Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine

[faberryman]

How do you discuss policies without discussing politics? They go together

This thread is suppose to be about the Novavax vaccine. It is not supposed to be about policy and politics. We should go back to the other thread.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Just trying to work out what you actually are claiming - can you explain?

I am saying that China released the virus to see how quickly the West would resort to fascism. So far, they are succeeding splendidly. No amount of Chinese military aggression would have achieved it so quickly and thoroughly.

[jeremyrh]

I am saying that China released the virus to see how quickly the West would resort to fascism. So far, they are succeeding splendidly. No amount of Chinese military aggression would have achieved it so quickly and thoroughly.

Ah, OK, I see - just paranoid fantasy then.

[Paulo Bizarro]

I am saying that China released the virus to see how quickly the West would resort to fascism. So far, they are succeeding splendidly. No amount of Chinese military aggression would have achieved it so quickly and thoroughly.

If by fascism you mean far-right wing parties/factions rising in importance in the West and Europe, they were doing so well before Covid and any paranoid theories you might have about the Chinese.

[Robert Roaldi]

I am saying that China released the virus to see how quickly the West would resort to fascism. So far, they are succeeding splendidly. No amount of Chinese military aggression would have achieved it so quickly and thoroughly.

Fascist? I thought we were all leftie communist "libtards". Somebody better tell Alan, he's going to need new sound bite cassettes.

[LesPalenik]

German health experts warned on Saturday against any further easing of coronavirus lockdown measures as the number of cases dramatically increased.

The Robert Koch Institute (RKI) for infectious diseases predicted that the number of daily reported cases could exceed 30,000 in the 14th week of the year starting April 12.
"An extrapolation of the trends shows that case numbers can be expected above the Christmas level from week 14 onwards," the RKI said in its current situation report. On Saturday, the number of COVID-19 cases rose by 12,674 and the death toll was up 239, with the number of cases per 100,000 over seven days jumping to 76.1 from 72.4.

Germany's death toll from the virus stands at 73,301, with a reported 2,558,455 infections.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/world/german-experts-warn-against-lockdown-easing-as-cases-jump-563142/

[Robert Roaldi]

German health experts warned on Saturday against any further easing of coronavirus lockdown measures as the number of cases dramatically increased.

Why would we ease up at the start of the vaccination process?

[LesPalenik]

Why would we ease up at the start of the vaccination process?

That was in Germany, but Ontario eased up on store closures as well. Unfortunately, for many stores the re-opening came too late, they had to close permanently,

Over the past few years, Canada has seen many well-known retailers experience financial troubles. Especially now more than ever, with the ongoing pandemic, these companies have had to endure store closures or even shut down business permanently in 2021. Although, some storefront closings may be due to changing business models and customer demands, others have been because of the lack of business revenue.

https://www.styledemocracy.com/the-running-list-of-retail-store-closures-and-bankruptcies-in-2021/

Dr. Fauci is also concerned about rise of C19 cases in Europe.

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/fauci-concerned-over-surge-european-133805663.html

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Fascist? I thought we were all leftie communist "libtards". ...

Same difference. China is a fascist state now. America slowly growing into.

[faberryman]

Same difference. China is a fascist state now. America slowly growing into.

As is usually the case, it all depends on how you define fascism, but perhaps more importantly why you define it in the manner you do.

[Alan Klein]

As is usually the case, it all depends on how you define fascism, but perhaps more importantly why you define it in the manner you do.

When a government gets so powerful and the people lose more of their freedoms, then you have a system I don't think any of us would want to live in.  Arguing about the definition of Fascism is really beside the point.  And too late.

[faberryman]

Arguing about the definition of Fascism is really beside the point.

Not really. For example, you are using the term fascist as a vague pejorative (a political system in which the "government gets so powerful and the people lose more of their freedoms" that "I don't think any of us would want to live in"), and not as a specific descriptor (a political system which has the following characteristics: [and then list them]). It is helpful to know that so we can carry on a discussion without talking past one another. So if I say Trump is a fascist, you and I may disagree on what the term means, and it would be helpful for me to explain what I mean. You might still disagree, but you and I would at least know what we are disagreeing about.

[Alan Klein]

Not really. For example, you are using the term fascist as a vague pejorative (a political system in which the "government gets so powerful and the people lose more of their freedoms" that "I don't think any of us would want to live in"), and not as a specific descriptor (a political system which has the following characteristics: [and then list them]). It is helpful to know that so we can carry on a discussion without talking past one another. So if I say Trump is a fascist, you and I may disagree on what the term means, and it would be helpful for me to explain what I mean. You might still disagree, but you and I would at least know what we are disagreeing about.

I deliberately avoided an exact definition.  People dispute what it actually means especially left vs. right.  But it does include an authoritative or totalitarian regime that generally controls the populace and the levers of government and industry.  I would rather discuss which methods of government lead to more or less freedom.  That avoids the confusion of defining Fascism.   

This Wiki essay reviews its various meanings.  As you'll see, it's quite diverse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

[faberryman]

This Wiki essay reviews its various meanings.  As you'll see, it's quite diverse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

I asked Slobodan what he meant by fascism because of the diversity of meanings of the term. You butted in and said the definition of fascism was beside the point. Then you provided a link to different definitions of fascism.

[Alan Klein]

I asked Slobodan what he meant by fascism because of the diversity of meanings you noted. You butted in and said definitions were beside the point. Then you provide a link to different definitions of fascism.

Well, China's government controls their state and the people suffer from a loss of many freedoms.  Cuba, North Korea, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and other countries have oppressive governments as well.  America is moving in that direction as we give up economic, political, and social decisions and control to the government.  I think that's the point Slobodan was making. Arguing whether it's Fascist or some other term is a diversion to what's actually happening.  We should stay focused on the effect, not a name.

[faberryman]

Well, China's government controls their state and the people suffer from a loss of many freedoms.  Cuba, North Korea, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and other countries have oppressive governments as well.  America is moving in that direction as we give up economic, political, and social decisions and control to the government.  I think that's the point Slobodan was making. Arguing whether it's Fascist or some other term is a diversion to what's actually happening.  We should stay focused on the effect, not a name.

You should take that up with Slobodan. He was using names and not effects.  Also, I think it would be better if you let Slobodan explain the point he is making rather than you explain the point you think he is making. He is perfectly capable of expressing himself when he wants to, and there might be less confusion.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

As is usually the case, it all depends on how you define fascism, but perhaps more importantly why you define it in the manner you do.

Frank,

Socialism, communism, and fascism have many things similar. While socialism and communism are generally rather well defined and have theoretical underpinnings via the works of Marx and Engels, in my view fascism is mostly defined via historical examples (Italy, Germany) and not exactly via a theory. One of the key differences between fascism vs. the other two is the relationship with private property. While socialism (and communism as its final stage) reject private property, fascism embraces it, especially in its corporate form. By that definition, China is today a fascist country: totalitarian, one-party regime with private property, corporations, and more billionaires than New York (I didn't check that).

America is moving in that direction, toward a one-party system via political correctness and cancel culture, while retaining private property and control over major corporations (again, via PC and cancel culture, not formally).

[TechTalk]

This thread is suppose to be about the Novavax vaccine. It is not supposed to be about policy and politics. We should go back to the other thread.

Perhaps the best approach, to the rude and childish individuals that continue to insist on diverting a discussion on promising new vaccines into a political debate, would be to either ignore their diversions or copy and paste their comments and reply to them in the other thread, where the host of this party has requested those discussions be held. If they then want to continue lying on the floor and kicking their heels in a tantrum to keep their political discussions in this thread — where it makes no sense — let them do it amongst themselves. Meanwhile, we can continue to discuss the recent developments in vaccines.

[faberryman]

Socialism, communism, and fascism have many things similar. While socialism and communism are generally rather well defined and have theoretical underpinnings via the works of Marx and Engels, in my view fascism is mostly defined via historical examples (Italy, Germany) and not exactly via a theory. One of the key differences between fascism vs. the other two is the relationship with private property. While socialism (and communism as its final stage) reject private property, fascism embraces it, especially in its corporate form. By that definition, China is today a fascist country: totalitarian, one-party regime with private property, corporations, and more billionaires than New York (I didn't check that).

I don't completely disagree with your position and understand how you arrived at it; however, I think by focusing on the characteristics that historical fascism has in common with the current political and economic situation in China, you may be overlooking ways in which they differ. I approach it more from a logical perspective. For example, if I say men have ten toes and women have ten toes, therefore men and women are the same, I would have erred. You can add ankles and knees and hips and fingers and wrists and elbows and all the rest that both men and women have in common, and if you say since men and women have all of these characteristics in common, men and women are the same, and again you would have erred. So I think it is important to look at not only the similarities but also at the differences. I am not going to get in a discussion with you about all the ways in which historical fascism differs from the current political and economic situation in China. I really don't have the level of interest to do so. Even so, it might be that, if we did have that discussion, you would be able to convince me in the end that the only significant difference between historical fascism and current political and economic system in China is that historical fascism was right wing and China is left wing. Isn't that enough? Frankly, I think there is so much current disagreement among academics about the essential elements of fascism that we would be better off leaving the term fascism to its historic context and coming up with something else.

[Alan Klein]

We were discussing this recently.

Most Americans who got first COVID-19 vaccine dose also got final shot - CDC
https://www.yahoo.com/news/most-americans-got-first-covid-173334070.html