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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 473450 times)

jeremyrh

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5800 on: January 14, 2021, 02:29:03 pm »

Sorry but I won't deal with people who continually play petty word games and make personal attacks.

TechTalk does neither of those things - he provides more factual material than pretty much anyone on this forum and I haven't seen him make a personal attack. You're really making yourself look bad by pretending otherwise.
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Petrus

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5801 on: January 14, 2021, 02:50:56 pm »

A long time ago, I took a ferry from Vaasa in Finland to Umea in Sweden. It was a pleasant summer sailing under 4 hours. The boat was full with happy Finns who took advantage of crossing international waters and consumed a large quantity of tax free spirits. They kept drinking until they literally fell down. It wasn't a very happy experience for the rest of the travellers. Also, on my subsequent trips to Finland I observed that the alcohol (and quite often the 100% pure variety) was an important ingredient to their happiness. I read that in the recent years the consumption of alcohol decreased slightly. Could it be due to global warming.

Ah, well... Those ferries (not tax free anymore as both Sweden and Finland are in the EU) did show the worst in our attitude to alcohol, so it is not a representative sample (I am drinking single malts at my mansion by the fireplace with two Papillons on my lap as I type away). But anyway happiness springs from security, we need not to worry about getting decent living, getting education to our kids, getting medical care, calling the police without danger of getting shot.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5802 on: January 14, 2021, 02:57:58 pm »

Ah, well... Those ferries (not tax free anymore as both Sweden and Finland are in the EU) did show the worst in our attitude to alcohol, so it is not a representative sample (I am drinking single malts at my mansion by the fireplace with two Papillons on my lap as I type away). But anyway happiness springs from security, we need not to worry about getting decent living, getting education to our kids, getting medical care, calling the police without danger of getting shot.

A joke that I'm sure you've heard 100 times:

2 Finns in a bar.
Finn #1 "Cheers!!"
Finn #2 "Are we here to drink, or to talk?"

A stereotype, but my own experience is of travelling from Stockholm to Abo as part of Uppsala University's "International Committee" to a party at our "sister" university- I never drank so much before or after in my life!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 03:03:01 pm by jeremyrh »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5803 on: January 14, 2021, 03:14:38 pm »

Ah, well... Those ferries (not tax free anymore as both Sweden and Finland are in the EU) did show the worst in our attitude to alcohol, so it is not a representative sample (I am drinking single malts at my mansion by the fireplace with two Papillons on my lap as I type away). But anyway happiness springs from security, we need not to worry about getting decent living, getting education to our kids, getting medical care, calling the police without danger of getting shot.

I have had very good experiences in Finland. People are nice and polite, natural and very sincere. I had the same experience with Finns in Canada. A friend of mine is married to a nice Finnish girl, and one of my nephews married also a Finnish girl and moved to Finland.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5804 on: January 14, 2021, 04:26:35 pm »

I don't care to spend anymore time on California state finances. It's been beaten to death; is not a topic of great interest relative to other more current and important news topics; and I'm bored with going down silly rabbit holes of ridiculous assertions. So I'll make this my last post on the subject and move on.

- California has a huge, diverse, and robust economy of about three trillion dollars. It's GDP is larger than all but a handful of countries. It's a major center for innovation and creating new wealth from new startups.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/us-gross-domestic-product-gdp-by-state

- Compared to other large population states, despite some volatility in their revenue system, they currently exhibit a relatively sound financial system and foundation due to major structural changes led by Democratic Governor Jerry Brown nearly a decade ago. Since those changes were put in place, they have turned deficits into surpluses and used those surpluses to eliminate short-term debts; bank over $20 billion in various rainy day reserve funds; and reduce longterm debt obligations with billions in pre-funding. In 2019 they made final payments on their remaining short-term budgetary debt, eliminating it entirely. Or, as Alan would call it... broke.

- Due to this, their financial stability and credit rating have steadily improved. Unlike states that actually are in a financial crisis, like New Jersey and Illinois. California started 2020 with enough reserves to continue paying its bills with no revenue at all for 54-days. New Jersey began 2020 with 4-days of reserve and Illinois zero. California did take money out of the reserve early in 2020, but paid it back fully, some months later, from their surplus.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2020/10/13/covid-19-prompts-states-to-start-tapping-financial-reserves

- A good overview of the states finances is available here from credit rating firm Fitch...

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/us-public-finance/fitch-upgrades-california-gos-to-aa-outlook-stable-16-08-2019

The upgrade of California's IDR and GO rating to 'AA' from 'AA-' reflects the improved fiscal management that has become institutionalized across administrations, which in Fitch's view allows it to better withstand economic and revenue cyclicality. The state has used temporary tax increases, underlying revenue growth, and a disciplined approach to limiting on-going spending growth to enhance its ability to maintain resiliency through the economic cycle. The state eliminated the overhang of budgetary borrowing that had accumulated through two recessions and continues to set-aside funds in the budget stabilization account (BSA). The rating incorporates California's large and diverse economy that supports strong, albeit cyclical, revenue growth prospects, solid ability to manage expenses through the economic cycle and a moderate level of liabilities.

- In regards to some of Alan's assertions, the surplus California managed to accrue in 2020 was not just due to a one-time event. It resulted from early estimates of reduced revenue that everyone expected in 2020, due to the pandemic, which prompted judicious cuts in spending by the state combined with a robust stock market that generated higher than projected revenue from capital gains taxes. To say that increases in the market, and the resulting increase in capital gains revenue, are a one-time event seems a bit pessimistic. The article he linked to described it that way, but that seems more a reflection of the author's bias at the California Chamber of Commerce than a realistic assessment. Forecasts of future deficits are made with the assumption that no change in expenditures is made and estimates of the future economic fallout from the pandemic and forecasts of recession. The state has shown an ability and willingness to make adjustments when needed, but could choose to run a deficit if it believes that will provide better stability and growth for economic conditions in the long term. It obviously doesn't mean the state is broke if that occurs. His disbelief in the straightforward accounting of state financial report data, which is simple reporting of actual revenue (income) and expenditure (outgo) data, and comparing that to estimates like the Consumer Price Index isn't really worth addressing.

- Finally, to John Camp's post regarding property tax and income tax revenues—the data that you sited is from a 2012 report citing 2010-2011 data. That ratio of property tax to income tax was true a decade ago, when the state was bleeding red ink due to an inability to change property tax rates or assessment and too little in other tax revenue to meet its obligations. The situation has dramatically changed since then regarding tax revenues, especially from income taxes. Due to Proposition 13 in 1978 which created a huge drop in property tax revenue; locked-in a relatively low effective rate of 0.77%; and prohibited re-assessment for life unless property was sold; California had to dramatically restructure its revenue system. The property tax system resulting from Proposition 13 is a bit nuts, although helpful to seniors on a fixed income, and it's nearly impossible to get voters to approve of its elimination or reform due to the provisions for assessment when enacted at 1976 value and restriction of annual increases of assessed value to a maximum of 2% per year. It prohibits reassessment at a new value except when change in ownership occurs or new construction is completed. These rules apply to all real estate, residential and commercial owned by individuals or corporations. Recently, a ballot proposition to eliminate Prop 13 just on commercial real estate assessment failed. It's likely not going away anytime soon.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-property-taxes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 06:46:29 pm by TechTalk »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5805 on: January 14, 2021, 05:45:20 pm »

Ah, well... Those ferries (not tax free anymore as both Sweden and Finland are in the EU) did show the worst in our attitude to alcohol, so it is not a representative sample (I am drinking single malts at my mansion by the fireplace with two Papillons on my lap as I type away). But anyway happiness springs from security, we need not to worry about getting decent living, getting education to our kids, getting medical care, calling the police without danger of getting shot.

This is off-topic but I spent a week in Finland in 1993. Some friends and I were there to spectate at the 1000 Lakes Rally, as it was called then. It was the first outing for the Impreza and Vatanen placed 2nd, for the 1 in 10,000 people who might care. What I remember very well about the trip was how decent people seemed to be, even when a little tipsy, as if they recognized that their surroundings were a common asset. I didn't see any graffiti that I remember in Helsinki. Another thing I remember is how good the food and coffee was in even the most isolated of locations and how good the drivers were on the roads. At a festival downtown on our first night, a young lady in leather from an erotic kink club was handing out invitations to a party. Live and let live, seemed to be the attitude. We didn't go.

I became and remain good friends with a Finnish couple from that time, about the time I was going through a divorce. I don't drink, or not enough to matter, and I remember the wife of the couple telling me that I would probably "do well" in Finland on the dating front. When I asked why, she said that because my background is Italian, many Finnish women would consider me exotic (something I doubt), but the main reason was that because I didn't drink, I would be the only sober male at any party by 10:00 pm. Her husband said that was very true.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5806 on: January 14, 2021, 06:29:03 pm »

You're wasting my time.  You're on my ignore list.
His ignore list only has the best people 😍
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EricV

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5807 on: January 14, 2021, 11:14:56 pm »

He has been on my ignore list for a few months now.  I still see enough snippets of posts, quoted by others, to confirm that decision :)
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5808 on: January 15, 2021, 06:13:28 am »

I really don't like when you call me a liar.  The 10% was stated in the article I read.  If there are variables based on income, the article didn't state that.  While it's certainly appropriate for you to clarify those variables, it isn't right to call me a liar.  I'm not an expert on California tax law and this is a photo not an accounting forum. I cannot know more than the article stated. If that's where this discussion is going to stay, I'm going to add your name to my Ignore list.  Your constant personal attacks aren't appropriate and must end.

Alan - I would say it's always wise to research an article before re-posting the information.  That is the biggest problem with social media in general - folk re-posting stuff that is not true.  I can think of so many examples from recent years that even the most rudimentary checks would show as false. In the case of California tax percentages, possibly not that critical.  But a lot of assertions made are plainly, and sometimes dangerously, false.  No - you cannot be an expert in every field, in which case it's better not to comment without more knowledge of the facts.
Based on the historical accuracy of what people or institutions say, we must base our belief on the veracity of anything new they say.  Which is why I'm always cautious of politicians - but some I would not believe a single word from.  Your recent ex-President is a good example.

Jim
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5809 on: January 15, 2021, 07:08:59 am »

Alan - I would say it's always wise to research an article before re-posting the information.  That is the biggest problem with social media in general - folk re-posting stuff that is not true.  I can think of so many examples from recent years that even the most rudimentary checks would show as false. In the case of California tax percentages, possibly not that critical.  But a lot of assertions made are plainly, and sometimes dangerously, false.  No - you cannot be an expert in every field, in which case it's better not to comment without more knowledge of the facts.
Based on the historical accuracy of what people or institutions say, we must base our belief on the veracity of anything new they say.  Which is why I'm always cautious of politicians - but some I would not believe a single word from.  Your recent ex-President is a good example.

Jim
There were numerous articles that I read that mentioned the 10% that was stated by the California government official handling this tax.  Am I suppose to research the California tax codes to verify?  In any case, the ten percent is probably correct and an average amount collected from the whole profit as the rates vary from 9.3% to 13.x%.

He was just playing word games. In any case, my post had nothing to do with an exact percentage.  That's not what the point was of my post.  The point was that California got a one-time benefit from sales of stock made by rich people. That doesn't;t mean they're rolling in money. They are still hugely in debt which will continue for another three years according to that official.  Whether it was an average of 10%, 9.3%, or 13.x% doesn't matter. Those are insignificant details, distinctions without a difference.  He was just trolling and looking for an excuse to attack me personally rather than having an informed and intelligent debate.  That's game playing and a waste of my time.   Since the administrator won't do anything anymore about personal attacks, then I'll use the Ignore function.  I don't have time for that nonsense.

LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5810 on: January 15, 2021, 09:40:29 am »

There were numerous articles that I read that mentioned the 10% that was stated by the California government official handling this tax.  Am I suppose to research the California tax codes to verify?  In any case, the ten percent is probably correct and an average amount collected from the whole profit as the rates vary from 9.3% to 13.x%.

He was just playing word games. In any case, my post had nothing to do with an exact percentage.  That's not what the point was of my post.  The point was that California got a one-time benefit from sales of stock made by rich people. That doesn't;t mean they're rolling in money. They are still hugely in debt which will continue for another three years according to that official.  Whether it was an average of 10%, 9.3%, or 13.x% doesn't matter. Those are insignificant details, distinctions without a difference.  He was just trolling and looking for an excuse to attack me personally rather than having an informed and intelligent debate.  That's game playing and a waste of my time.   Since the administrator won't do anything anymore about personal attacks, then I'll use the Ignore function.  I don't have time for that nonsense.

The exact percentage is important when one contemplates a move to a jurisdiction with lower taxes. And those rich Californians may still own a lot of shares, maybe they are staging their sales, and will sell more again this year. Another thing is that the CEO's and other top executives have to pay taxes when they vest their awarded shares. As long as they are being rewarded with company shares, they will pay the taxes at the end of the vesting period.

So now that Elon Musk moved to Texas, his taxes may be enough to clear Texas budget deficit.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5811 on: January 15, 2021, 09:56:01 am »

The exact percentage is important when one contemplates a move to a jurisdiction with lower taxes. And those rich Californians may still own a lot of shares, maybe they are staging their sales, and will sell more again this year. Another thing is that the CEO's and other top executives have to pay taxes when they vest their awarded shares. As long as they are being rewarded with company shares, they will pay the taxes at the end of the vesting period.

So now that Elon Musk moved to Texas, his taxes may be enough to clear Texas budget deficit.

We weren't discussing that. In any case, anyone who moves from California to Texas based on my post here without checking with his accountant deserves Texas.  :)

Regarding Musk, Texas has no income taxes,  That's why he's moving there.  On the other hand, he's bringing a Tesla plant with him,  I believe.  That will make Texas richer.  In any case, how do you know Texas has a budget deficit?  Did you check the state's legislature's budget reports?  After all, you wouldn't want to be criticized by any of the truth brigade here monitoring your posts.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5812 on: January 15, 2021, 10:41:15 am »

Well after constant no openings when trying to reserve an appt., my wife and I are now scheduled for the first vaccine shot Feb 10th here in New Jersey.  If they don't run out.  ;)

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5813 on: January 15, 2021, 10:41:54 am »

Better a “truth brigade” than a lies brigade.

Consistent lies are what brought the insurrectionists to Washington last week.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5814 on: January 15, 2021, 10:52:57 am »

Better a “truth brigade” than a lies brigade.

Consistent lies are what brought the insurrectionists to Washington last week.
So, Peter,  you think I'm an insurrectionist because I said that California collects 10% of capital gains profits and it's actually 9.7% to 13%?   It's that kind of silliness and holier-than-thou "truth" attacks that are killing LuLa and forcing people to leave entirely.   

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5815 on: January 15, 2021, 11:23:37 am »

as the rates vary from 9.3% to 13.x%.

One of the difficulties in having a back and forth discussion with Alan is that he doesn't read with enough attention and often misunderstands and misquotes. An example is what he wrote above. I didn't say that was the range of tax rates for capital gains. The rate can vary from 1% to 13.3%.

I wrote: "California taxes capital gains as ordinary income and they are taxed based on which of the highly progressive tax brackets (marginal tax rate) in which you fall." "If you file as a married couple making $599,000 or less the rate would be 9.3% or less depending on your exact amount of income. Joint returns with income that exceeds $1 million, the portion above $1 million would be taxed at 13.3%".

I was trying to indicate to him was that it was not a fixed rate, but variable and could be more or less. I gave an example and specified that the rate could be less depending on income, but he reads it differently by ignoring the "or less". This is one of the frustrating things with Alan, having to waste time getting him to understand what you've already written. To which his standard response is "insignificant details" or a "distinctions without a difference". Then having to explain why they are not insignificant and why you bothered to include details—it is maddeningly tedious.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 01:47:15 pm by TechTalk »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5816 on: January 15, 2021, 11:31:01 am »

So, Peter,  you think I'm an insurrectionist because I said that California collects 10% of capital gains profits...

Good grief, Alan.  Please show me where I even hinted that I thought you are an insurrectionist.

I said that it was lies that fomented insurrection.  NOT “your” lies. 

In fact, you received recent information on the explicit difference between lies and false assertions.  It seems you didn’t learn.

Or won’t.

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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5817 on: January 15, 2021, 11:41:08 am »

So now that Elon Musk moved to Texas, his taxes may be enough to clear Texas budget deficit.

A well written article on the Texas budget deficit with a bit of background history, which is always helpful in providing context to the reader.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/texas-budget-deficit-hegar
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5818 on: January 15, 2021, 12:01:56 pm »

He was just playing word games. In any case, my post had nothing to do with an exact percentage.  That's not what the point was of my post.

My reply to Alan was not about the rate. My point to him was that it is not a fixed rate but variable. He often misses the point others are making then takes off on yet another tangent.

The point was that California got a one-time benefit from sales of stock made by rich people.

A statement which only makes sense if you assume that rich people will never sell stock at a profit again thus creating capital gains to be taxed. Kind of a silly notion.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5819 on: January 15, 2021, 12:43:18 pm »

Good grief, Alan.  Please show me where I even hinted that I thought you are an insurrectionist.

I said that it was lies that fomented insurrection.  NOT “your” lies. 

In fact, you received recent information on the explicit difference between lies and false assertions.  It seems you didn’t learn.

Or won’t.


My point was there are too many "aha gotcha" posts here about non-important factoids that some people use as an excuse to personally attack another poster's veracity. The claim my 10% was a lie because it was really 9.7% was one of them. We're talking about an incidental statistic yet it's turned into something that resembles insurrection only to demean the poster.  It destroys the conversation and creates unnecessary insults and defensive responses.  It leaves no room for hyperbole or normal conversation. Some people, insist you double-check your facts before posting as if this is a physics paper that requires peer review before publishing.   It's a turn-off and chases people away from LuLa. The site is dying because of it.   
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