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Author Topic: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens  (Read 2443 times)

Balafre

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UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« on: March 24, 2022, 08:38:01 pm »

Hi! I use the Schneider 120 PC/TS on my P1 XF, and it's a really important lens to me. It only synchs to 125 and often mounting it sends the XF into a tailspin that requires a full setting recalibration. Pain and confusion aside, this lovely lens yields incredible shots that nothing else in their lens-line up can replicate.

What I'm keen to know please is:

1) Why oh Why have P1 discontinued this lens? It is such a valuable part of a professional lineup with irreplaceable artistic and technical capabilities. Why would P1 debilitate the utility of their professional system and not have a better replacement as a substitute?? It seems so incredibly stupid.

One can't actually buy it new any more yet the 120 PC/TS persists in P1's standard publicity shots portraying their lens line-up.

As evidence I present some examples (also see screen saves)

https://dtcommercialphoto.com/phase-one-focal-plane-lenses/

HELLO PHASE ONE! What's your logic please?

2) Leica make a very similar piece - (*According to this remnant blog they in fact collaborated with Schneider https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2012/09/photokina-2012-day-2-the-leica-s-part-2/) - hence the specs and even the operational design are identical to Schneider's but the only outward difference is in filter sizes, Schneider at 104mm, Leica at 95 mm.

3) If/when my existing Schneider 120mm dies, is the Leica able to be used in lieu, via any form of adapter from Leica MF to P1 XF in the same way there was a Hasselblad/Zeiss CF to P1 XF adapter and a Mamiya to Leica adapter which ironically allowed the Schneider variant of this lens to be used on the Leica S mount ? (https://leicastoremiami.com/collections/s-system-lens-accessories/products/leica-s-adapter-m645-for-mamiya-645-lenses?variant=345677189)

I await with bated breath ....

Many thanks and best wishes

Charles

« Last Edit: June 06, 2022, 05:41:04 pm by Balafre »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2022, 04:41:10 pm »

This lens (120 PC TS) was a rehousing of the Schneider 120mm digitar large format lens. Schneider's large format lens division manufactured the lens cells. Schneider closed their large format lens division a few years ago.

The other Schneider LS BR lenses are manufactured by Phase One in Japan with Schneider providing Design Consultation and additional Quality Control.

I agree the 120 PC TS should no longer be present in the product/promotional "family" photo – I suspect the reason is it's surprisingly expensive (in time and money) to replace all your hero shots, though I think it would be best that they go ahead and do so. Currently we have it on our own website because we sometimes have old new inventory, refurbished, or used inventory for lenses that are not available new from P1 itself. But I'll have the web folks update to remove the "buy now" link.

Different strokes for different folks I guess – The 120TS was never my favorite lens – it couldn't natively reach macro distances and the tilt/swing mechanism was too far off the optical axis, meaning even small adjustments would change composition. I personally much prefer a Cambo Actus or Arca Swiss Universalis: https://www.photo-digitaltransitions.com/arca-swiss-universalis-11-reasons-youll-love-it/ - even when the 120TS was available new we sold a ton more universals and actus than 120TS.

Edit: our website has been updated. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. If you ever notice something wrong on our website shoot us a note!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 04:52:27 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Balafre

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2022, 05:15:57 pm »

Doug thank you ! - you're absolutely right about painful re-composition. Have read your link. Anything that can speed up work repays itself. Can you please DM me so we can talk more about this? It would need to run my P1 IQ3-100. Until soon, C.
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Smoothjazz

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2022, 10:50:14 pm »

Balafre,

Can you show us examples of photos with the 120mm TS lens? Just curious what you can accomplish with this type of lens- could you also use a regular 120mm macro Schneider lens- which I have- and use focus stacking for similar effect?

Thanks for your reply

John
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Balafre

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2022, 04:02:46 am »

John, I use it off a stand only, for selective and oblique planes of focus, on jewellery and food and expensive clothes, and if used for maximising DOF can do in one shot what would require many in Focus Stacking. But the chap from DT was right, it's not well set up to be a macro lens; I use an #2 extension ring for closer or higher magnification work - Capture Integration have some great articles on this.

https://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-120mm-ts-for-p1mamiya-645-re-evaluated/

I have the BR 120 mm f4 macro too, and it's glorious, with caveats - notably that Schneider's own top B+W POL filters, when fitted to their own flagship BR 120 mm lens, couldn't accommodate their own lens hood. The tolerances were out. Utterly bewildering how they could let that one slip by. It was either very sloppy design or quality control, or both perhaps! I had to have the filter frame ground down by a genius artisan at Panavision Auckland, in order to use both hood and filter simultaneously....
« Last Edit: June 06, 2022, 05:44:09 pm by Balafre »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2022, 12:41:17 pm »

John, I use it off a stand only, for selective and oblique planes of focus, on jewellery and food, and if used for maximising DOF can do in one shot what would require many in Focus Stacking. But the chap from DT was right, it's not well set up to be a macro lens; I use an #2 extension ring for closer or higher magnification work - Capture Integration have some great articles on this.



Thanks Charles - below is a link to an article I wrote on the Schneider 120 TS. With the extension rings, I actually found it could be turned into a capable macro lens (probably somewhere around 1:2). It is a shame that the lens is discontinued.

https://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-120mm-ts-for-p1mamiya-645-re-evaluated/


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Balafre

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2022, 02:03:28 pm »

Steve  hi - and thank you. I'm well aware of the article and it inspired me to seek out an extension ring - a bit of homework identified the #2 as ideal, giving me the working distance and magnification I need and it's fantastic.
I've also referred someone else on this forum to that very article :))

I just don't understand P1's logic here - why diminish the utility of a system ?! It seems so stupid as they haven't replaced it with anything better.
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TechTalk

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2022, 08:34:57 pm »

...Why oh Why have P1 discontinued this lens? It is such a valuable part of professional lineup with irreplaceable artistic and technical capabilities. Why would P1 debilitate the utility of their professional system and not have a better replacement as a substitute?? It seems so incredibly stupid...

...HELLO PHASE ONE! What's your logic please?...

...I await with bated breath ....

...I just don't understand P1's logic here - why diminish the utility of a system ?! It seems so stupid as they haven't replaced it with anything better.

The logic is that unlike the lenses which have been co-branded in a licensing agreement with Schneider, but designed and manufactured by Mamiya or Phase One, in Japan; the Schneider PC TS Apo-Digitar 120mm f/5.6 lens was actually designed and manufactured by Schneider in Germany who sold the lens in Mamiya M645 mount to Mamiya and Phase One for distribution thru their channels. Phase One cannot distribute and sell this lens if Schneider no longer produces it for them.

Hopefully this will ease your concerns and calm your "bated breath" regarding what seems (to you) to be Phase One's "incredibly stupid" lack of "logic" which will "debilitate the utility of their professional system".

As for the Leica 120mm f/5.6 TS-APO-Elmar-S lens, it is currently available for new purchase. Whatever agreements they might possibly have with Schneider, regarding any intellectual property related to lens design or production, are not available to the public.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/schneiderkrueznachtslens

Should you wish to go the view camera route, Capture Integration has well designed product pages for the various Arca-Swiss and Cambo Actus models which includes comparison of their specifications.

https://www.captureintegration.com/arca-swiss-view-camera

https://www.captureintegration.com/cambo-actus

They have also offered Sinar (a Leica Camera AG subsidiary since 2013) in the past, but I don't know what their current relationship may be with them. Older Sinar p2, p3, and x cameras can be retrofitted with a "Digital Fine Focus" mechanism for a flat rate which will also "cover any repairs caused by regular wear and tear". This could add useful functionality and life to an older Sinar.

https://sinar.swiss/products/cameras/p3-df-en-us

https://sinar.swiss/products/cameras/p3-df-en-us/Upgrade
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Balafre

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2022, 09:02:58 pm »

I appreciate your detailed reply and wanted to thank you now, and signal my intention to respond coherently soon, when time allows. Thank You again.
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Balafre

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2022, 12:08:10 am »


I thank you and defer to your superior technical expertise. If you are who I think you are, then I understand why you champion P1. So do I, as I have a considerable and ongoing investment in C1/XF/IQ3-100/5x Schneider BR lenses & copious accessories. Maintaining a fluid workflow is crucial to profitability, so with the XF/IQ3 high-up overhead on a stand and being able to simply swap between the 120 TS/PC, the 120 Macro, the 80 mm and applying the #2 extension ring to any of them at any point during one continuous tethered session of the same subject allows a wide folio of different looks that can all be driven off several large monitors.

Yet I assure you, were I to lose the Schneider 120 TS/PC and have to dismantle the XF from the stand and swap over to another system to regain the TS/PC facility, possibly also losing the ability to focus on a 27" high res monitor and instead relying on the small back screen of the IQ3, this most definitely is an upheaved workflow, a serious loss of utility, ergo, a debilitated system.

So Schneider have chosen not to make them anymore. So be it. P1 may not have exhorted them strongly enough to retain manufacture for them as it's loss is - even if only to me - a step backwards for the system.

The bottom line therefore is this please : as the Leica and Schneider 120 mm TS/PC lenses are essentially operationally and technically identical, and there was an adapter made that allowed the Schneider lens variant to be used on Leica S bodies, does an adapter exist please that allows this Leica lens to be used on the P1 XF camera body? As Leica still make their version, it would seamlessly dovetail into my workflow.
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TechTalk

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2022, 01:46:00 pm »

...If you are who I think you are...

I'm not.

then I understand why you champion P1.

I don't. Your suggestion that I do may amuse some with whom I've had past discussions on this forum. Phase One hardware or Capture One software have never held any appeal for my needs and preferences, though I can readily see why they have appeal and are the choice of others for their use and preferences. In the same way, I can see the unique virtues and attraction of what Pentax, Fuji, Leica, and Hasselblad offer to users of their medium format systems.

Starting from the 4 megapixel Leaf DCB II thru the 400 megapixel Hasselblad H6D-400c, I have been using multi-shot systems. My abbreviated digital capture progression being multi-shot platforms from: Leaf to Sinar to Imacon to Hasselblad combined with Hasselblad V or H bodies or Sinar p2/p3 cameras over the course of the past 25 years. There was some significant time spent, in the early years, with Kodak DCS cameras and a back. I also spent some months, along the way, using a Phase One camera, back, and software. But for me, the majority of my time has been spent with a multi-shot system and that has been and remains my personal preference. I've also found the Hasselblad HTS 1.5 tilt/shift adapter to be quite useful for some of my needs. I can tell you that every digital road I've traveled has had curves and potholes, but the more tightly integrated systems have had smoother pavement.

As some others may know, I've pushed back against what I've perceived as misconceptions or misinformation regarding the Hasselblad H3D/H4D/H5D/H6D system and its evolution from time to time on this forum. My perceptions and personal preferences aside, I have been consistent in supporting the value and usefulness of the overwhelming majority of product options offered from almost any manufacturer. I'm all for having options to choose from and the more different and distinct those are the happier it will make me.

So, it is with humble gratitude I wish to thank all of the manufacturers that have survived so far, in the digital age and arena, to give me all of the great options that I have today. I'm quite sure that it has been a very difficult road for each of them including many difficult decisions. One other thing of which I'm fairly certain, however, is that whatever it is we rely on and enjoy using today is eventually going to be discontinued due to changes in the marketplace of consumer demand and the financial realities which always seem to insert themselves into the lasting enjoyment of life's pleasures.

Like everyone else, I have personal preferences and priorities regarding the features and capabilities of the equipment that I choose to use now or would like to see in the future. On the other hand, I have absolutely no expectation that any manufacturer would benefit by following a product path and evolution that satisfies my personal preferences. People are certainly free to criticize manufacturers for what they do or don't do and to speculate as to why they make those decisions. I just jump in with my perspective once in awhile. I do not consider myself a champion or defender of any particular brand or product, though others may see it in a different light. Regardless of brand, where I find something that I think is either a misconception or inaccurate, I might take the time to offer my view... or I might just take a pass, as there is only so much time and there is so much internet!
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Balafre

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2022, 04:27:11 pm »

Hello - the post you requested be removed has been, and mea culpa for my editing failure.
I enjoyed your dissertation, but won't dwell on it as it's periperhal to my key question that remains unanswered.

Namely : ... as the Leica and Schneider 120 mm TS/PC lenses are essentially operationally and technically identical, and there was an adapter made that allowed the Schneider lens variant to be used on Leica S bodies, does an adapter exist please that allows this Leica lens to be used on the P1 XF camera body?

Can anyone please answer this ?



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TechTalk

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2022, 04:35:09 pm »

...So Schneider have chosen not to make them anymore. So be it. P1 may not have exhorted them strongly enough to retain manufacture for them as it's loss is - even if only to me - a step backwards for the system.

The bottom line therefore is this please : as the Leica and Schneider 120 mm TS/PC lenses are essentially operationally and technically identical, and there was an adapter made that allowed the Schneider lens variant to be used on Leica S bodies, does an adapter exist please that allows this Leica lens to be used on the P1 XF camera body? As Leica still make their version, it would seamlessly dovetail into my workflow.

The Leica 120mm f/5.6 TS-APO-Elmar-S lens is available for purchase new. Whether it is still in production, and if so by whom, is a different question for which I have no knowledge or answer. A product being currently available for sale doesn't necessarily reflect its current or future production status.

As for a readymade adapter to mount Leica S lenses to a Phase One body, I'm not aware of one. The difference in Flange Focal Distance would eliminate the ability of a Leica S lens (53 mm Flange Focal Distance) to focus at infinity on a Mamiya/Phase One body which has a 63.30 mm Flange Focal Distance. A lens + adapter combination which cannot focus at infinity may work for your purposes, but the market would be limited for such a device. I think you would need to have such an adapter custom made due to lack of consumer demand.

https://briansmith.com/flange-focal-distance-guide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance
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Balafre

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2022, 04:55:50 pm »

This is most appreciated and you are very kind - thank you.
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TechTalk

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2022, 05:34:14 pm »

Happy to share light where I am able.
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bpepz

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2022, 05:00:59 pm »

does anyone actually have some examples of the Schneider 120mm APO? People talk a lot about it but I never see anyone post photos shot with it.
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Balafre

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2022, 03:52:52 pm »

Mea Culpa.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 01:06:07 am by Balafre »
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Balafre

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Re: UPDATED: Schneider vs Leica 120mm PC TS APO f/5.6 ASPH Lens
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2022, 09:42:28 pm »

PLUS
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 09:59:08 pm by Balafre »
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