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Author Topic: Changing Skies - Opinions  (Read 2009 times)

RSL

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2021, 10:44:26 am »

Exactly, Chris. We work with an image. It's an image, not the thing itself. The camera never will capture the image exactly as you saw the thing itself, so you always need post-processing. I suspect that if you line up three people and have all three shoot an identical picture, what you'll see after the three post-process the results is three slightly different images. There's a heavy load of subjectivity in how we see things. So in the end, an image always is an interpretation of the thing itself. But if your objective is reportage you don't get to make interpretive changes in things like the sky.
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Chris Calohan

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2021, 11:13:03 am »

Agreed. I've changed one sky in 22 years of shooting digital. It was okay and really did enhance the image but as you state, it's cheating to the worst degree.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2021, 01:12:20 pm »

Authenticity is an important criterion for many.  In this day when more and more people are skeptical about the truth of what they hear and see, PS just adds to that distrust.  I don't think that's a good thing.  It's also disheartening when someone looks at your photo, and asks suspiciously, "Oh, did you Photoshop it?"  They're not ready to give credit to your work.

RSL

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2021, 02:22:41 pm »

I'll say it again: There are two kinds of photography, reportage and what I'll have to call "art." If you're recording events or doing street photography you need to make sure your stuff is believable and unedited. "unedited" doesn't mean you can't do normal post-processing in something like Camera Raw to make sure colors and contrast are correct, but it does mean you can't change the meaning of the picture. With art, you're doing the same kind of thing a painter does. You're trying to produce something esthetically pleasing, not something historically accurate. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't try to pretend the second kind of photography is the first kind.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2021, 03:06:35 pm »

I'll say it again: There are two kinds of photography, reportage and what I'll have to call "art." If you're recording events or doing street photography you need to make sure your stuff is believable and unedited. "unedited" doesn't mean you can't do normal post-processing in something like Camera Raw to make sure colors and contrast are correct, but it does mean you can't change the meaning of the picture. With art, you're doing the same kind of thing a painter does. You're trying to produce something esthetically pleasing, not something historically accurate. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't try to pretend the second kind of photography is the first kind.
Those are fine points our photographic community might or might not agree with.  But for the average guy looking at a photograph, PS has undermined the credibility of our work.  Average people don't think they're real anymore. And it's getting worse with programs like AI.  That they're just some creation done by an app in Photoshop.  As far as they know, we just sit by our computers turning out images, which is true to a small or large degree. The fact is their cellphone shots may not be as pretty as ours.  But they're more authentic.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2021, 03:38:00 pm »

Real photographers are fighting a losing battle against armchair "artists."

rabanito

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2021, 05:19:48 pm »

Real photographers are fighting a losing battle against armchair "artists."

If armchair artists produce better images than "real photographers", so be it :-)
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rabanito

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2021, 05:22:52 pm »

I'll say it again: There are two kinds of photography, reportage and what I'll have to call "art." If you're recording events or doing street photography you need to make sure your stuff is believable and unedited. "unedited" doesn't mean you can't do normal post-processing in something like Camera Raw to make sure colors and contrast are correct, but it does mean you can't change the meaning of the picture. With art, you're doing the same kind of thing a painter does. You're trying to produce something esthetically pleasing, not something historically accurate. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't try to pretend the second kind of photography is the first kind.
I agree with this.
However, Eisenstaedts's "Kiss" is a fake but a great image IMHO
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rgs

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2021, 05:26:11 pm »

Thanks, again, for such an interesting discussion. I wanted to see various viewpoints and you have not disappointed. In real estate photography, I am commonly expected to change a sky. I also put fire in fireplaces and photographs on TV screens. The photographs are for advertising purposes and meant to make the place look its best. I DO NOT patch damaged walls, remove power lines, or anything else that will misrepresent the property. That is unethical and can even cause trouble for the agents. Recently I photographed a house that had damaged walls in the master bath - the damage was even marked with blue tape. A couple of weeks afterward, I got a call from the agent asking me to go re-photograph the bathroom. I asked if it had been repaired and he assured me it had, so I told him it was not necessary to return and fixed it in Photoshop - after I knew the repairs had been made at the property.

With regard to the hawk, it seems to me that the third shot with the sunset colors in the sky changes the photograph to the point of altering the subject while the second one is more neutral because it just fills the dead sky in a very normal way. It seems to me that, as a general rule, alterations that could have been done in a darkroom or help re-create what the photographer actually saw are OK (unless you are Jerry Uelsmann). Other changes are a bit more problematic and may well depend on the purpose of the photograph. I think that if I am asked if I changed the sky, I probably crossed the line.

Thanks, again, for the great discussion.
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rgs

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2021, 05:27:52 pm »

I agree with this.
However, Eisenstaedts's "Kiss" is a fake but a great image IMHO

Anyone who has photographed a wedding knows about setting up / re-creating a photograph.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2021, 05:36:40 pm »

If armchair artists produce better images than "real photographers", so be it :-)

It will kill photography shot with a camera. Why bother going out on an icy morning to capture a sunrise photo when you can do all the hard work sitting in your pajamas at a computer desk sipping your hot coffee?

rabanito

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2021, 05:36:58 pm »

It's also disheartening when someone looks at your photo, and asks suspiciously, "Oh, did you Photoshop it?"  They're not ready to give credit to your work.

I don't understand this. Why care? It's your picture.

I remember many years ago while I was having some coffee with the person in charge of one famous gallery a couple came to us and asked the price of one Jean-Loup Sieff print being exhibited.

The answer was
"xy $" (well it was a different currency)
"Ah good!" said the man. "And limited to how many copies ?"
"Unlimited"
"Ah, no! In that case it's too expensive!"

OMG  ::)


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Alan Klein

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2021, 05:45:58 pm »

I don't understand this. Why care? It's your picture.

I remember many years ago while I was having some coffee with the person in charge of one famous gallery a couple came to us and asked the price of one Jean-Loup Sieff print being exhibited.

The answer was
"xy $" (well it was a different currency)
"Ah good!" said the man. "And limited to how many copies ?"
"Unlimited"
"Ah, no! In that case it's too expensive!"

OMG  ::)



Then why are you showing it to someone else?  Obviously, you're looking for "attaboys".    The moment you show your picture to someone else or try to sell it to them, they want to know about its authenticity.  A photo means you've taken it with a camera. Other than some minor exposure adjustments, they assume the view they're looking at bears some resemblance to what you shot at the time.  If they want to buy some artwork from a computer, they should be told that. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2021, 05:48:20 pm »

What about photos for dating sites?   8)

rabanito

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2021, 05:51:53 pm »

It will kill photography shot with a camera. Why bother going out on an icy morning to capture a sunrise photo when you can do all the hard work sitting in your pajamas at a computer desk sipping your hot coffee?
Not what I mean.
I do photography MY way.
I like to go out freezing and capturing something I saw and interpreting it (or trying to) as I felt it at the moment.

I take this discussion in a more general way. I personally don't change skies, I don't use very slow speeds while photographing running water for an effect I didn't "see" in nature and so on.
For some people it's a point d'honneur to use 2x3 aspect, others may be proud for taking landscapes handheld instead of using a tripod etc. But if those others do this or that and the image is great, I enjoy it. Period.

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rabanito

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2021, 06:02:58 pm »

Then why are you showing it to someone else?  Obviously, you're looking for "attaboys".   
Well no.
If I let you listen to some music I like, I'm not looking for attaboys.
If I call you to see some passing beauty you didn't see or to look at shooting stars you weren't aware of or bring you to a restaurant I enjoy eating in I am not looking for "attaboys". I'm sharing with you something I appreciate.
It's, say, kind of "friendship".
If you liked the girl, you were in awe of the stars or enjoyed the meal, I'll  be happy, we have something in common.
And that's good.
If you don't, then we see things differently. Nothing wrong with that.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2021, 06:49:25 pm »

... I remember many years ago while I was having some coffee with the person in charge of one famous gallery a couple came to us and asked the price of one Jean-Loup Sieff print being exhibited.

The answer was
"xy $" (well it was a different currency)
"Ah good!" said the man. "And limited to how many copies ?"
"Unlimited"
"Ah, no! In that case it's too expensive!"

OMG  ::)

What's the OMG for?

That was a perfectly legitimate reaction of the potential buyers.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2021, 06:55:48 pm »

Real photographers are fighting a losing battle against armchair "artists."

To qualify that Photoshop ad for the new feature (sky replacement): only less than 16% of Photoshop users are photographers. The vast majority are all kind of illustrators and graphic designers. So, if you are a real photographer, that feature is not really meant for you.

P.S. As Roger explained, for real estate photographers, it is a different thing.

Alan Klein

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2021, 07:01:53 pm »

Not what I mean.
I do photography MY way.
I like to go out freezing and capturing something I saw and interpreting it (or trying to) as I felt it at the moment.

I take this discussion in a more general way. I personally don't change skies, I don't use very slow speeds while photographing running water for an effect I didn't "see" in nature and so on.
For some people it's a point d'honneur to use 2x3 aspect, others may be proud for taking landscapes handheld instead of using a tripod etc. But if those others do this or that and the image is great, I enjoy it. Period.


Why don't you post your photos so we can see them.  I bet they're great.  I post mine.  Especially the ones I've edited.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 07:06:45 pm by Alan Klein »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Changing Skies - Opinions
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2021, 07:05:07 pm »

To qualify that Photoshop ad for the new feature (sky replacement): only less than 16% of Photoshop users are photographers. The vast majority are all kind of illustrators and graphic designers. So, if you are a real photographer, that feature is not really meant for you.

P.S. As Roger explained, for real estate photographers, it is a different thing.
I've noticed that McDonald's Big Mac hamburgers I buy never look as good as they do on TV.  The ones on TV probably taste better too.  :)
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