Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[TechTalk]

We really need the web open to all opinions.

It already is. You post your repetitive rants here for instance. You can also start your own platform with your own content guidelines and your own rules. There are lots of them.

You parrot rightwing cries of censorship while understanding nothing about the subject.

Competition is good although I suspect Trump started his as a vehicle for his own political ambitions.

I suspect Trump started his as a vehicle for his own political ambitions ego building. He's pathologically insecure and has a very fragile ego requiring constant attention and praise.

[TechTalk]

When America owned the world auto market

America never owned the world auto market.

[TechTalk]

His disloyalty in flipping party affiliation the way he did is why he's called a RINO.

His disloyalty in flipping party affiliation the way he did is an example of putting loyalty to your country and personal moral values above party.

The biggest RINO today is the Republican Party which has abandoned its traditions to become a cult of authoritarian personality worship and group grievance therapy. Welcome to the Trumpublican Party folks.

[LesPalenik]

America never owned the world auto market.

Not quite. The 1950s were the pinnacle of American automotive manufacturing and helped shape the United States into an economic superpower (from Wikipedia)
In 1950s, GM alone made over half of the cars on America’s roads. In 2020, GM owned just 17% of the automotive US market share. Ford had 15% and Chrysler about 12% of the market share.

What went wrong?
GM’s corporate structure, which Sloan called “decentralized operations with coordinated control,” worked well as long as GM dominated the industry. But decentralization created a dozen internal fiefdoms and enormous inefficiencies, and as competition, especially from Japan’s Toyota, increased, GM was unable to adapt. One division’s cars often cannibalized the sales of other divisions. Its in-house parts companies overcharged the various car divisions, which were barred from seeking lower prices from outsiders. And the various divisions resisted consolidating back-office operations such as purchasing and payroll. GM was also plagued with labor problems—one strike in 1970 took 400,000 workers off the job for 67 days, significantly slowing the entire U.S. economy. The company, which in the 1980s employed more than 800,000 people worldwide, bought labor peace by giving its unions lavish pay and benefits packages that earned it the nickname “Generous Motors.” But those labor contracts crippled the company’s ability to cut costs.

Finance executive Nancy Rottering, who quit in frustration in 1987, said the attitude at headquarters was, “We’re GM. We know everything, we don’t need to change.” Executives were literally walled off from the rest of the company behind the double electronic doors to the 14th floor of GM’s Detroit headquarters. They entered the building through a private basement garage and took their gourmet meals in private dining rooms. They rarely interacted with customers or even their own dealers, who knew firsthand their customers’ likes and dislikes.

https://theweek.com/articles/504619/rise-fall-general-motors

[TechTalk]

America never owned the world auto market.

Not quite. The 1950s were the pinnacle of American automotive manufacturing and helped shape the United States into an economic superpower (from Wikipedia)
In 1950s, GM alone made over half of the cars on America’s roads. In 2020, GM owned just 17% of the automotive US market share. Ford had 15% and Chrysler about 12% of the market share.

Despite what some might wish to believe, America is not the world. There are and have been, since the invention of the automobile, a great many automakers outside of the United States producing cars.

[LesPalenik]

Despite what some might wish to believe, America is not the world. There are and have been, since the invention of the automobile, a great many automakers outside of the United States producing cars.

You are absolutely right, there have been many great car manufacturers in other parts of the world.
What is alarming is the decline of the legacy car makers whether it is in USA, UK or Germany.

General Motors (GM) saw a sharper-than-expected drop in U.S. auto sales for the third quarter, as the chip shortage hit vehicle production and weighed on inventories in dealer lots.

Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) also missed Q3 sales views, while Ford (F) and Stellantis (STLA) beat. Almost all the automakers saw double-digit sales declines for Q3 vs. the year-ago quarter. Only Toyota eked out a gain.

The annualized pace for new vehicle sales in September is set to reach 12.2 million units, according to J.D. Power and LMC Automotive.

That would be down 4 million units from September 2020 and down 4.9 million units from September 2019. Lack of vehicle inventory is severely hampering auto sales, while prices and profits per vehicle are at highs amid strong demand, analysts say.

https://www.investors.com/news/us-auto-sales-gm-q3-sales-drop-third-2022-outlook-worsens/

[TechTalk]

You are absolutely right, there have been many great car manufacturers in other parts of the world.
What is alarming is the decline of the legacy car makers whether it is in USA, UK or Germany.

https://www.investors.com/news/us-auto-sales-gm-q3-sales-drop-third-2022-outlook-worsens/

You can be alarmed for me. I'm more concerned about the decline of the legacy of democracy.

[LesPalenik]

You can be alarmed for me. I'm more concerned about the decline of the legacy of democracy.

And again, I agree with you. That's why I am worried about Biden's lack of judgment when it comes to political appointments.

Another blunder by Biden. Hurting America and Democratic party.
He just appointed a Tesla hater, Qanon conspirator, a corrupt board member of a Swedish Lidar company with a conflict of interest to the boss of NHTSA.

https://www.carscoops.com/2021/10/biden-administration-appoints-tesla-critic-missy-cummings-as-nhtsa-safety-advisor/

watch this video by Sandy Munro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQATlYrOoLU&t=1s

[TechTalk]

You're repeating yourself. Don't bust a cog.

[LesPalenik]

You're repeating yourself. Don't bust a cog.

And I thought that occasional agreeing with you would earn me good points.

[TechTalk]

You're a good guy. I like you. That doesn't mean that I won't point out to you when you look like you're starting to hyperventilate. Think of it as something that a friendly person would bring to your attention.

P.S. I'm not keeping any score, so there aren't any points and no game being played.

[digitaldog]

Neither Twitter nor Facebook practice "truth" only truth as they see it.  We really need the web open to all opinions.  Competition is good although I suspect Trump started his as a vehicle for his own political ambitions.

Another key word for readers: "I suspect" 

Well now for the facts (again) this time directly from Trump world on this new (and 'free' opinion) site:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-s-new-social-platform-welcomes-free-speech-unless-you-n1282051

Former President Donald Trump pitched his new social media platform, Truth Social, as a haven for free speech and a counterweight to the big tech giants that have in recent years put a greater emphasis on moderating content users post to their sites.
But as the platform's terms of service agreement makes clear, not all speech will be permitted. Specifically, users are prohibited from speaking ill of the platform itself or its leadership.

Like father, like son (they are liars):

Trump's eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., said in an interview with Fox News on Wednesday that the new site will be "a platform for everyone to express their feelings."

[James Clark]

And again, I agree with you. That's why I am worried about Biden's lack of judgment when it comes to political appointments.

To be fair, I think a healthy amount of skepticism regarding Tesla's self-driving capability is *extremely* reasonable.  Is she really a QAnon'er though?  That shows a far more profound lack of competence.  As for corporate conflicts, well, yeah, I'm with you but I don't really know how we deal with that.

[digitaldog]

Nine more RINO's or 9 republicans with a backbone and conscience:

The House passed a resolution Thursday finding Trump adviser Steve Bannon in contempt of Congress and asking the Justice Department for criminal prosecution over his refusal to cooperate with an investigation into the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.
The resolution passed largely along party lines in a 229-202 vote. Nine Republicans and every Democrat voted for the measure.

[LesPalenik]

To be fair, I think a healthy amount of skepticism regarding Tesla's self-driving capability is *extremely* reasonable.  Is she really a QAnon'er though?  That shows a far more profound lack of competence.  As for corporate conflicts, well, yeah, I'm with you but I don't really know how we deal with that.

As we know, Tesla uses for their autonomous system purely optical vision rather than a combination of optical and Lidar system that can create occasionally input conflicts. 
Below is Cumming's take on Pure Vision input. That demonstrates aptly her lack of competence on this subject. Taking $400K in compensation from Veoneer, the Lidar manufacturer may explain her bias against systems without a Lidar.

She is a follower of several other Tesla FUDsters and haters - E.W. Niedermeyer, Russ Mitchell, Montana Skeptic, BradMunchen, and other questionable characters on Twitter.

https://www.teslaoracle.com/2021/10/20/tesla-skeptic-missy-cummings-is-appointed-as-a-senior-nhtsa-safety-adviser/

[James Clark]

Nine more RINO's or and 9 republicans with a backbone and conscience:

Ah, but you repeat yourself... 

[James Clark]

As we know, Tesla uses for their autonomous system purely optical vision rather than a combination of optical and Lidar system that can create occasionally input conflicts. 
Below is Cumming's take on Pure Vision input. That demonstrates aptly her lack of competence on this subject. Taking $400K in compensation from Veoneer, the Lidar manufacturer may explain her bias against systems without a Lidar.

She is a follower of several other Tesla FUDsters and haters - E.W. Niedermeyer, Russ Mitchell, Montana Skeptic, BradMunchen, and other questionable characters on Twitter.

https://www.teslaoracle.com/2021/10/20/tesla-skeptic-missy-cummings-is-appointed-as-a-senior-nhtsa-safety-adviser/

It's an interesting discussion that I don't have time for right this moment, but I will say that simply holding the opinion that you highlighted isn't by definition unreasonable with the state of technology today.  Whether that opinion is arrived at honestly may be open for debate.

[LesPalenik]

It's an interesting discussion that I don't have time for right this moment, but I will say that simply holding the opinion that you highlighted isn't by definition unreasonable with the state of technology today.  Whether that opinion is arrived at honestly may be open for debate.

Indeed, there are quite a few current developments which attract different opinions. Many debaters are not aware of the latest discoveries and blindly quote ten year old axioms. There is a lot of relevant information on the latest automotive and industrial breakthroughs on youtube and other platforms dispensed by very knowledgeable people who cover these developments in a timely manner and in a great detail. Here is a short list of the top such channels/youtubers - Tesla Daily, Dr. Knows It All, Munro Live, Now You Know, Warren Redlich, Electric Viking, Electrified, E for Electric. There are many other similar channels with slightly different topics and somewhat less competent reporters.

As to the "not unreasonable opinion on vehicles driving without Lidar", it might be useful to know that Google Waymo which in 2017 developed and started to sell their own brand of Lidar. called "Laser Bear Honeycomb",  has now abandoned and stopped selling this equipment. Google (or Alphabet) spent so far over $3.5B on the Waymo project which has been a total fiasco when compared to other competitors in this field. Meanwhile the Tesla company which initially also used Lidar, found out through extensive in-field experience that their Self Driving system is much more effective using pure vision rather than relying on a mix of different sensors. 

[digitaldog]

Ah, but you repeat yourself... 

Worth repeating (even if it wasn't repeated) 
"Where you see wrong or inequality or injustice, speak out, because this is your country. This is your democracy. Make it. Protect it. Pass it on". -Thurgood Marshall

[Alan Klein]

America never owned the world auto market.

After WWII they did.  In America, most cars sold were American.  The point I made that you ignored was that the auto companies were not that concerned with competition from overseas because of their supremacy.  So their giveaways to the unions could be passed along to auto buyers.

Once overseas competition came to the fore, with their lower labor costs, American companies found themselves behind the eight ball with non-competitive costs and pricing.  So the companies and the UAW auto unions have been bailed out a couple of times by the American taxpayer most recently in 2009 and during the Covid downturn.  Promises by the auto unions to Biden to support him during the election encouraged him to select someone who is not a fan of non-union Tesla.  That's the way things work in the Washington swamp. 
https://www.darrinqualman.com/global-automobile-production/