Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Robert Roaldi]

During war, there are casualties.  Trump was the first president to try something more than complaining verbally about their theft of our property.  When someone is banging you over the head and you defend yourself, you're going to get bruised.  Should we just continue to let them steal our stuff and act like a bunch of women and do nothing?  What do you recommend we should do?  What should Biden do?  It's easy to complain.  But what do you suggest we do to stop them?

What are you talking about? American companies gladly and willingly transferred or allowed the transfer of a lot of manufacturing to China. But besides all that hot air, the US is still the 2nd largest manufacturing country. Honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about in this drivel about an economic war. China behaves like competitive businessmen, I thought you were in favour of competition.

Or are you only in favour of it if you "win"?

Honestly, I have completely lost the thread of your arguments.

[Alan Klein]

I'll repeat again for emphasis: I have not asked you for facts to back up your opinions since you told me doing so was impolite and an act of bad faith.  In fact, I have gone out of my way to affirm that you are entitled to have your opinions, fact-free or otherwise.

Oh, OK.  I was confused about your concerns.  Opine away.

[digitaldog]

Are you referring to Alan, or to Trump?

Both.
Let's try some Child psychology: Everyone disagrees with Trump and Alan. 

[digitaldog]

Oh, OK.  I was confused about your concerns.  Opine away.

The first step in curing the disease is admitting you have a problem. Everyone knows that right? 

[Alan Klein]

China was never a signatory to the Trans-Pacific Partnership, nor was it expected to be: in order to become one, the Chinese government would have had to conform to international trading standards, including protection of intellectual property.  The T.P.P. was designed to make it economically attractive for Pacific rim countries to trade with each other profitably within a rules-based system precisely in order to make them less vulnerable to Chinese influence.

The Bush, Obama, and Trump Administrations all made similar efforts to deter theft of intellectual property by Chinese companies and the Chinese government, as have a number of European governments.  Multilateral trade agreements are the most effective way to accomplish this.  Improved information security—e.g., better defenses against computer "hacking"—also help, but each new defensive mechanism is likely to be countered with a new offensive mechanism, so the benefits tend to be transitory.

Well, nothing's worked to date.  But the tariffs did have some effect.  China washurting too.  Their companies got hit although you didn't hear much about it here because the press only reported the damage to America that the tariffs did because they didn't like Trump.  But right before Cvid, there was some deal, a partial trade move that didn't solve the issue but did move it forward.  Then covid set it all back again. 

You say multilateral trade agreements would stop it.  How?  China just ignores its promises. They're not a country of law.  They stole thos eisland in the South China Sea promising not to turn them into fortresses which they now are.  WTO ruled against them on issues they ignored.  How can you make a deal with a country that just ignores every hand shake?  The only thing country and people like that understand is force.  You have to twist their arms to get their attention.,  That's what Trump was trying to do.  If Biden gives up on it, we'll be back to square one.  We'll never get them to stop.  But I don't think he will stop.  It will be embarrassing for him and the democrats if he tries and they start stealing more. 

[Alan Klein]

Making fun of politicians is normal. It's sticking up for everything they do that's not normal.

Those words might come back to haunt you. 

[digitaldog]

Trump’s tariffs have helped some workers and hurt others. Nothing is particularly surprising about this:
https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020/votervital/did-trumps-tariffs-benefit-american-workers-and-national-security/
Yet, overall, when economists have attempted to add up the net effect of Trump’s tariffs on jobs, any gains in importing-competing sectors appear to have been more than offset by losses in industries that use imported inputs and face retaliation on their foreign exports. And even those jobs that have been created have come at great cost: studies suggest American consumers paid about $817,000 in higher prices attributable to the tariffs for every job created in the washing machine industry and $900,000 in the steel industry. While policy interventions to support manufacturing jobs may be warranted, there are cheaper ways to do so.

[digitaldog]

And Alan, more outside references, not made up opinion.

https://www.cfr.org/blog/92-percent-trumps-china-tariff-proceeds-has-gone-bail-out-angry-farmers

“China” is “paying billions and billions of dollars” on U.S. tariffs, President Trump said in his debate with Joe Biden on October 22. “And you know who got the money? Our farmers. Our great farmers.”

He is half right.

Since 2018, the president has repeatedly insisted that China pays the tariffs he has imposed on Chinese imports. This claim is false—the tariffs are paid entirely by U.S. importers. His advisers, such as Peter Navarro, knowing the claim is false, have tried to defend him, and the tariffs, by arguing that China pays the tariffs indirectly, through currency depreciation and lowering export prices. These arguments are also false, as well as illogical—since the advisers also claim that such Chinese behavior benefits China and hurts the United States.

[Alan Klein]

Are you under the illusion that US forces are in Europe as an act of charity? How naive can you get?

What are we protecting?   British independence from Europe?  What do you think we're protecting for us?  That the Russians don't overrun Europe?  Do you really think they're going to attack?  More probably it's to prevent European countries from killing each other again. That seems to be a regular hobby of yours. 

[Alan Klein]

What are you talking about? American companies gladly and willingly transferred or allowed the transfer of a lot of manufacturing to China. But besides all that hot air, the US is still the 2nd largest manufacturing country. Honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about in this drivel about an economic war. China behaves like competitive businessmen, I thought you were in favour of competition.

Or are you only in favour of it if you "win"?

Honestly, I have completely lost the thread of your arguments.

Competition doesn't include theft.  Transfer is one thing. But they're breaking into computer systems here and stealing trade secrets, design criteria, manufacturing procedures, etc. If someone stole your photos and sold copies at your loss, you'd sue and get damages.  It seems simple to me.  They're stealing from your Canada too.  There were alot of countries who supported Trump's attempt to squeeze  the Chinese.  They were losing too from China thefts.  I hope Biden stays strong with this.

[digitaldog]

Competition doesn't include theft.

Neither do our elections nor did they this month. Zero proof of theft. Inside the unreality bubble, all kinds of assumed and nonsensical 'theft.

[faberryman]

Those words might come back to haunt you. 

Probably not. Biden supporters don't strike me as being members of a cult of personality.

[Alan Klein]

Trump’s tariffs have helped some workers and hurt others. Nothing is particularly surprising about this:
https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020/votervital/did-trumps-tariffs-benefit-american-workers-and-national-security/
Yet, overall, when economists have attempted to add up the net effect of Trump’s tariffs on jobs, any gains in importing-competing sectors appear to have been more than offset by losses in industries that use imported inputs and face retaliation on their foreign exports. And even those jobs that have been created have come at great cost: studies suggest American consumers paid about $817,000 in higher prices attributable to the tariffs for every job created in the washing machine industry and $900,000 in the steel industry. While policy interventions to support manufacturing jobs may be warranted, there are cheaper ways to do so.

I said that in war there are casualties.  But the point of the tariffs is too eliminate IP theft and reduce Chinese tariffs on our products exported to them.   To make a fairer playing field.  If we can get there, then it would be worth it.  I'm all in favor of having great trade with China that's fair and equitable.  It's a win-win. 

[Alan Klein]

And Alan, more outside references, not made up opinion.

https://www.cfr.org/blog/92-percent-trumps-china-tariff-proceeds-has-gone-bail-out-angry-farmers

“China” is “paying billions and billions of dollars” on U.S. tariffs, President Trump said in his debate with Joe Biden on October 22. “And you know who got the money? Our farmers. Our great farmers.”

He is half right.

Since 2018, the president has repeatedly insisted that China pays the tariffs he has imposed on Chinese imports. This claim is false—the tariffs are paid entirely by U.S. importers. His advisers, such as Peter Navarro, knowing the claim is false, have tried to defend him, and the tariffs, by arguing that China pays the tariffs indirectly, through currency depreciation and lowering export prices. These arguments are also false, as well as illogical—since the advisers also claim that such Chinese behavior benefits China and hurts the United States.

You're half-right.    While we pay the added burden on tariffs, many Chinese producers lowered the wholesale price on their exports to cover all or part of the tariff cost Americans would pay.  They did that to stay competitive so America purchasers wouldn't go to other countries to buy similar products.  That was happening a lot. Not only were purchasers going elsewhere, they were moving production facilities out of China to Taiwan, Vietnam and other Asian countries.  By eating the cost of tariffs by lowering prices, China was trying to forestall these changes. So yes, Trump was right to a certain degree that China paid for the tariffs. 

[jeremyrh]

What are we protecting?   British independence from Europe?  What do you think we're protecting for us?  That the Russians don't overrun Europe?  Do you really think they're going to attack? 

Naah - they never do that. Just ask Ukraine.

[Alan Klein]

Probably not. Biden supporters don't strike me as being members of a cult of personality.

A cult of personality is one thing.  But Biden doesn't seem to have a core belief system.  He changed all his views for the election.  So he'll change them conveniently again when it suits him as president. My concern is that he doesn't have the wherewithal to run things himself.     It takes a  pr**k who likes to duke it out to put up with BS attacks and stick with a minority viewpoint. 

[digitaldog]

Tell us exactly and factually with peer reviewed outside reference what Trump accomplished with China. If you can!

Still waiting. 🥵

[Alan Klein]

Naah - they never do that. Just ask Ukraine.

Parts of Ukraine are Russian.  How many Russians are in Piccadilly Circus? 

[faberryman]

Still waiting.

It is hard to see and hear hand waving over the internet. Quoting Trump, Navarro, and Lighthizer is unlikely to sway anyone's opinion.

[faberryman]

How many Russians are in Piccadilly Circus?

Read much John le Carre?