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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 474944 times)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9360 on: March 24, 2021, 02:53:58 pm »


Here's a great real-time clock that shows debt, expenditures, taxes, on a second by second basis.  Note how much debt each individual ($85,000 when I looked) and the taxpayer ($224,000) has on the nation debt.  Note how much less in taxes we have taken in against federal spending $3.5T vs. $6.7T.  We're spending almost double what we take in taxes.  OF course, the rest has to be borrowed and printed.   It's insane.

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

Very cute. Now find me a clock that shows what would happen if we didn't spend the money on those things.

I think your clock is political. It's distorting the picture by cherry picking numbers. What is it not showing? Who created the clock? Follow the money.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9361 on: March 24, 2021, 02:59:54 pm »

The clock isn't political.  It's not cherry picking statistics.  It also shows similar stats for each of the 50 states and other countries. Note the selection tabs at the top.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9362 on: March 24, 2021, 03:39:58 pm »

In addition to Russia and America having to deal with radical Islam, is the geopolitical threat of China.  Russia could be our ally for that as a nuclear power and being located along China's northern border.  Instead, because of the stupid domestic politics in the USA against Trump for five years, we've driven them to be friends with China.  Now, how dumb is that?

One authoritarian country having common cause with another authoritarian country to oppose pressure and sanctions from democracies. Now, how obvious is that?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 04:30:00 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9363 on: March 24, 2021, 03:47:54 pm »

China, Russia officials meet in show of unity against EU, US
China and Russia were rivals for leadership of the communist world during the Cold War but have built a strong relationship in recent years based on opposition to the U.S.-led liberal order, as well as cooperation in military affairs, technology and trade in natural resources.

https://apnews.com/article/China, Russia officials meet in show of unity against EU, US

Again you don't cite your source, but here is the full paragraph from your selective quote from midway thru the article and the paragraph that follows...

"China and Russia were rivals for leadership of the communist world during the Cold War but have built a strong relationship in recent years based on opposition to the U.S.-led liberal order, as well as cooperation in military affairs, technology and trade in natural resources. China’s ruling Communist Party allows no political opposition and keeps a tight hold on civil society, while Russian leader Vladimir Putin has cracked down heavily on citizens calling for a more open system."

"Russia has been under Western sanctions for years over its seizure of the Crimea, support for separatists in Ukraine and attacks on government critics."
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9364 on: March 24, 2021, 03:55:57 pm »

Some more excerpts from the article which you quoted... [with a couple of comments inserted]

At their initial meeting in the southern Chinese city of Nanning on Monday, Wang and Lavrov accused the U.S. of interference in other countries’ affairs and urged it to rejoin the Iran nuclear agreement, something that President Joe Biden’s new administration has approached cautiously. Russia and China both maintain close relations with Tehran, with which they share a firm approach against any political opposition.  [Three authoritarian countries having collective common cause to oppose pressure and sanctions from democracies. Now, how obvious is that?]

The two officials continued that rhetoric at a news conference on Tuesday, where Wang sharply criticized coordinated sanctions brought by the European Union, Britain, Canada and the United States against Chinese officials over human rights abuses in China’s far western Xinjiang region.

Lavrov said sanctions were drawing Russia and China closer together and accused the West of “imposing their own rules on everyone else, which they believe should underpin the world order.”

“If Europe broke these relations, simply destroying all the mechanisms that have been created for many years ... then, probably, objectively, this leads to the fact that our relations with China are developing faster than what’s left of relations with European countries,” Lavrov said.

In a joint statement issued after the meeting, the two ministers said no country should seek to impose its form of democracy on any other.

“Interference in a sovereign nation’s internal affairs under the excuse of ‘advancing democracy’ is unacceptable,” the statement said.  [They didn't mention whether interference in a nation’s internal affairs to undermine democracy and advance authoritarianism was acceptable or unacceptable.]
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 04:28:26 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9365 on: March 24, 2021, 05:42:13 pm »

One authoritarian country having common cause with another authoritarian country to oppose pressure and sanctions from democracies. Now, how obvious is that?
We already make common cause with authoritarian regimes when it's to our advantage.  Egypt, Turkey etc.  We already make deals with Russia.  The space program, Muslim terrorism, etc.  Russia isn't a threat to our long term interests, China is.  The Democrats and Biden are shooting ourselves in the foot for domestic political reasons.  That's stupid.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9366 on: March 24, 2021, 05:54:16 pm »

We already make common cause with authoritarian regimes when it's to our advantage.  Egypt, Turkey etc.  We already make deals with Russia.

Sure we do. What do you expect? I haven't seen anyone suggest we should just close our eyes and pretend authoritarian regimes don't exist. The U.S. and the rest of the world have huge economic ties to China. Europe has a strong reliance on energy from Russia. Saudi Arabia sells oil around the globe. That's the real world.

Russia isn't a threat to our long term interests, China is.

They both pose various threats to our national interest and to other democracies. Along with a variety of other threats in the world.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 07:15:54 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9367 on: March 24, 2021, 05:57:47 pm »

Sure we do. What do you expect? I haven't seen anyone suggest we should just close our eyes and pretend authoritarian regimes don't exist. The U.S. and the rest of the world have huge economic ties to China. Europe has a strong reliance on energy from Russia. That's the real world.

They both pose various threats to our national interest and to other democracies. Along with a variety of other threats in the world.
russia is no economic threat to us. China is.  So is China's military expansion around the world.  It would be better to have Russia on our side rather than on China's.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9368 on: March 24, 2021, 06:59:27 pm »

russia is no economic threat to us. China is.  So is China's military expansion around the world.  It would be better to have Russia on our side rather than on China's.

Russia is an economic threat in Europe due to energy reliance. The majority of their exports are energy. They are a military threat wherever they choose to be one. Putin is a hostile threat to democracy everywhere, particularly the U.S. and Europe. China is Russia's largest trading partner. Russia exports more to China than to any other single country and their exports to China rose dramatically under Trump. Russia also imports more from China than from any other nation.

Russia already has close economic ties to China due to trade. The political affinity between Russia and China comes from their shared hostility toward democracy. Russia and China both have close relationships with Iran for the same reason.

China on the other hand has experienced their rapid economic growth, over recent decades, due to exports and their manufacturing capacity. China's largest export markets are the U.S. and EU. Do they pose a variety of threats to the U.S. and Europe. Yes, but how much do they want to antagonize their biggest customers or jeopardize their economic interests and gains? Time will tell, but geopolitics and geoeconomics are always fluid and a constant balancing act.

None of it is simple.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 07:20:03 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9369 on: March 24, 2021, 08:02:04 pm »

Russia is an economic threat in Europe due to energy reliance. The majority of their exports are energy. They are a military threat wherever they choose to be one. Putin is a hostile threat to democracy everywhere, particularly the U.S. and Europe. China is Russia's largest trading partner. Russia exports more to China than to any other single country and their exports to China rose dramatically under Trump. Russia also imports more from China than from any other nation.

Russia already has close economic ties to China due to trade. The political affinity between Russia and China comes from their shared hostility toward democracy. Russia and China both have close relationships with Iran for the same reason.

China on the other hand has experienced their rapid economic growth, over recent decades, due to exports and their manufacturing capacity. China's largest export markets are the U.S. and EU. Do they pose a variety of threats to the U.S. and Europe. Yes, but how much do they want to antagonize their biggest customers or jeopardize their economic interests and gains? Time will tell, but geopolitics and geoeconomics are always fluid and a constant balancing act.

None of it is simple.
So why is Europe building a natural gas line to Russia to wind up dependent on it.  Russia could then turn the spigot off at any time to get them to back  up Russian interests.  How stupid are the Europeans?  Meanwhile they want America to defend them from the Bear. How stupid is America?

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9370 on: March 24, 2021, 08:09:15 pm »

So why is Europe building a natural gas line to Russia to wind up dependent on it.  Russia could then turn the spigot off at any time to get them to back  up Russian interests.  How stupid are the Europeans?  Meanwhile they want America to defend them from the Bear. How stupid is America?

None of it is simple. It's complex and a balancing act. It involves constant risk vs reward assessments in a fluid environment. Stupidity would be to ignore the complexities involved.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 08:26:10 pm by TechTalk »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9371 on: March 25, 2021, 09:18:54 am »

russia is no economic threat to us. China is.  So is China's military expansion around the world.  It would be better to have Russia on our side rather than on China's.

You seem to frame international trade in military terms. China and the US are trading nations. Nations engage in trade when it's mutually beneficial or they wouldn't do it at all. You might want to change your choice of metaphor, not sure of its purpose.

What do you mean by having Russia on "our" side? Aren't you disturbed by all that state-sponsored social media fakery that they've been demonstrated to be involved in time and time again? Are you really saying that Russia under Putin is a "good" player?

And just another question that you won't like. Why are you worried about China's military expansion but somehow don't like it when other people worry about the US current military presence throughout the world? I know that we in the west regard US presence around the world as benign, if not an outright good. It's how we view the world. But it's not 1946 any more and the world has seen numerous examples of the US not always acting in a way that matches their rhetoric. And after Trump, the world has seen that maybe the US is not so reliable an ally. I mean, Trump thought the Saudis royals were good buddies. You can't do stuff like that and expect that others around the globe will trust you.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9372 on: March 25, 2021, 09:33:30 am »

So why is Europe building a natural gas line to Russia to wind up dependent on it.  Russia could then turn the spigot off at any time to get them to back  up Russian interests.  How stupid are the Europeans?  Meanwhile they want America to defend them from the Bear. How stupid is America?

They could, but that has never happened in the past, even though tensions have been high. The Russian economy depends on supplying hydrocarbons - they can't afford to play games with it.

(The thing about US defending Europe is too silly to merit a response)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9373 on: March 25, 2021, 10:42:37 am »

You seem to frame international trade in military terms. China and the US are trading nations. Nations engage in trade when it's mutually beneficial or they wouldn't do it at all. You might want to change your choice of metaphor, not sure of its purpose.

What do you mean by having Russia on "our" side? Aren't you disturbed by all that state-sponsored social media fakery that they've been demonstrated to be involved in time and time again? Are you really saying that Russia under Putin is a "good" player?

And just another question that you won't like. Why are you worried about China's military expansion but somehow don't like it when other people worry about the US current military presence throughout the world? I know that we in the west regard US presence around the world as benign, if not an outright good. It's how we view the world. But it's not 1946 any more and the world has seen numerous examples of the US not always acting in a way that matches their rhetoric. And after Trump, the world has seen that maybe the US is not so reliable an ally. I mean, Trump thought the Saudis royals were good buddies. You can't do stuff like that and expect that others around the globe will trust you.
It's true, we're not perfect.  Sometimes we butt in when we shouldn't.  There I agree. However, would Canada prefer Russia or China as friends over America?  Regarding why it would be better for America to have Russia as a friend as well, wouldn't it be better if we were having military exercises with the Russians rather they with China?  Of course, I don't trust Putin or like what he does.  But Turkey's Erdogan is a creep too as are the Saudi royals But they're our ally and yours.  What's the expression?-  the enemy of my enemy is my friend. 

I guess someone has to be the good cop. We sort of got assign that job at the end of WWII. I also agree it isn't 1946 anymore.  Why are we defending Europe?  Germany France etc are rich enough to buy all their own tanks.  We can't afford it.  Certainly, they should keep their financial commitments to defence.  They're not doing it.  The same might be true in the Western Pacific and China.  Why are we there? The problem is if we don't try to stop things early, we eventually get involved when it's worse.  Lately I'm flipping on this issue.  I always thought we should get involved.  Now I don't think so any more. Certainly, we can't afford it anymore.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9374 on: March 25, 2021, 10:53:49 am »

They could, but that has never happened in the past, even though tensions have been high. The Russian economy depends on supplying hydrocarbons - they can't afford to play games with it.

(The thing about US defending Europe is too silly to merit a response)
It's when tensions getting really high they'll do it.  Who would have thought the Arabs would have shut down so much of their oil in the 1973 oil crisis? 

So you want to depend on the good graces and economic needs of Russia to expect them to agree with Europe's geopolicies? One Russian threat they'll turn the spigot off and Europe fold like a cheap suit and agree with anything Russia says.

Regarding US defence of Europe, since you can't come up with a reason, maybe we should just pull out.   

jeremyrh

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9375 on: March 25, 2021, 11:35:35 am »


Regarding US defence of Europe, since you can't come up with a reason, maybe we should just pull out.   

There was a slogan in the 70's when the US was building bases in Britain - "Think of your country as an aircraft carrier".  The US is not protecting Europe - it is using Europe as a forward base to protect itself.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9376 on: March 25, 2021, 11:58:52 am »

There was a slogan in the 70's when the US was building bases in Britain - "Think of your country as an aircraft carrier".  The US is not protecting Europe - it is using Europe as a forward base to protect itself.
We have plenty of aircraft carriers that float.  In fact, we can't afford those either.    We don't need a forward base.  We have ICBMs to protect ourselves against the Russians.  They're not attacking us anyway.  They're your problem, not ours. NO one becomes reliant on a future enemy by building a gas pipeline to their enemy.  All this is about is America provide arms so local countries can spend their money on social programs rather than tanks.  Let the American taxpayer pay for defense is Europe's slogan.    Certainly, we can scale back.  Frankly, I think American defense planners are more worried about another internecine war among European states than Russia attacking.  At least that's what happened in the 20th Century.  We're just there to stop you guys from fighting among yourselves.

Frans Waterlander

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9377 on: March 25, 2021, 12:00:30 pm »

There was a slogan in the 70's when the US was building bases in Britain - "Think of your country as an aircraft carrier".  The US is not protecting Europe - it is using Europe as a forward base to protect itself.
Off all the drivel and BS on this thread, this is the most despicable. Shame on you!
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jeremyrh

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9378 on: March 25, 2021, 12:23:57 pm »

At least that's what happened in the 20th Century.  We're just there to stop you guys from fighting among yourselves.

And supply gum and nylon stockings, right?
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jeremyrh

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9379 on: March 25, 2021, 12:24:32 pm »

Off all the drivel and BS on this thread, this is the most despicable. Shame on you!

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution, Frans.
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