Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Alan Klein]

Yes, the "printing" surely contributed to our inflation. But what was the alternative? Millions losing their homes and going hungry? Innumerable businesses going under? It could have been a real disaster, but the cash infusions did a pretty good job of keeping things relatively stable and preventing a lot of misery. Some modest inflation seems a small price to pay. I too am retired and do not like to see my dollars shrink in value, but I am not so attached to my own comfort and ease that I think that gov't monetary policy should be designed for my benefit.

The problem is the the poor and lower income are the ones most hurt by inflation and higher prices.  We don't know if it's going to be modest.  Chair Powell has acknowledged it's not temporary.  The 70's and early 80's saw a reduction of 55% of the value of the dollar.  businesses did go under because of government policies.  The problem was made worse by previous goverment;s deficit spending and printing. 

[LesPalenik]

Elon Musk thinks that Biden's huge Build Back Better spending bill is a mistake and not needed. The current debt of over $28 trillion, is now $7 trillion larger than just three years ago. Even if they imposed extra taxes on all billionaires in US, that wouldn't make a dent in the national debt. Better to use a Delete button and stop further spending.

Elon Musk criticized new incentives and infrastructure for electric vehicles in a huge spending bill backed by Joe Biden, saying he would “delete” the measures and even ditch the entire legislation if he had the power.

Musk pointed out that Tesla has been selling its electric cars for more than a year in the US without the $7,500 federal tax credit, without taking a demand hit. Most other automakers, save for General Motors, are still eligible for the credit.

Musk, the multibillionaire founder of the electric car company Tesla, said that if he were in charge of the federal government “I would just can this whole bill. That’s my recommendation.” The spending includes significant incentives for Americans to leave behind polluting vehicles and opt instead to go electric, including a tax rebate that will offer up to $12,500 to anyone buying a zero emissions car. There is also funding towards the president’s goal of building out 500,000 new electric car charging stations across the US.

Musk also said he doesn’t believe the US government should be giving out subsidies to expand charging infrastructure — though that provision is in the infrastructure bill that Biden already signed into law. “Do we need support for gas stations? We don’t. So there’s no need for this, I would delete it. Delete.” Musk said.

Tesla currently operates more than 3,000 charging stations with around 30,000 connectors worldwide, but plans to open that network to other electric vehicles sometime in the near future.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/6/22821532/elon-musk-biden-infrastructure-government-subsidies

[Alan Klein]

Elon Musk thinks that Biden's huge Build Back Better spending bill is a mistake and not needed. The current debt of over $28 trillion, is now $7 trillion larger than just three years ago. Even if they imposed extra taxes on all billionaires in US, that wouldn't make a dent in the national debt. Better to use a Delete button and stop further spending.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/6/22821532/elon-musk-biden-infrastructure-government-subsidies

Well in fairness to GM, Musk already used Tesla's allotment of rebates, unless they're new ones in the new bill.  So Musk's recommending the government drop all rebates would only punish GM and other Tesla competitors.

PS:  The US debt just passed $29 trillion.  Congress just raised the debt ceiling to $31.5 trillion.  The Fed even with Chairman Powell moving up the reduction in printing, will still print about another $330 billion or so, or about $1000 per American until it stops around March.  Of course, that's his promise to cut.  I wouldn't hold my breath.  When he raises interest rates after that, the economy and market will tank.  He'll probably reverse himself as Democrats eye the upcoming midterm elections and complain to him.  I'm sure, Biden will give him a call.  After all, it was Biden who extended his term for another four years.  He owes them.

[Robert Roaldi]

Elon Musk thinks that Biden's huge Build Back Better spending bill is a mistake and not needed. The current debt of over $28 trillion, is now $7 trillion larger than just three years ago. Even if they imposed extra taxes on all billionaires in US, that wouldn't make a dent in the national debt. Better to use a Delete button and stop further spending.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/6/22821532/elon-musk-biden-infrastructure-government-subsidies

That's nice, but why should we care what Musk thinks. If the country doesn't spend money on infrastructure roads and bridges, not many people will bother buying Teslas. Why buy a car if there's nowhere to drive it. I would not be surprised if he was against public transit and passenger train spending too. He's just some guy who got rich, he's not the messiah. To the ultra-rich all public services seem like a waste of money. That's why, in our wisdom, they only get one vote each, just like everyone else. History has taught us that much, I'd have hoped.

[Alan Klein]

That's nice, but why should we care what Musk thinks. If the country doesn't spend money on infrastructure roads and bridges, not many people will bother buying Teslas. Why buy a car if there's nowhere to drive it. I would not be surprised if he was against public transit and passenger train spending too. He's just some guy who got rich, he's not the messiah. To the ultra-rich all public services seem like a waste of money. That's why, in our wisdom, they only get one vote each, just like everyone else. History has taught us that much, I'd have hoped.

Rob, I realize you're being hyperbolic and probably haven't been to the USA lately, but America still has a few functioning roads and bridges.  We aren't all riding around in 4-wheel Jeeps, electric or fossil-fueled fired. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Rob, I realize you're being hyperbolic and probably haven't been to the USA lately, but America still has a few functioning roads and bridges.  We aren't all riding around in 4-wheel Jeeps, electric or fossil-fueled fired. 

Of course, but how do you think they got there? Musk didn't build them.

[LesPalenik]

Well in fairness to GM, Musk already used Tesla's allotment of rebates, unless they're new ones in the new bill.  So Musk's recommending the government drop all rebates would only punish GM and other Tesla competitors.

Not really. The old, original rebate was limited to 200,000 cars per manufacturer. Tesla and GM already sold over 200,000 cars, so they are currently not getting that rebate. Any car manufacturer who is just now starting to sell EVs is still elligible for the same rebate, so it is an even playing field.

The new planned rebate would be a subsidy for all manufacturers - Tesla, GM, Ford, Rivian, Lucid, so all of them would benefit. However, at a time when the EV demand is greater than supply, the subsidy is not needed. If the subsidy goes through, all car manucturers would benefit from it equally and the plan would be footed by all US taxpayers whether they are EV buyers or not.

[Alan Klein]

Of course, but how do you think they got there? Musk didn't build them.

Well, Musk isn't stupid.  He just sold another big amount of Tesla stock before it collapses or democrats raise tax rates on capital gains next year.

Elon Musk’s stock sales could total $18 billion by the end of year
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/14/elon-musks-stock-sales-could-total-18-billion-by-the-end-of-year-.html

[LesPalenik]

Well, Musk isn't stupid.  He just sold another big amount of Tesla stock before it collapses or democrats raise tax rates on capital gains next year.

Elon Musk’s stock sales could total $18 billion by the end of year
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/14/elon-musks-stock-sales-could-total-18-billion-by-the-end-of-year-.html

You are right, Musk isn't stupid, however he had a different reason - the contemplated billionaire tax on unrealized gains.

[Alan Klein]

Not really. The old, original rebate was limited to 200,000 cars per manufacturer. Tesla and GM already sold over 200,000 cars, so they are currently not getting that rebate. Any car manufacturer who is just now starting to sell EVs is still elligible for the same rebate, so it is an even playing field.

The new planned rebate would be a subsidy for all manufacturers - Tesla, GM, Ford, Rivian, Lucid, so all of them would benefit. However, at a time when the EV demand is greater than supply, the subsidy is not needed. If the subsidy goes through, all car manucturers would benefit from it equally and the plan would be footed by all US taxpayers whether they are EV buyers or not.

The idea that some taxpayers who can't afford an EV are subsidizing those who can, is immoral and anti-free markets. 

By the way.  I was watching a Youtube by this guy who owns a Tesla.  He was explaining how difficult it is to get recharged.  And slow.  If you use the regular charge place, it takes one hour of charging to get 15 miles of run power.  That's nuts! You might as well pull a camper and get some sleep while you're charging up.  Also, there are various connectors many that won't work on your car.  SO you'll have to find another charging station if you have enough power left to get there.  The whole charging situation is crazy.  You'll wind up spending your whole life looking for charging stations and the time you need to charge up.

Here’s Why Charging an Electric Car Can Suck - And It’s Not The Reason You Think!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMBdpXGwVlY

How Miserable Is A Tesla Road Trip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC95WACQhCY

[LesPalenik]

That's nice, but why should we care what Musk thinks. If the country doesn't spend money on infrastructure roads and bridges, not many people will bother buying Teslas. Why buy a car if there's nowhere to drive it. I would not be surprised if he was against public transit and passenger train spending too. He's just some guy who got rich, he's not the messiah. To the ultra-rich all public services seem like a waste of money. That's why, in our wisdom, they only get one vote each, just like everyone else. History has taught us that much, I'd have hoped.

You should have watched the WSJ interview. Musk was not against the infrastructure, only against the tax rebates for car manufacturers. But once he started to criticize the wasteful plan of US government in that regard, he mentioned the general incompetency and irresponsibility of the government.

[Alan Klein]

You are right, Musk isn't stupid, however he had a different reason - the contemplated billionaire tax on unrealized gains.

I don't think that's constitutional.  It's more likely that there would be a change to realized capital gains tax which I believe is at 15%.  The Dems want to increase it to at least 25%.  That's $100 million in additional taxes Musk would have to pay for every $Billion he sells.  Or $1.8 billion in additional taxes of the $18 billion he already sold.

Then add state tax.  Did he move to no state tax Texas? 

[LesPalenik]

The idea that some taxpayers who can't afford an EV are subsidizing those who can, is immoral and anti-free markets. 

By the way.  I was watching a Youtube by this guy who owns a Tesla.  He was explaining how difficult it is to get recharged.  And slow.  If you use the regular charge place, it takes one hour of charging to get 15 miles of run power.  That's nuts! You might as well pull a camper and get some sleep while you're charging up.  Also, there are various connectors many that won't work on your car.  SO you'll have to find another charging station if you have enough power left to get there.  The whole charging situation is crazy.  You'll wind up spending your whole life looking for charging stations and the time you need to charge up.

Here’s Why Charging an Electric Car Can Suck - And It’s Not The Reason You Think!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMBdpXGwVlY

That guy is stupid or clueless if he expects a fast charging with a 120V charger. Charging with a regular AC 120V plug is acceptable if you charge the car in your garage for your next day commute to work. Even so, most EV owners install 240V adapters for their home charging. I would have expected that as an electrical engineer you know about Amperes and Volts.

Tesla and many other car manufacturers use 3 levels for chargers - Level 1 (120 volt) charging · Level 2 (240 volt) charging · Level 3 (480 volt) Supercharging or DC fast charging.
DC fast charging is capable of charging to 80% the electric vehicle's battery in less than 20 minutes for most cars. The latest chargers work with 800V and they charge really fast.

[LesPalenik]

I don't think that's constitutional.  It's more likely that there would be a change to realized capital gains tax which I believe is at 15%.  The Dems want to increase it to at least 25%.  That's $100 million in additional taxes Musk would have to pay for every $Billion he sells.  Or $1.8 billion in additional taxes of the $18 billion he already sold.

Then add state tax.  Did he move to no state tax Texas?

That's one of the tax proposals. Apparently, several other billionaires sold a portion of their portfolio recently, before the tax looming increase. The tax on unrealized gain was proposed after, I'm not sure now by whom, maybe by Bernie.

[Alan Klein]

That guy is stupid or clueless if he expects a fast charging with a 120V charger. Charging with a regular AC 120V plug is acceptable if you charge the car in your garage for your next day commute to work. Even so, most EV owners install 240V adapters for their home charging. I would have expected that as an electrical engineer you know about Amperes and Volts.

Tesla and many other car manufacturers use 3 levels for chargers - Level 1 (120 volt) charging · Level 2 (240 volt) charging · Level 3 (480 volt) Supercharging or DC fast charging.
DC fast charging is capable of charging to 80% the electric vehicle's battery in less than 20 minutes for most cars. The latest chargers work with 800V and they charge really fast.

The video does review the three different methods.

Some people don't have 240v available at their homes, only 120v.  Of course, most people don't have homes but rather apartments.  So charging at home isn't possible unless the landlord provides a charging station.   The guy shows different situations like that. Of course, as EV use increases, standing in line waiting for a charge station will become a bigger problem.  Tesla quick charge is great.  But there aren't that many around if you're on a trip. 

I see an EV as a second car reserved for local driving or commuting to work and charging every night at home.  It's just too much of a headache and time waster otherwise.   I think a combo gas/electric like a Prius is more convenient and practical.

[LesPalenik]

The video does review the three different methods.

Some people don't have 240v available at their homes, only 120v.  Of course, most people don't have homes but rather apartments.  So charging at home isn't possible unless the landlord provides a charging station.   The guy shows different situations like that. Of course, as EV use increases, standing in line waiting for a charge station will become a bigger problem.  Tesla quick charge is great.  But there aren't that many around if you're on a trip. 

I see an EV as a second car reserved for local driving or commuting to work and charging every night at home.  It's just too much of a headache and time waster otherwise.   I think a combo gas/electric like a Prius is more convenient and practical.

1. In USA alone, there are now over 30,000 Tesla Superchargers and more are added every month.
2. Prius and hybrid car concept was a great idea, and it is still a good solution for some drivers, but a hybrid car defeats two main reasons for switching to an EV.
    a) lower operational costs (electricity is cheaper than gasoline)
    b) lower maintenance costs (no oil and filter changes, no fuel pump, no belts, no exhaust, no catalytic converter, no starter, etc).

[Peter McLennan]

And brakes that last forever.  One-pedal driving.

[Robert Roaldi]

The idea that some taxpayers who can't afford an EV are subsidizing those who can, is immoral and anti-free markets. 
...

So you've come around to my way of thinking regarding giving tax concessions to corporations to relocate.

What about air traffic control? Should taxpayers subsidize the minority of people who fly?

There's no bottom to this rabbit hole.

[LesPalenik]

Well, Musk isn't stupid.  He just sold another big amount of Tesla stock before it collapses or democrats raise tax rates on capital gains next year.

Elon Musk’s stock sales could total $18 billion by the end of year
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/14/elon-musks-stock-sales-could-total-18-billion-by-the-end-of-year-.html

Musk was very transparent with his plan to sell 10% of his Tesla stock. He even asked his Twitter followers whether he should sell or not (58% of the survey voters told him to go ahead with the sale). And when Bernie Sanders tweeted  a demand that “the extremely wealthy pay their fair share”, Musk dutifully replied that he can sell more if Bernie wants - "just say the word". His tax rate on the $18 billions is 54%, so he is the greatest US taxpayer in this year and Biden can now build a few bridges with that money. Actually, in many cases it would be more effective and cheaper to contract the Boring Company to build tunnels than to build old-style bridges.

Ironically, he didn't reduce his Tesla holding, because he has exercised also his stock options, so now he owns more Tesla shares than before the whole circus started.

[Alan Klein]

54%? Shouldn't it be 15%? Capital gains.