get to chose how to improve the product.
Strangely, it was always the Hahnemuhle papers that would jam us up.

Love the rolls of Epson Enhanced matt - foam padded cores, with a slight adhesive strip. I guess foam padding is a no no these days.
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