Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 126173 times)

Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2700 on: October 22, 2020, 01:49:05 pm »

Well, anything is possible. I mean some of the stuff you believe about Trump is pretty incredible too. I have been trying to keep up with the Hunter Biden story. So far I think Fox has verified one, of the thousands, of the emails that are supposed to be on Hunter's Biden's laptop, by an anonymous source. I mean most of the time you are apoplectic when the press uses an anonymous source to describe something Trump did or said, but here you seem to think it is okay. The problem is no one has seen Hunter's laptop, or any (supposedly except one) thousands of emails, photos, and videos that are suppose to be on it. Yet your super-sleuth mind has figured the whole conspiracy out.

From Joes post above...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hunter-biden-business-partner-email-genuine-joe-biden-advice

Second, Lots of people have see the contents of the Hunter Biden hard drive.  Fox is covering it now that there eis confirmation. IIRC Rudy said any news organization who wanted to look could could come see it.  Papers like the NYT wanted him to release the drive to them.  I don't blame him for saying no to that.  But that gives them an out.

Lets face the brutal fact here.  The MSM is burying this to protect Biden and to make sure no one asks the hard questions.  This is almosty a bigger story than Joe and Hunter.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2701 on: October 22, 2020, 01:54:32 pm »

I read on Breitbart and Fox that the FBI has had Hunter Biden's laptop for ten or so months. Presumably they are looking into something. But is possible they just put it in a drawer somewhere and forgot about it. Yet, presumably Ratclifffe has looked at all the stuff on it. Otherwise how do you explain his conclusion that the Hunter Biden story in not a part of Russia's disinformation campaign. Or maybe Ratcliffe is just lying because he is one of Trump's lackeys who doesn't have one iota of intelligence experience, you know, just a political hack.
There may not be enough evidence.  Or, after the fiasco before the last election with Hillary and her emails and server with the FBI's Comey, the new FBI director was smartened up.  He doesn't want to look foolish like Comey did, or as corrupt. Better to let it die quietly. If Biden wins, he'll bury it.  And if Trump wins, no one will care anyways.

faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2702 on: October 22, 2020, 02:02:07 pm »

Second, Lots of people have see the contents of the Hunter Biden hard drive.

A few people have said they have seen the stuff. So where's the stuff? I mean if the commie/lib media said they had Don Jr.'s laptop, and there was a bunch of sinister stuff on it, not to mention child porn, you would probably want to see it too. But maybe not. Maybe you would be content with CNN verifying all the stuff the NYT said it found.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 06:16:54 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2703 on: October 22, 2020, 02:50:50 pm »

But worse than that for Joe Biden was that he used his position of VP to get the Ukrainian prosecutor fired who was investigating Burisma

That is so utterly and plainly false based on every single bit of credible evidence and basic common sense that it is both laughable and sad. Laughable in that it is so clearly false and sad that some are so blinded by their ideology that they would make that claim. Sadder still if they are so blind as to actually believe it.
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2704 on: October 22, 2020, 02:54:44 pm »

There may not be enough evidence.  Or, after the fiasco before the last election with Hillary and her emails and server with the FBI's Comey, the new FBI director was smartened up.  He doesn't want to look foolish like Comey did, or as corrupt. Better to let it die quietly. If Biden wins, he'll bury it.  And if Trump wins, no one will care anyways.

That's always possible. I mean I could think up dozens of different scenarios that were good and bad for Biden. Tell me, do you believe in the Illuminati, because that's probably where I'd start. I have read a lot of Dan Brown novels. I am thinking about writing one of my own. For example, I am thinking of substituting this presidential candidate's son's laptop for the Holy Grail, and seeing where that takes me. I was sort of thinking about saying Interpol got a hold of the laptop and hid it in the crypt of a medieval church in Scotland.  I don't know. Maybe that is too derivative.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 05:58:24 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2705 on: October 22, 2020, 02:57:47 pm »

Former US Lt. Tony Bobulinski, and Dem donor, who was a former business associate of Hunter Biden has now released a statement stating that Joe Biden often signed off on Hunter's business deals and was involved with a deal with the Chinese Government.  Also, both Hunter and Joe received money from the CCP through back door deals that he only found out about after the fact, and that they both lied to him about when confronted. 

Hunter Biden business partner calls email 'genuine,' says Hunter sought dad's advice on deals

This is not going away, and is only looking worse and worse for Biden. 

He's corrupt, and due to his conflict of interests with China, our leading rival, is not fit for office. 

FYI, Harris has also been listed in emails naming her a key contact for Hunter's business ventures. 

Harris, prominent Democrats listed as 'key contacts' for Biden family business venture projects

This reeks of Chicago style political corruption. 

Meanwhile ...

Dems Boycott ACB Confirmation to Floor For Vote

... even though a majority of Americans now want her appointed before the election. 
The plot thickens.

Hunter Biden's ex-business partner says Joe DID know about son's deal with Chinese energy firm and IS 'the big guy' in email set to get 10% cut of the deal
Tony Bobulinski said he was Hunter Biden's business partner in 2017
Bobulinski said Hunter brought him into joint venture with Chinese energy firm
Hunter Biden was involved with China's largest private energy company CEFC
He was given equity, ownership of a holding company and huge consulting fees
He also allegedly held a share of the equity for his father Joe Biden
Sources told Fox News that a person identified only as 'the big guy' in an email about equity payments was the former Vice President
Hunter was dealing with CEFC chairman Ye Jianming who has since vanished
Bobulinski said in his statement that 'the big guy' was indeed Joe Biden
He also confirmed authenticity of emails recovered from Hunter Biden's laptop

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8866713/Hunter-Bidens-ex-business-partner-says-Joe-Biden-talked-son-deal-Chinese-firm.html

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2706 on: October 22, 2020, 03:01:41 pm »

That is so utterly and plainly false based on every single bit of credible evidence and basic common sense that it is both laughable and sad. Laughable in that it is so clearly false and sad that some are so blinded by their ideology that they would make that claim. Sadder still if they are so blind as to actually believe it.
But he did get the prosecutor fired who was investigating his son's firm Burisma. That's a public fact. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... 

faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2707 on: October 22, 2020, 03:10:34 pm »

But he did get the prosecutor fired who was investigating his son's firm Burisma. That's a public fact. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ...

I thought the Senate Intelligence Committee looked into all that, and didn't find anything amiss.  That's why they didn't hold a great big press conference to tell us all about their findings. That was a couple of months ago.

Funny thing about those public facts too. Sometimes they aren't true. There are probably a lot of Democrats who believed the existence of the Trump pee-pee tape was a public fact. I mean it was referred to in the Steele dossier and everything. Just saying.

And by the way, what's this thing you have about poultry?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 06:10:58 pm by faberryman »
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kers

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2708 on: October 22, 2020, 03:18:39 pm »

But he did get the prosecutor fired who was investigating his son's firm Burisma. That's a public fact. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ...
You know that it is Joe Biden that is the candidate? Not his son?
The idea is that he replaces the complete Trump family at the White House  ( Me, Mum and Dad)
- and replace them -
not by members of his family, but by people that actually have some knowledge in their specific field.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2709 on: October 22, 2020, 03:25:47 pm »

A few people have said they have seen the stuff. So where's the stuff? I mean if the commie/lib media said they had Don Jr.'s laptop, and there was a bunch of sinister stuff on it, not to mention child porn, you would probably want to see the stuff too. But maybe not. Maybe you would be content with CNN verifying all the stuff the NYT said it found.

You want to know where it is, ask the MSM. It appears they are not interested in showing it.  If Rudy offered it and they decided not to take him up on it, who’s fault is that.  They don’t WANT you to see it.  Is that so hard to understand? 

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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2710 on: October 22, 2020, 03:39:12 pm »

You know that it is Joe Biden that is the candidate? Not his son?
The idea is that he replaces the complete Trump family at the White House  ( Me, Mum and Dad)
- and replace them -
not by members of his family, but by people that actually have some knowledge in their specific field.

Joe Biden was Vice President when he got the prosecutor fired.  If he did that to protect his son and what may even be some of his own money, it's a federal violation.  At a minimum, it should be considered by the public before they vote for him in much the same way as potential violations claimed about Trump. 

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2711 on: October 22, 2020, 03:40:44 pm »

You want to know where it is, ask the MSM. It appears they are not interested in showing it.  If Rudy offered it and they decided not to take him up on it, who’s fault is that.  They don’t WANT you to see it.  Is that so hard to understand? 


Who's MSM?

faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2712 on: October 22, 2020, 03:49:47 pm »

You want to know where it is, ask the MSM. It appears they are not interested in showing it.  If Rudy offered it and they decided not to take him up on it, who’s fault is that.  They don’t WANT you to see it.  Is that so hard to understand?

Well, if the NYT turned down Giuliani's offer of copies of thousands of photos, emails, and videos, I would take that into consideration. I would probably want to verify that Giuliani actually made the offer in good faith, and that the NYT actually turned him down. The other thing is, if Giuliani wanted the thousands of photo, emails, and videos to get out there so everyone could see them, why wouldn't he just tell the New York Post to release the stuff? I mean that way he wouldn't need to make another set of copies, and the New York Post could sell a lot of papers.  Making copies of that stuff has got to be tedious. Also, do you have any idea what law firms charge for copies? You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

I mean if Giuliani wants to nail Biden, and snatch victory from the the jaws of defeat, he might want to rethink his strategy. If Trump loses, what is Giuliani going to say? Not my fault, I offered the stuff to the NYT, and the NYT turned me down, so I just kept it in my briefcase.

I hate to be crass, but it sure looks like Giuliani and friends are just farting around. And when you are just farting around, people don't take you seriously. It could be that Giuliani can't focus on this Hunter Biden stuff because he still has his hand in his pants pretending he wants to get laid. That's a possibility.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 05:47:21 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2713 on: October 22, 2020, 04:28:05 pm »

Viktor Mykolayovych Shokin  is a former Prosecutor General of Ukraine. Having previously worked as an investigator for the Prosecutor General Office, he served as Prosecutor General for a year between 2015 and 2016.

He was removed from office in March 2016 by a vote in the Ukrainian Parliament following pressure from the European Union, the United States, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.

Shokin was appointed Prosecutor General of Ukraine on 10 February 2015, replacing Vitaly Yarema. He was a controversial appointee due to his perceived role in blocking prosecutions against those accused of shooting demonstrators in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. As Prosecutor General, he was accused of blocking major cases against allies and influential figures and hindering the fight against corruption in Ukraine.

Various street protests demanding Shokin's resignation were held.

Through 2015 and early 2016, domestic and international pressure (including from the IMF, the EU, and the EBRD) built for Shokin to be removed from office. The Obama administration withheld $1 billion in loan guarantees to pressure the Ukrainian government to remove Shokin from office. His Deputy Prosecutor, Vitaly Kasko, announced his resignation on 15 February 2016 denouncing the corruption and lawlessness of the Prosecutor's office. Shokin was also criticized in Ukraine for failing to prosecute snipers who killed demonstrators during the revolution, as well as for failing to investigate corrupt businesses.

On 16 February 2016, Shokin submitted a letter of resignation, although the next day an official of the prosecution office stated, "As far as I know he has taken a paid leave". On 19 February 2016 presidential press secretary Sviatoslav Tsegolko wrote on Twitter that the presidential administration had received an official letter of resignation from Shokin.

On 16 March 2016 an official of the prosecution office stated that Shokin had resumed his work. On the same day, his office carried out a raid against one of Ukraine's leading anti-corruption groups, the Anti-Corruption Action Center (AntAC), claiming that it had misappropriated aid money. AntAC was a frequent critic of the Prosecutor General's Office under Shokin. In one notorious case, two of Shokin's prosecutors were caught with stashes of diamonds, cash and valuables in their homes, likely indicating bribery. Prosecutors from another department of Shokin's office were fired or reassigned when they attempted to bring a prosecution against the so-called "diamond prosecutors".

On 28 March, protesters called for Shokin's firing, after his office was authorized by a Kiev court to investigate AntAC. Shokin was formally dismissed in a parliamentary vote on 29 March 2016. The European Union praised Shokin's dismissal due to a "lack of tangible results" of his office's investigations, and also because people in Shokin's office were themselves being investigated.

In 2012, the Ukrainian prosecutor general Viktor Pshonka began investigating Ukrainian oligarch Mykola Zlochevsky, owner of the natural gas company Burisma Holdings, over allegations of money laundering, tax evasion, and corruption during 2010–2012.

In 2015, Shokin became the prosecutor general, inheriting the investigation. The Obama administration and other governments and non-governmental organizations soon became concerned that Shokin was not adequately pursuing corruption in Ukraine, was protecting the political elite, and was regarded as "an obstacle to anti-corruption efforts". Among other issues, he was slow-walking the investigation into Zlochevsky and Burisma and, according to Zlochevsky's allies, using the threat of prosecution to try to solicit bribes from Mr. Zlochevsky and his team – to the extent that Obama officials were considering launching their own criminal investigation into the company for possible money laundering.

Shokin claimed in May 2019 that he had been investigating Burisma Holdings. However, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016 citing corruption in the office, provided documents to Bloomberg News indicating that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.

The investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, joined the board of directors of Burisma Holdings in 2014.

Representatives of the EU and the United States pressed Poroshenko for his removal, as did the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.

In March 2016 the Ukrainian Parliament voted overwhelmingly to remove Shokin, a decision which was welcomed by the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin

That's just the brief overview of how corrupt Viktor Shokin was and is. There is a huge voluminous record of evidence regarding his corruption and connections.

The broad condemnation of Shokin by: Republicans and Democrats in Congress, the U.S. and EU governments, the IMF and World Bank, the anticorruption groups and ordinary citizens of Ukraine, and finally the Ukrainian Parliament was not driven by Joe Biden. Vice-Presidents don't have any political power except to break tie votes in the Senate. Beyond that, Vice-Presidents are simply messengers for official U.S. policy that is decided by others.

The international effort to replace Shokin was driven by a desire to put Ukraine on a path to root out corruption in their country. The desire to make Ukraine less corrupt was to make it more tenable to support the Ukrainian war against Russian invasion. It's much more difficult to justify supporting the war effort of a corrupt government even when the cause, in this case Russian invasion, is justifiable. In addition, there is a strong desire among western democracies to see Ukraine become an acceptably functional democracy as part of the western alliance that opposes Russia's government of corrupt oligarchy rather than a mirror and subservient partner of Russia as the extraordinarily corrupt Russian dominated Ukrainian government was prior to their 2014 revolution.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 05:46:09 pm by TechTalk »
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PeterAit

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2714 on: October 22, 2020, 04:52:25 pm »

Here's some more inconvenient information for the Trumplets to ignore: 700 economists including seven Nobel winners, are urging Trump's defeat.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/22/economy/economists-oppose-trump-election/index.html

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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2715 on: October 22, 2020, 05:46:26 pm »

Viktor Mykolayovych Shokin  is a former Prosecutor General of Ukraine. Having previously worked as an investigator for the Prosecutor General Office, he served as Prosecutor General for a year between 2015 and 2016.

He was removed from office in March 2016 by a vote in the Ukrainian Parliament following pressure from the European Union, the United States, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.

Shokin was appointed Prosecutor General of Ukraine on 10 February 2015, replacing Vitaly Yarema. He was a controversial appointee due to his perceived role in blocking prosecutions against those accused of shooting demonstrators in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. As Prosecutor General, he was accused of blocking major cases against allies and influential figures and hindering the fight against corruption in Ukraine.

Various street protests demanding Shokin's resignation were held.

Through 2015 and early 2016, domestic and international pressure (including from the IMF, the EU, and the EBRD) built for Shokin to be removed from office. The Obama administration withheld $1 billion in loan guarantees to pressure the Ukrainian government to remove Shokin from office. His Deputy Prosecutor, Vitaly Kasko, announced his resignation on 15 February 2016 denouncing the corruption and lawlessness of the Prosecutor's office. Shokin was also criticized in Ukraine for failing to prosecute snipers who killed demonstrators during the revolution, as well as for failing to investigate corrupt businesses.

On 16 February 2016, Shokin submitted a letter of resignation, although the next day an official of the prosecution office stated, "As far as I know he has taken a paid leave". On 19 February 2016 presidential press secretary Sviatoslav Tsegolko wrote on Twitter that the presidential administration had received an official letter of resignation from Shokin.

On 16 March 2016 an official of the prosecution office stated that Shokin had resumed his work. On the same day, his office carried out a raid against one of Ukraine's leading anti-corruption groups, the Anti-Corruption Action Center (AntAC), claiming that it had misappropriated aid money. AntAC was a frequent critic of the Prosecutor General's Office under Shokin. In one notorious case, two of Shokin's prosecutors were caught with stashes of diamonds, cash and valuables in their homes, likely indicating bribery. Prosecutors from another department of Shokin's office were fired or reassigned when they attempted to bring a prosecution against the so-called "diamond prosecutors".

On 28 March, protesters called for Shokin's firing, after his office was authorized by a Kiev court to investigate AntAC. Shokin was formally dismissed in a parliamentary vote on 29 March 2016. The European Union praised Shokin's dismissal due to a "lack of tangible results" of his office's investigations, and also because people in Shokin's office were themselves being investigated.

In 2012, the Ukrainian prosecutor general Viktor Pshonka began investigating Ukrainian oligarch Mykola Zlochevsky, owner of the natural gas company Burisma Holdings, over allegations of money laundering, tax evasion, and corruption during 2010–2012.

In 2015, Shokin became the prosecutor general, inheriting the investigation. The Obama administration and other governments and non-governmental organizations soon became concerned that Shokin was not adequately pursuing corruption in Ukraine, was protecting the political elite, and was regarded as "an obstacle to anti-corruption efforts". Among other issues, he was slow-walking the investigation into Zlochevsky and Burisma and, according to Zlochevsky's allies, using the threat of prosecution to try to solicit bribes from Mr. Zlochevsky and his team – to the extent that Obama officials were considering launching their own criminal investigation into the company for possible money laundering.

Shokin claimed in May 2019 that he had been investigating Burisma Holdings. However, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016 citing corruption in the office, provided documents to Bloomberg News indicating that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.

The investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, joined the board of directors of Burisma Holdings in 2014.

Representatives of the EU and the United States pressed Poroshenko for his removal, as did the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.

In March 2016 the Ukrainian Parliament voted overwhelmingly to remove Shokin, a decision which was welcomed by the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin

That's just the brief overview of how corrupt Viktor Shokin was and is. There is a huge voluminous record of evidence regarding his corruption and connections.

The broad condemnation of Shokin by: Republicans and Democrats in Congress, the U.S. and EU governments, the IMF and World Bank, the anticorruption groups and ordinary citizens of Ukraine, and finally the Ukrainian Parliament was not driven by Joe Biden. Vice-Presidents don't have any political power except to break tie votes in the Senate. Beyond that, Vice-Presidents are simply messengers for official U.S. policy that is decided by others.

The international effort to replace Shokin was driven by a desire to put Ukraine on a path to root out corruption in their country. The desire to make Ukraine less corrupt was to make it more tenable to support the Ukrainian war against Russian invasion. It's much more difficult to justify supporting the war effort of a corrupt government even when the cause, in this case Russian invasion, is justifiable. In addition, there is a strong desire among western democracies to see Ukraine become an acceptably functional democracy as part of the western alliance that opposes Russia's government of corrupt oligarchy rather than a mirror of, and subservient partner to, Russia as the extraordinarily corrupt Russian dominated government was prior to the 2014 revolution in Ukraine.

So you want us to believe that VP Biden got the prosecutor fired because he was not doing his job investigating Burisma, the company Hunter Biden was getting millions from, so that Ukraine would install a prosecutor that would do a better job investigating Hunter's Burisma. 

I could just imagine a conversation that would have happened between Hunter and his father Joe.

"Gees Pop.  What are you doing to me?"  "The only reason Burisma was giving me millions was for you to cover our corrupt practices.  We were all fine with Shokin who wasn't investigating us.  Now that you got him fired, who knows what the new prosecutor will do to us."

Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2716 on: October 22, 2020, 05:50:13 pm »

Well, if the NYT turned down Giuliani's offer of copies of thousands of photos, emails, and videos, I would take that into consideration. I would probably want to verify that Giuliani actually made the offer in good faith, and that the NYT actually turned him down. The other thing is, if Giuliani wanted the thousands of photo, emails, and videos to get out there so everyone could see them, why wouldn't he just tell the New York Post to release the stuff? I mean that way he wouldn't need to make another set of copies, and the New York Post could sell a lot of papers.  Making copies of that stuff has got to be tedious. Also, do you have any idea what law firms charge for copies? You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

I mean if Giuliani wants to nail Biden, and snatch victory from the the jaws of defeat, he might want to rethink his strategy. If Trump loses, what is Giuliani going to say? Not my fault, I offered the stuff to the NYT, and the NYT turned me down, so I just kept it in my briefcase.

I hate to be crass, but it sure looks like Giuliani and friends are just farting around. And when you are just farting around, people don't take you seriously. It could be that Giuliani can't focus on this Hunter Biden stuff because he still has his hand in his pants pretending he wants to get laid. That's a possibility.

What flavor of kook aid is your favorite?
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2717 on: October 22, 2020, 05:51:03 pm »

Viktor Mykolayovych Shokin  is a former Prosecutor General of Ukraine. Having previously worked as an investigator for the Prosecutor General Office, he served as Prosecutor General for a year between 2015 and 2016...

It is a valiant effort, but I don't think the Trumpers are going to read all this, and if they did, they are certainly not going to believe it. But keep up the good fight, knowing some of us will.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2718 on: October 22, 2020, 05:51:41 pm »

Viktor Mykolayovych Shokin  is a former Prosecutor General of Ukraine. Having previously worked as an investigator for the Prosecutor General Office, he served as Prosecutor General for a year between 2015 and 2016.

He was removed from office in March 2016 by a vote in the Ukrainian Parliament following pressure from the European Union, the United States, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.

Shokin was appointed Prosecutor General of Ukraine on 10 February 2015, replacing Vitaly Yarema. He was a controversial appointee due to his perceived role in blocking prosecutions against those accused of shooting demonstrators in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. As Prosecutor General, he was accused of blocking major cases against allies and influential figures and hindering the fight against corruption in Ukraine.

Various street protests demanding Shokin's resignation were held.

Through 2015 and early 2016, domestic and international pressure (including from the IMF, the EU, and the EBRD) built for Shokin to be removed from office. The Obama administration withheld $1 billion in loan guarantees to pressure the Ukrainian government to remove Shokin from office. His Deputy Prosecutor, Vitaly Kasko, announced his resignation on 15 February 2016 denouncing the corruption and lawlessness of the Prosecutor's office. Shokin was also criticized in Ukraine for failing to prosecute snipers who killed demonstrators during the revolution, as well as for failing to investigate corrupt businesses.

On 16 February 2016, Shokin submitted a letter of resignation, although the next day an official of the prosecution office stated, "As far as I know he has taken a paid leave". On 19 February 2016 presidential press secretary Sviatoslav Tsegolko wrote on Twitter that the presidential administration had received an official letter of resignation from Shokin.

On 16 March 2016 an official of the prosecution office stated that Shokin had resumed his work. On the same day, his office carried out a raid against one of Ukraine's leading anti-corruption groups, the Anti-Corruption Action Center (AntAC), claiming that it had misappropriated aid money. AntAC was a frequent critic of the Prosecutor General's Office under Shokin. In one notorious case, two of Shokin's prosecutors were caught with stashes of diamonds, cash and valuables in their homes, likely indicating bribery. Prosecutors from another department of Shokin's office were fired or reassigned when they attempted to bring a prosecution against the so-called "diamond prosecutors".

On 28 March, protesters called for Shokin's firing, after his office was authorized by a Kiev court to investigate AntAC. Shokin was formally dismissed in a parliamentary vote on 29 March 2016. The European Union praised Shokin's dismissal due to a "lack of tangible results" of his office's investigations, and also because people in Shokin's office were themselves being investigated.

In 2012, the Ukrainian prosecutor general Viktor Pshonka began investigating Ukrainian oligarch Mykola Zlochevsky, owner of the natural gas company Burisma Holdings, over allegations of money laundering, tax evasion, and corruption during 2010–2012.

In 2015, Shokin became the prosecutor general, inheriting the investigation. The Obama administration and other governments and non-governmental organizations soon became concerned that Shokin was not adequately pursuing corruption in Ukraine, was protecting the political elite, and was regarded as "an obstacle to anti-corruption efforts". Among other issues, he was slow-walking the investigation into Zlochevsky and Burisma and, according to Zlochevsky's allies, using the threat of prosecution to try to solicit bribes from Mr. Zlochevsky and his team – to the extent that Obama officials were considering launching their own criminal investigation into the company for possible money laundering.

Shokin claimed in May 2019 that he had been investigating Burisma Holdings. However, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016 citing corruption in the office, provided documents to Bloomberg News indicating that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.

The investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, joined the board of directors of Burisma Holdings in 2014.

Representatives of the EU and the United States pressed Poroshenko for his removal, as did the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.

In March 2016 the Ukrainian Parliament voted overwhelmingly to remove Shokin, a decision which was welcomed by the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin

That's just the brief overview of how corrupt Viktor Shokin was and is. There is a huge voluminous record of evidence regarding his corruption and connections.

The broad condemnation of Shokin by: Republicans and Democrats in Congress, the U.S. and EU governments, the IMF and World Bank, the anticorruption groups and ordinary citizens of Ukraine, and finally the Ukrainian Parliament was not driven by Joe Biden. Vice-Presidents don't have any political power except to break tie votes in the Senate. Beyond that, Vice-Presidents are simply messengers for official U.S. policy that is decided by others.

The international effort to replace Shokin was driven by a desire to put Ukraine on a path to root out corruption in their country. The desire to make Ukraine less corrupt was to make it more tenable to support the Ukrainian war against Russian invasion. It's much more difficult to justify supporting the war effort of a corrupt government even when the cause, in this case Russian invasion, is justifiable. In addition, there is a strong desire among western democracies to see Ukraine become an acceptably functional democracy as part of the western alliance that opposes Russia's government of corrupt oligarchy rather than a mirror and subservient partner of Russia as the extraordinarily corrupt Russian dominated Ukrainian government was prior to their 2014 revolution.

Wow, I never know Shokin was working for the Chinese too.  Imagine that.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2719 on: October 22, 2020, 05:53:28 pm »

It is a valiant effort, but I don't think the Trumpers are going to read all this, and if they did, they are certainly not going to believe it. But keep up the good fight, knowing some of us will.

Shokin is old news, but you are right it’s a valiant attempt by Wilfred to try and change the subject. 

Too bad he failed miserably. 
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