Epson P9570 Platen Gap Question

[wsegar]

Now for the longest time, I was ALSO reading that the 10/20000 had two heads, and someone stated, they don't have TWO (2) physical heads; but two ROWS (or more) of nozzles.

If this is correct than those rows of nozzles are PERMANENTLY fixed 'double head' reads as two physical heads that have to be aligned to each other.

Which is it?

It's pretty standard to print out 3 or 4 feet and measure the length of the print. Any difference, be it positive or negative, is the correction value, that has to be entered somewhere.  (The overall length of the Print is scaled (up/down to account for he difference, so that the length of the adjusted (scaled) print equals the length of what you sent/intended)

example. Print 4 a foot box or ruler (intended size), measure the distance from top to bottom. Let's say it measures 47.4" (actual size). That jobs LENGTH needs  to be scaled 101.267% to compensate (Feed Adjustment)

Do it in your file, the driver, a Rip; but makes sure you do it. It has to be done [if accuracy of the length is desired].

Hi Arobinson thank you for your reply I am starting to understand this since I have not gotten into this problem before of out of focuses on any previous printer.

The paper cut is 44x56.5 I center the print on that cut which is 34 x 45.33 centered on the cut

the canson lustre rc in the printed  feed direction came out to 45.25 (short of 45.33) it looks very sharp in focus. The paper cut came out perfect to 56.5 ( this is standard paper like epson luster 260 pretty much.

the hahnemuhle fine art baryta in the printed  feed direction came out to 44 7/8   (shorter than the 45.33)  very out of focus. The paper cut came out short to 45.5/16 so 3/16 short

I am using colorbyte image print rip latest version for the 7570 I see there is a feed adjustment from -100 to 150 its set to 0.  the custom paper setting in the printer can do -1.00 to 1.53 so I figure the rip overtakes the custom paper setting ? and not sure how to calculate.


This is what COLORBYTE RIP says

""""Media Feed Adjustment
Many printers also allow for custom adjust- ments to the paper feed controls in addition to the Media Type selection. This is an advanced feature, and should only be used for those willing to experiment to achieve the best results, or who are trying to solve a specific problem with banding or paper feed issues. In most cases, it is unnecessary to adjust this control."""""

Not sure how to calculate do you feed the info into the printer paper settings or rip for the feder adjustment ? How did you do the math to calculate get the job length.

Thank you and much for the info and appreciated for your help Arobinson

[wsegar]

Paper weight has not a direct relation to paper thickness , at least for fine art papers.
It is about the head clearance relative to the paper surface of the paper being fed over the platen.
Fine art mat papers tend to swell a bit when becoming wet by the ink, specially in dark areas(lots of ink).
Resin papers do not show that swelling. Fine art gloss papers alsook or little swelling.
Also as the platen is not a flat plate but has suction chambers, thus ‘ridges’ in between. The paper will not be flat on the platen, also the paper itself is not flat when coming from a roll, or sheets may not be flat either. With cotton based Fine art papers , because they get a bit soft due to the ink liquid absorbed, these ridges can create slight but visible marks In the paper in the feed length.
What also occurs that the paper when heavily inked begins to warp a bit, because the paper expands a bit. This can start already when still ‘under’ the head.
So , to prevent the head from scraping the paper surface, yet not to strong platen suction to prevent marking or slight deformation of being sucked a bit into the platen chambers, the combination of platen gap and platen suction given a type of paper needs to be determined and set accordingly.
The feed is influenced by these settings (friction) so an feed check and adjustment is needed.
Lastly, the resulting head clearance has an effect on the head alignment. (Accuracy of dot placement) So once set you need to do a head alignment.
With the double head systems this is far more critical.

Hi JR ,"So once set you need to do a head alignment."
I talked to epson support about this and they told me you only do head alignment on like 3 of there papers and the machine compensates depending on your settings like epson glossy media 260. I had an Epson  Tec in here and he dint really answer my question since he is to new on these machines. I believe you are correct you need to do a head alignment since you are messing with platen suction ext... It is frustrating with epson tec support.

By the way the latest firmware is not on the epson support website which is LL09K9,  the new firmware was given to me by the tec fixing the printer (LL01KA) I called epson and the first tec told me no the latest was on the website, after I called again and that tec told me the firmware on the website is not the latest but the one  the tec installed in my studio is, FYI this phone call I had yesterday.

[BrianWJH]

Now for the longest time, I was ALSO reading that the 10/20000 had two heads, and someone stated, they don't have TWO (2) physical heads; but two ROWS (or more) of nozzles.

If this is correct than those rows of nozzles are PERMANENTLY fixed 'double head' reads as two physical heads that have to be aligned to each other.

Which is it?

It's as per this image:

[tharrington]

Hi Wsegar-
I don't have as much experience as some of these other users but wanted to chime in with a couple of thoughts in case they help.  Have you noticed a size cutoff for when the print gets blurry?  In other words, have you tried any sizes in between the slices and your full size print?  I ask as I have been using several heavy papers recently (like Hahnemhule FB) for 40x40's with 2 inch borders and have not had any issues with blurry images. Also, I use Qimage One, which is obviously not as capable as what you are using, but since it is different I thought I should mention it.  I guess I'd like to find the easiest solution for you as possible even though I guess this shouldn't matter.  Finally, with your paper feed problem... I have started to feed the paper further down (much more so than when it beeps).  I essentially go all the way down until the paper hits the stop, and then pull back slightly.  This has given me many more successful loads. 

I am using colorbyte image print rip latest version for the 7570 I see there is a feed adjustment from -100 to 150 its set to 0

[JRSmit]

Hi Arobinson thank you for your reply I am starting to understand this since I have not gotten into this problem before of out of focuses on any previous printer.

The paper cut is 44x56.5 I center the print on that cut which is 34 x 45.33 centered on the cut

the canson lustre rc in the printed  feed direction came out to 45.25 (short of 45.33) it looks very sharp in focus. The paper cut came out perfect to 56.5 ( this is standard paper like epson luster 260 pretty much.

the hahnemuhle fine art baryta in the printed  feed direction came out to 44 7/8   (shorter than the 45.33)  very out of focus. The paper cut came out short to 45.5/16 so 3/16 short

I am using colorbyte image print rip latest version for the 7570 I see there is a feed adjustment from -100 to 150 its set to 0.  the custom paper setting in the printer can do -1.00 to 1.53 so I figure the rip overtakes the custom paper setting ? and not sure how to calculate.


This is what COLORBYTE RIP says

""""Media Feed Adjustment
Many printers also allow for custom adjust- ments to the paper feed controls in addition to the Media Type selection. This is an advanced feature, and should only be used for those willing to experiment to achieve the best results, or who are trying to solve a specific problem with banding or paper feed issues. In most cases, it is unnecessary to adjust this control."""""

Not sure how to calculate do you feed the info into the printer paper settings or rip for the feder adjustment ? How did you do the math to calculate get the job length.

Thank you and much for the info and appreciated for your help Arobinson

The RIP or whatever good quality print software you use has an option to set the feed offset or feed adjustment.


That option is your option to correct the feed, as you come short, you need a plus value, probably +20 or more.
( you can also do that on the printer with custom media, of via Epson Media Installer, which is an application to manage custom media on your printer)
The best way to determine is to print a file of known height (its dimension in the feed direction) and measure that dimension on print. Then calculate from there.
Be aware that the first 2 inches or so of the print is in feed direction not very accurate.

I use a testfile with a height of 150mm and that gives a reasonably good indication of the feed accuracy as a starter. On that testfile i have 2 lines of 100mm, one from the top and one from the bottom. I measure different lengths. The one from the bottom is more in line with the overall height of the testfile.
The 100mm make a initial setting calculation easy, if it is 0.2mm off, it means a feed offset of 20, but it is just an initial correction value.

Then on practically each print job, i do measurements in feed direction, as when the roll gets unwound more and more, the curl is stronger, thus more friction, thus more feed adjustment needed.

Note that The feed adjustment needed can be quite different for different papers. And sheet or roll can also give different feed adjustement values.

I keep a log on each paper type i offer (that are many ;-)), so when i load a paper to print, i look up in the log what feed adjustment (and other settings, as i use custom media on my printer).

The note from ColorByte is in my opinion way off from reality.

With the 95xx on thicker/stiffer papers like fineart baryta i did go to a suction of +2 or +3, to keep it flat on the platen (if not flat on platen you can get a message on the console: "meandering paper" or something in that sense. Which means it is sort of floating a bit from left to right over the platen. Also the head-clearance can vary.

[JRSmit]

Hi JR ,"So once set you need to do a head alignment."
I talked to epson support about this and they told me you only do head alignment on like 3 of there papers and the machine compensates depending on your settings like epson glossy media 260. I had an Epson  Tec in here and he dint really answer my question since he is to new on these machines. I believe you are correct you need to do a head alignment since you are messing with platen suction ext... It is frustrating with epson tec support.

By the way the latest firmware is not on the epson support website which is LL09K9,  the new firmware was given to me by the tec fixing the printer (LL01KA) I called epson and the first tec told me no the latest was on the website, after I called again and that tec told me the firmware on the website is not the latest but the one  the tec installed in my studio is, FYI this phone call I had yesterday.

The epson staff will only tell you something about Epson branded papers, that is company rule. So in your case of little value.
In my experience firmware will do little if any with feed adjustments.
See my other post on feed adjustment.

[wsegar]

Hi Wsegar-
I don't have as much experience as some of these other users but wanted to chime in with a couple of thoughts in case they help.  Have you noticed a size cutoff for when the print gets blurry?  In other words, have you tried any sizes in between the slices and your full size print?  I ask as I have been using several heavy papers recently (like Hahnemhule FB) for 40x40's with 2 inch borders and have not had any issues with blurry images. Also, I use Qimage One, which is obviously not as capable as what you are using, but since it is different I thought I should mention it.  I guess I'd like to find the easiest solution for you as possible even though I guess this shouldn't matter.  Finally, with your paper feed problem... I have started to feed the paper further down (much more so than when it beeps).  I essentially go all the way down until the paper hits the stop, and then pull back slightly.  This has given me many more successful loads. 

I am using colorbyte image print rip latest version for the 7570 I see there is a feed adjustment from -100 to 150 its set to 0

Hi tharrington thanks for the reply and your advice will definitely "I essentially go all the way down until the paper hits the stop, and then pull back slightly.  This has given me many more successful loads. " do this smart move thanks a mil letting me know.

Your paper you use (Hahnemhule FB 350 gsm) is thicker than mine (Hahnemhule FA Barita gsm 325) , do you know if the paper you use is less stiff on the roll ?

"Have you noticed a size cutoff for when the print gets blurry?" The paper cut came out short to 56.5/16 so 3/16 short of the supodsid 56.5 but I must be even shorter since I have it set top margin 3mm and bottom margin 3mm , so 6mm on top of the 3/16

No  I have no tried a shorter version of the print , I will try today see what happens and report back , thank you so much for the help, did you red my part about the new firmware on a different post below this original one of yours.

Thanks

[tharrington]

Your paper you use (Hahnemhule FB 350 gsm) is thicker than mine (Hahnemhule FA Barita gsm 325) , do you know if the paper you use is less stiff on the roll?
A: This paper is really stiff.  As a matter of fact, I just chatted with some else about this... with my platen gap set to 2.4 and suction at 3, I still advance the paper after it is loaded so that the edge of the paper creeps just below the metal crossbar (where the plastic clips hang).  Assuming I cut in between prints, I will repeat this procedure.

No  I have no tried a shorter version of the print , I will try today see what happens and report back , thank you so much for the help, did you red my part about the new firmware on a different post below this original one of yours.
A: I'm on LL01KA... the Epson Software Updater notified me of firmware upgrade maybe 2 weeks ago.  I remember checking the Epson website at the time of update and an older version was still listed.

Thanks

[wsegar]

The RIP or whatever good quality print software you use has an option to set the feed offset or feed adjustment.


That option is your option to correct the feed, as you come short, you need a plus value, probably +20 or more.
( you can also do that on the printer with custom media, of via Epson Media Installer, which is an application to manage custom media on your printer)
The best way to determine is to print a file of known height (its dimension in the feed direction) and measure that dimension on print. Then calculate from there.
Be aware that the first 2 inches or so of the print is in feed direction not very accurate.

I use a testfile with a height of 150mm and that gives a reasonably good indication of the feed accuracy as a starter. On that testfile i have 2 lines of 100mm, one from the top and one from the bottom. I measure different lengths. The one from the bottom is more in line with the overall height of the testfile.
The 100mm make a initial setting calculation easy, if it is 0.2mm off, it means a feed offset of 20, but it is just an initial correction value.

Then on practically each print job, i do measurements in feed direction, as when the roll gets unwound more and more, the curl is stronger, thus more friction, thus more feed adjustment needed.

Note that The feed adjustment needed can be quite different for different papers. And sheet or roll can also give different feed adjustement values.

I keep a log on each paper type i offer (that are many ;-)), so when i load a paper to print, i look up in the log what feed adjustment (and other settings, as i use custom media on my printer).

The note from ColorByte is in my opinion way off from reality.

With the 95xx on thicker/stiffer papers like fineart baryta i did go to a suction of +2 or +3, to keep it flat on the platen (if not flat on platen you can get a message on the console: "meandering paper" or something in that sense. Which means it is sort of floating a bit from left to right over the platen. Also the head-clearance can vary.

Hi JR

Thanks so much for all the info very helpful and thanks to you I ran into this setting tab "Length Accuracy First"

1. I was about o do what you suggested when

-----"I use a testfile with a height of 150mm and that gives a reasonably good indication of the feed accuracy as a starter. On that testfile i have 2 lines of 100mm, one from the top and one from the bottom. I measure different lengths. The one from the bottom is more in line with the overall height of the testfile.
The 100mm make a initial setting calculation easy, if it is 0.2mm off, it means a feed offset of 20, but it is just an initial correction value." ----

when you choose your paper set up and select the paper on the printer screen it opens up a menu with a few options such us advance paper settings and right next to it is print adjustment you press that tab and it opens up Print Head Alignmentand Paper Feed Adjust.you press that tab and it gives you two options

• QualityFirst:prints adjustment patterns to adjust the feed for image quality.Epson recommends running this option first.

And this second option below (which I printed out) which basically if I understand correctly does the same thing you were explaining to me to do and you input the mm that it is off. It print out two lines  about 500mm apart the width of your paper and the ask you to input if its short or long on mm, the print out.
• Length Accuracy First:prints measurement positions to adjust the feed for images that require more precise dimensions and length
    Note: You will need a 24-inch (610 mm) ruler that can measure in 0.5 mm increments to perform the adjustment. THIS MIGHT BE SOMETHING NEW ? that they added.

I have no tried it out jet, just ordered a MM .5 increment ruler and plan to do it on the weekend with the fine art Baryta.

My question which (I will call epson) ,if that setting is set for that custom paper setting, or for overall papers no mater what custom paper setting you inputed , and every time you put a paper in you have to recalibrate the feed adjustment ? would be cool if you could keep it to that particular paper type.

My second question there are basically 2 calibrations
1. head alignment (uni-d and by-d after you figure platten gap for the particular paper and suction
2. and the paper feed adjust "quality first or length accuracy first'

what order should you do these ? I will call epson on that to see if there tec can answer.

Once again thank you so much for your help I am learning quite a bit , especially over the years I stayed to the thinner papers so never got into these problems.

   

[wsegar]

Your paper you use (Hahnemhule FB 350 gsm) is thicker than mine (Hahnemhule FA Barita gsm 325) , do you know if the paper you use is less stiff on the roll?
A: This paper is really stiff.  As a matter of fact, I just chatted with some else about this... with my platen gap set to 2.4 and suction at 3, I still advance the paper after it is loaded so that the edge of the paper creeps just below the metal crossbar (where the plastic clips hang).  Assuming I cut in between prints, I will repeat this procedure.   

No  I have no tried a shorter version of the print , I will try today see what happens and report back , thank you so much for the help, did you red my part about the new firmware on a different post below this original one of yours.
A: I'm on LL01KA... the Epson Software Updater notified me of firmware upgrade maybe 2 weeks ago.  I remember checking the Epson website at the time of update and an older version was still listed.

Thanks

Hi tharrington
Thans for the tips
As off right now I found platten 2.1 + suction 2 works the trick with the "I still advance the paper after it is loaded so that the edge of the paper creeps just below the metal crossbar" that I can see that helping a lot. Also there is a second platten gap under paper source settings- platten gap offset-   which lets you pick- normal- wide - widest
 I set mine to wide  do you use this?
Also do you do head alignment once you figured out the platten gaps and suction ?

Thanks a mill
Werner

[Gerd_Peters]

......My question which (I will call epson) ,if that setting is set for that custom paper setting, or for overall papers no mater what custom paper setting you inputed , and every time you put a paper in you have to recalibrate the feed adjustment ? would be cool if you could keep it to that particular paper type.

My second question there are basically 2 calibrations
1. head alignment (uni-d and by-d after you figure platten gap for the particular paper and suction
2. and the paper feed adjust "quality first or length accuracy first'
....... 

Hello Wsegar,

I am very interested in what Epson says where these settings are stored. Especially if they can be stored in the printer under a paper preset and recalled from there. The whole thing has another dimension for me. Since I work with RIP's - and don't always use the Epson drivers - depending on the RIP I don't have such settings available. But I can always specify the media user settings in the printer and use them together with a RIP.

I would be happy if you would report about this here.

Greeting Gerd

[wsegar]

Hello Wsegar,

I am very interested in what Epson says where these settings are stored. Especially if they can be stored in the printer under a paper preset and recalled from there. The whole thing has another dimension for me. Since I work with RIP's - and don't always use the Epson drivers - depending on the RIP I don't have such settings available. But I can always specify the media user settings in the printer and use them together with a RIP.

I would be happy if you would report about this here.

Greeting Gerd

Hi Gers called epson today , I specifically asked them about the  custom paper preset setting under print adjustment , they say both print head alignment and paper feed adjust get stored for that custom paper setting ( the tech did not know that at the moment , but he took 10 minutes while on hold to get back to me while he found out this information, but he says that does get stored in your custom paper preset). Which to me is really great .

I believe that is the answer to your question if I understood correctly.

[Gerd_Peters]

Hello Wsegar,

my primary question was "where" the printhead alignment is stored correctly. So e.g. in the printer directly (perhaps per media preset) or in a config file on the computer.

But thank you very much for your effort.

Greetings Gerd

[JRSmit]

Hello Wsegar,

my primary question was "where" the printhead alignment is stored correctly. So e.g. in the printer directly (perhaps per media preset) or in a config file on the computer.

But thank you very much for your effort.

Greetings Gerd

According to the sparse documentation, it is stored in the rom on the printer.

[Gerd_Peters]

Thanks for the information. In the ROM it sounds as if the setting is stored globally and applies globally. So probably not per media set.

Unfortunately, the documentation is really thin in some places. BUT they have not yet fallen to the level of XRITE ....

Greetings Gerd

[George Marinos]

Hi Gers called epson today , I specifically asked them about the  custom paper preset setting under print adjustment , they say both print head alignment and paper feed adjust get stored for that custom paper setting ( the tech did not know that at the moment , but he took 10 minutes while on hold to get back to me while he found out this information, but he says that does get stored in your custom paper preset). Which to me is really great .

I believe that is the answer to your question if I understood correctly.

How accurate can be this knowing that some of the stuff at epson are not informed so good?

By the way is it somebody who has successfully print on glossy Fine Art Hahnemuehle papers like FineArt Baryta, PhotoRag Baryta etc with 9570
and can report how the quality is? i read only problems about those papers until now.

[Gerd_Peters]

I can't comment on that yet. The Epson SC P9500 delivery is about 6 weeks behind schedule here in Germany. I hope something happens this year ...

Greetings Gerd

[tharrington]

How accurate can be this knowing that some of the stuff at epson are not informed so good?

By the way is it somebody who has successfully print on glossy Fine Art Hahnemuehle papers like FineArt Baryta, PhotoRag Baryta etc with 9570
and can report how the quality is? i read only problems about those papers until now.

I'm not sure if you saw one of my previous posts in this thread but the Hahnemuhle Glossy Fine Art FB paper is fantastic on the 9570.  I did run the head calibration and paper feed customization to improve results.  BC's River Stone Satin Rag, Ilford Gallerie Gold Fibre Gloss, Canson Photographique II are also really good as well.  Some of these were recommended by others on here.  As I am sure you know though, this is a pretty subjective area.  The only one I haven't liked very much is Hahn Photo Gloss Baryta. 

Also, going back to the original question I asked, I did see that once a paper is set up you can run a print (I ran a simple nozzle check) and then go under "Status" on the print control panel (this is the bottom menu item) and look for "Platen Gap Value for Last Print Job".  This will give you the platen gap value when the paper is set to auto adjust.

[George Marinos]

The only one I haven't liked very much is Hahn Photo Gloss Baryta
[/quote]
Can you describe what you didn't like on the paper?

[tharrington]

The only one I haven't liked very much is Hahn Photo Gloss Baryta
Can you describe what you didn't like on the paper?

Answer: I'm not crazy about the way dark images tend to reverse out (almost like a solarized print)... particularly if it is not a smooth transition out of a shadow.  To me it is most objectionable when viewing the print at an angle.  The overcoat helps somewhat, but not enough.  I regularly print darker images so my assessment is based with that in mind.  Although it is harder to see in a picture, the attachment shows areas of lighter than shadow trees that appear to solarize.  There may be a better way to describe it, but this is what I'm reminded of when I see it.