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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 474674 times)

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7960 on: February 22, 2021, 01:02:37 pm »

They understand the game.

I guess you are right. They were showing some interviews on television with people that picked the variable rate option and got the $17,000 electric bills, and they all just shrugged their shoulders and said you win some, you lose some. For God's sake, you had to call the city administrator who had to call his advisors to find out if you were going get screwed too if it got cold. If you didn't know, how is anyone supposed to know? Maybe those variable rate guys down in Texas trusted the government like you.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7961 on: February 22, 2021, 01:08:36 pm »

Some states outlaw gambling. Obviously not Nevada. Probably not New Jersey. You said you like to bet on the horses.
What's your point?  If I lose in Vegas because I took a chance as a grownup, the government doesn't reimburse me for my risk-taking.  So someone who gets an adjustable mortgage at a lower rate rather than a fixed mortgage at a higher rate or similar situation with electric charges are also taking a risk.  Why didn't they take the more secure route with a fixed rate?  They figured paying 2 cents a KWH is a lot cheaper than 12 cents, and took a chance.  They've been saving 85% of their electric bills for years.  How much is that in dollars?  Why should those who spent 12 cents bail them out. They understand the game.

 Do we bail everyone out because of their foolishness or risk-taking?     Should we buy the house for the adjustable mortgage owner?  Pay the loans for student tuition loans?  Where would it stop? Too many people are looking for cradle-to-grave government protection.  We don't have enough money to bail everyone out.  It's just more moral hazard.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7962 on: February 22, 2021, 01:13:10 pm »

I guess you are right. They were showing some interviews on television with people that picked the variable rate option and got the $17,000 electric bills, and they all just shrugged their shoulders and said you win some, you lose some. For God's sake, you had to call the city administrator who had to call his advisors to find out if you were going get screwed too if it got cold. If you didn't know, how is anyone supposed to know? Maybe those variable rate guys down in Texas trusted the government like you.
You just proved my point.  Never trust the government.  I keep saying that.  No one in government gives a damn except for themselves.  But I did my due diligence when I signed up for the lower rate.  But none of us are perfect.  I could have overlooked something like what happened in Texas.  So I'm double checking.  Should I believe the business manager now?  Well, there's only so much checking you can do.  It's like my exposure meter.  Never do trust the damn thing.  Always double checking.  I think it lies to me.  I've got shots to prove it.  :)

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7963 on: February 22, 2021, 01:13:30 pm »

They understand the game.

Since you repeated yourself, I'll repeat myself.

I guess you are right. They were showing some interviews on television with people that picked the variable rate option and got the $17,000 electric bills, and they all just shrugged their shoulders and said you win some, you lose some. For God's sake, you had to call the city administrator who had to call his advisors to find out if you were going get screwed too if it got cold. If you didn't know, how is anyone supposed to know? Maybe those variable rate guys down in Texas trusted the government like you.

Just for emphasis:

I trusted the township that they know what they're doing.  If they didn't then you're right.  I could get burned too. 

You just proved my point.  Never trust the government.  I keep saying that.  No one in government gives a damn except for themselves.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 01:55:44 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7964 on: February 22, 2021, 01:20:31 pm »

Since you repeated yourself, I'll repeat myself.

I think I answered you.  So what do you want to do with the people who bought into a so-called bad deal?  Maybe the governor will have Texas reimburse them although I doubt if that will fly.  All the people, who've been paying 12 cents will complain it's not fair because the 2 cent people have been saving thousands over the years. 

I haven't read an article that gives the saving amounts for these people.  Don't you think it would be nice to know what they've been saving for twenty years at a 2 cent rate?  If that was what I was paying, I would have saved over $20K.  Don't you think we should know what these people saved?   Maybe that's why the guy shrugged his shoulder when he was told the extra money he had to pay.  He's made out like a bandit for so long.  He's still coming out way ahead. 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7965 on: February 22, 2021, 01:21:51 pm »

You just proved my point.  Never trust the government.  I keep saying that.  No one in government gives a damn except for themselves.  But I did my due diligence when I signed up for the lower rate.  But none of us are perfect.  I could have overlooked something like what happened in Texas.  So I'm double checking.  Should I believe the business manager now?  Well, there's only so much checking you can do.  It's like my exposure meter.  Never do trust the damn thing.  Always double checking.  I think it lies to me.  I've got shots to prove it.  :)

I would ask to see a copy of the agreement you entered into for paying for electricity. Maybe, given the number of years you worked for the government, you are satisfied that the bureaucrat you spoke to knew what he was talking about, and so you'll trust him. It would be antithetical to everything to have written here about government, but that's no reason not to go with whatever the guy told you on the phone. Sort of the do as I say not as do approach.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7966 on: February 22, 2021, 01:27:07 pm »

I think I answered you.  So what do you want to do with the people who bought into a so-called bad deal?

The least the governor could do is send them a free illustrated guide to bankruptcy court and maybe a list of bankruptcy lawyers in their zip code. I am pretty sure everyone in the trailer park went with the variable rate. That's how it usually goes with these things.

If I were a betting man, and I am not, but if I were, I'd wager the guys with the $17,000 electric bills are going to get some relief, either from the state government or the electricity providers, or both, notwithstanding all that Texas self-reliance shtick. Of course, I could be wrong. It's happened before.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 01:45:28 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7967 on: February 22, 2021, 01:40:11 pm »

I would ask to see a copy of the agreement you entered into for paying for electricity. Maybe, given the number of years you worked for the government, you are satisfied that the bureaucrat you spoke to knew what he was talking about, and so you'll trust him. It would be antithetical to everything to have written here about government, but that's no reason not to go with whatever the guy told you on the phone. Sort of do as I say not as do approach.
First, I never said everything the government does is expensive and incompetent.  Just most of it.  :)  In any case, he's going to send me the report from the expert he spoke to.  So I'll have that to review.   But we all have to make decisions about things, sometimes with limited knowledge or competence.  How do I know that the regular utility company can't raise rates the same way as Texas?   Plus I never did any due diligence with them when I moved in.  Why would it matter?  Am I going to move out if I don't like the terms? So switching to another company isn't necessarily riskier. Plus the township seemed very competent in the way they negotiated better terms.  That showed me they had some savvy. Plus, AOC wasn’t on the board. 

I'll tell you about a situation similar I had in NYC when I lived in a Queen's apartment house.  At first, the electricity cost was included in the rent.  Then the landlord was going to install a sub-metering system where we would be charged directly by the utility, a more expensive proposition for the tenants.  So the NYC councilman for my district made a big deal about how he was going to fight the landlord for us.  They even got a lawyer to represent our side.  So what happened is the judge threw out our lawsuit because the councilman and his attorney missed the cutoff date for providing evidence. What a jerk he was, and the lawyer too. They couldn't even read a calendar.  All these politicians are the same.

Now I'm having my doubts again.  Maybe I should not trust the business manager.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7968 on: February 22, 2021, 01:42:45 pm »

The least the governor could do is send them a free illustrated guide to bankruptcy court and maybe a list of bankruptcy lawyers in their zip code.

If I were a betting man, and I am not, but if I were, I'd wager the guys with the $17,000 electric bills are going to get some relief, either from the state government or the electricity providers, or both, notwithstanding all that Texas self-reliance shtick. Of course, I could be wrong. It's happened before.
I think AOC should run a benefit.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7969 on: February 22, 2021, 01:51:48 pm »

I think AOC should run a benefit.

She was at $4 million yesterday. I haven't checked this morning. I think compassionate Ted Cruz is on one of those "horns of a dilemma" you like to talk about. He can't decide whether to quarantine with Snowflake or load more water bottles into people's car trunks down at Walmart. If I were him, I'd probably head back down to Cancun, because it can't get any worse for him on the public relations front, and the sun is shining and the water is warm.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7970 on: February 22, 2021, 01:54:12 pm »

For $17,000 you could buy 2 or 3 Tesla energy wall panels which would keep you warm for several days.
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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7971 on: February 22, 2021, 02:23:33 pm »

For $17,000 you could buy 2 or 3 Tesla energy wall panels which would keep you warm for several days.

Maybe, but I don't think so. I looked into this, and the batteries don't last as long as you'd think, or at least as long as I thought.

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/is-the-tesla-powerwall-the-best-solar-battery-available#tesla-powerwall-cost

"With the ability to hold 13.5 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity, the Powerwall has one of the highest usable capacity ratings of residential solar batteries on the market. That’s enough energy to cover about half of the average U.S. home’s daily energy usage."

I think, but I'm not sure, that if you turned off everything but an electric-start gas heater (which most people have) and a refrigerator, and strictly limited the use of things like large TVs, two or three power walls might last several days, and if connected to a solar panel and if you had sunshine, could possibly get you through a week on a greatly limited basis.
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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7972 on: February 22, 2021, 02:25:50 pm »

Looks like we'll hit a half-million covid deaths today or tomorrow, according to the Johns Hopkins count.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7973 on: February 22, 2021, 02:28:15 pm »

She was at $4 million yesterday. I haven't checked this morning. I think compassionate Ted Cruz is on one of those "horns of a dilemma" you like to talk about. He can't decide whether to quarantine with Snowflake or load more water bottles into people's car trunks down at Walmart. If I were him, I'd probably head back down to Cancun, because it can't get any worse for him on the public relations front, and the sun is shining and the water is warm.
Maybe he can fly to New York and commiserate with Gov Cuomo. 

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7974 on: February 22, 2021, 02:28:51 pm »

Here's a suggestion for Texas regulators.  Add a cap of let's say a maximum of $1000 in case this happens again.  Now people have three choices instead of two.  The original 12 cents per KWH guaranteed or the original 2 cents but with no limit. Or a new third selection: 5 cents per KWH with the $1000 cap. The cap will force the utility to charge more per KWH to protect itself.

What do you think will happen?  I'd say there still will be people who will play the game and take the 2 cent deal with no cap.  What do you think?

Here's a suggestion for Texas regulators. Regulate rather than recommend.

Texas has had this happen before. In 1989, several Texas power generating plants failed due to extreme winter cold and it happened again in 2011. After the failures in 1989, the Public Utility Commission of Texas, whose members are appointed by the governor and whose mission statement is to “protect customers, foster competition, and promote high quality infrastructure”, issued a number of recommendations aimed at improving winterization of the generators. The recommendations were not mandatory and as a result were not followed by many of the electric power and gas utilities which have placed more emphasis on the cost of energy than on its reliability.

After power blackouts occurred again in February 2011 due to extreme cold temperatures, the Texas state legislature held a hearing where many expressed surprise that Texas had outages when other areas of the country are able to keep power on during cold weather. In August of 2011, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) and the North American Electric Reliability Corp. wrote a 357-page report showing that winterization recommendations following the 1989 outage weren’t implemented. Texas keeps nearly all of their power grid contained solely within Texas and therefore the grid operated by ERCOT, which supplies 90% of the power in Texas, is not subject to federal regulation by FERC which has mandatory reliability standards for operators within its jurisdiction.

https://www.ferc.gov/industries-data/electric/electric-power-markets/ercot

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission in its 2011 report noted:

Winterization

"Generators and natural gas producers suffered severe losses of capacity despite having received accurate forecasts of the storm. Entities in both categories report having winterization procedures in place. However, the poor performance of many of these generating units and wells suggests that these procedures were either inadequate or were not adequately followed.

The experiences of 1989 are instructive, particularly on the electric side. In that year, as in 2011, cold weather caused many generators to trip, derate, or fail to start. The PUCT [Public Utility Commission of Texas] investigated the occurrence and issued a number of recommendations aimed at improving winterization on the part of the generators. These recommendations were not mandatory, and over the course of time implementation lapsed. Many of the generators that experienced outages in 1989 failed again in 2011."

"While extreme cold weather events are obviously not as common in the Southwest as elsewhere, they do occur every few years. And when they do, the cost in terms of dollars and human hardship is considerable."


Again on July 18, FERC and NERC issued a staff report titled, The South Central United States Cold Weather Bulk Electric System Event of January 17, 2018. The report discusses the cold weather event that occurred in the south-central U.S. in January 2018. In the report, FERC and NERC note that "More than one-third of the GO/GOPs that lost generation during the Event did not have a winterization plan".

Their recommendation again: "Developing one or more mandatory Reliability Standards that require Generator Owner/Operators to prepare for the winter and to provide information regarding their preparations (or lack thereof) to their RCs [Regulatory Commissions] and Balancing Authorities (BAs)."

I mean the nerve of that pesky federal government to make recommendations to Texas, when Texas has designed a system exempt from federal regulation. Every conservative ideologue knows deep in their bones that states know better than the tyrannical federal government what is best for their state and their citizens!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 02:33:46 pm by TechTalk »
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7975 on: February 22, 2021, 02:34:48 pm »

Maybe, but I don't think so. I looked into this, and the batteries don't last as long as you'd think, or at least as long as I thought.
Indeed. I’ve looked into this and a system that’s coming from Generac. I’m on a 3.6kwh solar tracker system. We currently have a Generac 14kwh generator (propane) to back up our well pump, refrigerator and all heat/cooling/ERV and a few backup plugs if the power goes out. Spoke with Generac a few weeks ago, I was told, forget this battery backup stuff; the batteries are super expensive to replace and don’t last that long.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 02:42:09 pm by digitaldog »
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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7976 on: February 22, 2021, 02:35:23 pm »

I agree with Alan on one aspect of this: I don't think the government should bail out people on what amount to gambling losses. I do think the government should be able to ban some forms of gambling. (Like on electricity costs.)

This Texas situation is almost like a reverse numbers game. In a standard numbers game, you try to pick three numbers (out of the 1000 possible, if the game allows 000) and you bet a dollar. If you hit the number, you get paid $500 or $600 which means over the course of years, you'll probably lose half your money. But nobody cares about $1 a day, while $500 or $600 can be a major gift. Texas reversed that -- you saved a couple of bucks a day (maybe) but when your number came up, you were screwed. But it's still all a numbers game.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7977 on: February 22, 2021, 02:36:03 pm »

Maybe, but I don't think so. I looked into this, and the batteries don't last as long as you'd think, or at least as long as I thought.

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/is-the-tesla-powerwall-the-best-solar-battery-available#tesla-powerwall-cost

"With the ability to hold 13.5 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity, the Powerwall has one of the highest usable capacity ratings of residential solar batteries on the market. That’s enough energy to cover about half of the average U.S. home’s daily energy usage."

I think, but I'm not sure, that if you turned off everything but an electric-start gas heater (which most people have) and a refrigerator, and strictly limited the use of things like large TVs, two or three power walls might last several days, and if connected to a solar panel and if you had sunshine, could possibly get you through a week on a greatly limited basis.
My 4 ton central AC requires 15kw to run.  I was looking into a 24kw natural gas-powered emergency generator due to power failures we have around here occasionally. That would cover the AC and most of the rest of the house except electric ovens.  But who's cooking during a power failure anyway.   One model can include batteries with solar cell additions for up to a 3 ton AC, but that's it.  Nothing leftover even for my electric toothbrush.    I don't know how many hours that battery pack would give you.  So instantaneous power output and residual storage hours are key.  The person who develops a battery that really can store lots of energy cheaply will make a fortune. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7978 on: February 22, 2021, 02:45:54 pm »

Here's a suggestion for Texas regulators. Regulate rather than recommend.

Texas has had this happen before. In 1989, several Texas power generating plants failed due to extreme winter cold and it happened again in 2011. After the failures in 1989, the Public Utility Commission of Texas, whose members are appointed by the governor and whose mission statement is to “protect customers, foster competition, and promote high quality infrastructure”, issued a number of recommendations aimed at improving winterization of the generators. The recommendations were not mandatory and as a result were not followed by many of the electric power and gas utilities which have placed more emphasis on the cost of energy than on its reliability.

After power blackouts occurred again in February 2011 due to extreme cold temperatures, the Texas state legislature held a hearing where many expressed surprise that Texas had outages when other areas of the country are able to keep power on during cold weather. In August of 2011, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) and the North American Electric Reliability Corp. wrote a 357-page report showing that winterization recommendations following the 1989 outage weren’t implemented. Texas keeps nearly all of their power grid contained solely within Texas and therefore the grid operated by ERCOT, which supplies 90% of the power in Texas, is not subject to federal regulation by FERC which has mandatory reliability standards for operators within its jurisdiction.

https://www.ferc.gov/industries-data/electric/electric-power-markets/ercot

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission in its 2011 report noted:

Winterization

"Generators and natural gas producers suffered severe losses of capacity despite having received accurate forecasts of the storm. Entities in both categories report having winterization procedures in place. However, the poor performance of many of these generating units and wells suggests that these procedures were either inadequate or were not adequately followed.

The experiences of 1989 are instructive, particularly on the electric side. In that year, as in 2011, cold weather caused many generators to trip, derate, or fail to start. The PUCT [Public Utility Commission of Texas] investigated the occurrence and issued a number of recommendations aimed at improving winterization on the part of the generators. These recommendations were not mandatory, and over the course of time implementation lapsed. Many of the generators that experienced outages in 1989 failed again in 2011."

"While extreme cold weather events are obviously not as common in the Southwest as elsewhere, they do occur every few years. And when they do, the cost in terms of dollars and human hardship is considerable."


Again on July 18, FERC and NERC issued a staff report titled, The South Central United States Cold Weather Bulk Electric System Event of January 17, 2018. The report discusses the cold weather event that occurred in the south-central U.S. in January 2018. In the report, FERC and NERC note that "More than one-third of the GO/GOPs that lost generation during the Event did not have a winterization plan".

Their recommendation again: "Developing one or more mandatory Reliability Standards that require Generator Owner/Operators to prepare for the winter and to provide information regarding their preparations (or lack thereof) to their RCs [Regulatory Commissions] and Balancing Authorities (BAs)."

I mean the nerve of that pesky federal government to make recommendations to Texas, when Texas has designed a system exempt from federal regulation. Every conservative ideologue knows deep in their bones that states know better than the tyrannical federal government what is best for their state and their citizens!
That's the beauty of the federal system. It allows each state to make its own mistakes.  If a central government with no federal system makes a mistake, the whole country is affected.  50 states allow 50 possible experiments in all sorts of things.  When one state screws up, the other 49 learn from it.  If one state has succeeded in an experiment, such as Calfornia clean air requirements for vehicles, other states learn from the good practices as well and can duplicate the success.  Although I'm opposed to legalized pot, look at how individual states ignored the national laws against it from Washington. The federal system accomplished that.   

You can be sure most states will now examine the problems Texas had and try to stop it from happening in their states. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #7979 on: February 22, 2021, 02:49:40 pm »

Just an additional point.  Should the states follow a national policy opening schools, restaurants, and other venues, or should each state be allowed to make those determinations as they see fit for their state?

Should we do away with the federal system?
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