Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 110723 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1620 on: September 23, 2020, 12:49:14 pm »

From the other side of the Atlantic, two things strike me right now: The Republican double standard over the nomination for the Supreme Court and Trump's comments about electoral fraud if he loses.

Firstly, to tell Obama he couldn't nominate several months before the election, but four years on insist Trump can, is breathtakingly dishonest. Republicans should be ashamed to go down this road.

Secondly, Trumps' claim of forthcoming voter fraud, sans evidence, whilst simultaneously allowing Republican states to attempt to gerrymander the election through voter suppression, is an attempt to undermine democracy itself. I seriously fear for my friends in the US, of whatever political persuasion. I foresee violence ahead. Keep safe, folks.
I'm shocked, simply shocked, that politics has overruled promises and created double standards.

However, while it's true that the Republicans reversed themselves, so did the Democrats. After all, they argued when Obama nominated Merrick Garland in Obama's last year,  that supreme court justices should be appointed in the year before elections.  Biden's even argued that point years ago and then as well. So both sides want it both ways.  That's politics. In any case, the constitution requires the president to nominate replacements and the senate to advise and consent.  I'm sure the Democrats would do exactly what the Republicans are doing if the situation was reversed.

Regarding voter fraud, there was fraud just a few miles from my house in New Jersey a few months ago.  19% of the votes in a local election were fraudulent and thrown out.  Candidates and others were arrested for violating election laws.  They were in effect stuffing the ballot boxes with phony votes sent through the mail,  the very thing Trump is concerned about.  Sending unsolicited ballots to everyone on polling lists, including the dead and voters who moved and can no longer vote in their old election districts where they moved from, means that many more ballots than voters will be sent out.  This opens the whole process to fraud, double voting, etc.. 

Regarding violence, 98% of the burning and looting has come from the left and Democrats.

John Camp

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1621 on: September 23, 2020, 01:00:02 pm »

From the other side of the Atlantic, two things strike me right now: The Republican double standard over the nomination for the Supreme Court and Trump's comments about electoral fraud if he loses.

Firstly, to tell Obama he couldn't nominate several months before the election, but four years on insist Trump can, is breathtakingly dishonest. Republicans should be ashamed to go down this road.

Secondly, Trumps' claim of forthcoming voter fraud, sans evidence, whilst simultaneously allowing Republican states to attempt to gerrymander the election through voter suppression, is an attempt to undermine democracy itself. I seriously fear for my friends in the US, of whatever political persuasion. I foresee violence ahead. Keep safe, folks.

The Republicans are breathtakingly hypocritical, but this derives from positions that both parties have taken. Eventually, I believe it will destroy the Republican Party, which is currently hanging on by its fingernails. About the Democrats, I don't know what to think. Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi, both, in their own ways, characterize the idea that the important thing is not an America where we're trying to live up to an ideal, but the important thing is simply raw power to exercise however they think they'd like to do that. There was nothing illegal about the way that McConnell refused to have hearings on Obama's Supreme County nomination, it was simply an exercise of power that was morally, but not legally corrupt. Nor is there anything illegal about the idea of replacing Ginsburg before the election, as hypocritical as it may be, considering the Republicans previous position. Again, it's simply a display of power. However, Republican power perches on a dwindling base, and when it falls, it's unlikely to ever recover -- a new party may have to be invented to represent conservative thought in America, since in its various evolutions, the Republican Party has actually become a populist party, rather than a conservative party, and there are severe difference between those positions.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1622 on: September 23, 2020, 01:03:51 pm »

Regarding violence, 98% of the burning and looting has come from the left and Democrats.

Really?
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Peter McLennan

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1623 on: September 23, 2020, 01:25:20 pm »

Really?

Quote
Regarding violence, 98% of the burning and looting has come from the left and Democrats.

Please quit making stuff up. We need proof, please Alan. Otherwise it's just BS. Anyone can say anything they like on the Internet. 

Without substantiation, verification, it's at best meaningless noise.  At worst, it's destabilizing and destructive of security for everyone.

.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1624 on: September 23, 2020, 01:34:40 pm »

Please quit making stuff up. We need proof, please Alan. Otherwise it's just BS. Anyone can say anything they like on the Internet. 

Without substantiation, verification, it's at best meaningless noise.  At worst, it's destabilizing and destructive of security for everyone.

.
Yes. 98% of the violence comes from the left.  You really need to expand the cable stations you're watching.  Who do you think have been looting and burning down stores and property?

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1625 on: September 23, 2020, 01:39:12 pm »

The Republicans are breathtakingly hypocritical, but this derives from positions that both parties have taken. Eventually, I believe it will destroy the Republican Party, which is currently hanging on by its fingernails. About the Democrats, I don't know what to think. Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi, both, in their own ways, characterize the idea that the important thing is not an America where we're trying to live up to an ideal, but the important thing is simply raw power to exercise however they think they'd like to do that. There was nothing illegal about the way that McConnell refused to have hearings on Obama's Supreme County nomination, it was simply an exercise of power that was morally, but not legally corrupt. Nor is there anything illegal about the idea of replacing Ginsburg before the election, as hypocritical as it may be, considering the Republicans previous position. Again, it's simply a display of power. However, Republican power perches on a dwindling base, and when it falls, it's unlikely to ever recover -- a new party may have to be invented to represent conservative thought in America, since in its various evolutions, the Republican Party has actually become a populist party, rather than a conservative party, and there are severe difference between those positions.
I think the parties are changing.  But I'm no longer sure it's changing the way you assume.  The Democrats seem to be moving to be the party of socialism, wealth distribution, and the left.  The Republicans seem to be softening their positions and starting to seem like the old Democrats.  It may turn out that the majority of people, who are basically middle of the roaders, could move into the Republican camp, leaving a minority of people on the left and some non-whites with the Democrats.

Time will tell.

Chairman Bill

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1626 on: September 23, 2020, 01:59:23 pm »

The Democrats seem to be moving to be the party of socialism, wealth distribution, and the left.

This is an example of how skewed rightwards US politics is. It's very similar here in the UK. Anything left of Ghengis Khan is full-bloodied Stalinism with gulags, salt mines and tractor-factories.

Seriously, your Democrats are not much different from our (pre-Brexit) Conservatives or German Christian Democrats. That's our right-wing. Our left-wing is definitely not socialist.

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1627 on: September 23, 2020, 02:03:34 pm »

The Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) is a think tank based in Washington, D.C., in the United States. CSIS was founded as the "Center for Strategic and International Studies" of Georgetown University in 1962. The center conducts policy studies and strategic analyses of political, economic and security issues throughout the world, with a specific focus on issues concerning international relations, trade, technology, finance, energy and geostrategy.

In the University of Pennsylvania's 2019 Global Go To Think Tanks Report, CSIS is ranked the number one think tank in the United States across all fields, the "Top Defense and National Security Think Tank" in the world, and the 4th best think tank in the world overall. CSIS has been named the number one think tank for Defense and National Security for the past seven years, and has been declared the 'Center of Excellence'.

Since its founding, CSIS "has been dedicated to finding ways to sustain American prominence and prosperity as a force for good in the world", according to its website. CSIS is officially a bipartisan think tank with scholars that represent varying points of view across the political spectrum. The think tank is known for inviting well-known foreign policy and public service officials from the U.S. Congress and the executive branch, including those affiliated with either the Democratic or the Republican Party as well as foreign officials of varying political backgrounds. It has been labeled a "centrist" think tank by U.S. News & World Report.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Strategic_and_International_Studies

CSIS Report - June 17, 2020 The Escalating Terrorism Problem in the United States

"First, far-right terrorism has significantly outpaced terrorism from other types of perpetrators, including from far-left networks and individuals inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda. Right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994, and the total number of right-wing attacks and plots has grown significantly during the past six years. Right-wing extremists perpetrated two thirds of the attacks and plots in the United States in 2019 and over 90 percent between January 1 and May 8, 2020. "

"Between 1994 and 2020, there were 893 terrorist attacks and plots in the United States. Overall, right-wing terrorists perpetrated the majority—57 percent—of all attacks and plots during this period, compared to 25 percent committed by left-wing terrorists, 15 percent by religious terrorists, 3 percent by ethnonationalists, and 0.7 percent by terrorists with other motives."

"This rise in right-wing activity is of national concern; it is not isolated to one region and affects cities of varying sizes."

"The right-wing terrorist threat also includes anti-government extremists, including militias and the sovereign citizen movement. Most militia extremists view the U.S. government as corrupt and a threat to freedom and rights. Other far-right anti-government groups mobilized to protect a perceived threat to individual gun ownership rights. Modern militias are organized as paramilitaries that conduct weapons training and other field exercises."

"Anti-government extremists, which sometimes blend with white supremacist movements, have used the slang word “boogaloo” as a shorthand for a coming civil war. Several popular Facebook groups and Instagram pages, such as Thicc Boog Line, P A T R I O T Wave, and Boogaloo Nation, have emerged spreading the boogaloo conspiracy. Police in Texas arrested 36-year-old Aaron Swenson in April after he attempted to livestream his search for a police officer that he could ambush and execute. Prior to his arrest, Swenson had shared memes extensively from boogaloo pages."

"Our data suggest that right-wing extremists pose the most significant terrorism threat to the United States, based on annual terrorist events and fatalities. Over the next year, the threat of terrorism in the United States will likely increase based on several factors, such as the November 2020 presidential election and the response to the Covid-19 crisis. These factors are not the cause of terrorism, but they are events and developments likely to fuel anger and be co-opted by a small minority of extremists as a pretext for violence."

"All parts of U.S. society have an important role to play in countering terrorism. Politicians need to encourage greater civility and refrain from incendiary language. Social media companies need to continue sustained efforts to fight hatred and terrorism on their platforms. Facebook, Google, Twitter, and other companies are already doing this. But the struggle will only get more difficult as the United States approaches the November 2020 presidential election—and even in its aftermath. Finally, the U.S. population needs to be more alert to disinformation, double-check their sources of information, and curb incendiary language."

"Terrorism feeds off lies, conspiracies, disinformation, and hatred. Indian leader Mahatma Gandhi urged individuals to practice what he called “satyagraha,” or truth force. “Satyagraha is a weapon of the strong; it admits of no violence under any circumstance whatever; and it always insists upon truth,” he explained. That advice is just as important as it has ever been in the United States."

https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1628 on: September 23, 2020, 02:48:08 pm »

This is an example of how skewed rightwards US politics is. It's very similar here in the UK. Anything left of Ghengis Khan is full-bloodied Stalinism with gulags, salt mines and tractor-factories.

Seriously, your Democrats are not much different from our (pre-Brexit) Conservatives or German Christian Democrats. That's our right-wing. Our left-wing is definitely not socialist.
I have no knowledge of your British parties.  However, American politics are skewing more towards the left and Democrats currently  causing many who object to those policies to react by moving to the right.  Because we only have two main parties, Americans are forced to join one or the other.  This makes for rather strange bedfellows in each party.  At least in the UK, you could branch out to one of the minor parties that better represents your views.  But our electoral system forces us to keep a two-party system in the main.  So each party may do things that you both like and object too. 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1629 on: September 23, 2020, 03:56:11 pm »


Secondly, Trumps' claim of forthcoming voter fraud, sans evidence, whilst simultaneously allowing Republican states to attempt to gerrymander the election through voter suppression, is an attempt to undermine democracy itself. I seriously fear for my friends in the US, of whatever political persuasion. I foresee violence ahead. Keep safe, folks.

You may be mis-representing the Trump position on voter fraud. It will only be fraudulent if Trump loses. If he wins, the election process will be fine.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1630 on: September 23, 2020, 03:57:22 pm »

The Democrats seem to be moving to be the party of socialism, wealth distribution, and the left.  The Republicans seem to be softening their positions and starting to seem like the old Democrats. 

You need to get off caffeine.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1631 on: September 23, 2020, 05:12:36 pm »

Yes. 98% of the violence comes from the left.  You really need to expand the cable stations you're watching.  Who do you think have been looting and burning down stores and property?

Just because you can keep saying something doesn't mean that it magically becomes true, Alan.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1632 on: September 23, 2020, 05:21:56 pm »

I never said Bernard said he did. I was pointing out that because Trump never violated a court decision in four years, arguing that he would as Bernard suggested, is Hollywood make-believe.

The whole idea of the scenario I propose is that by positioning an unconditional supporter Repiblican judge at the supreme court Trump wouldn’t have to violate any court decision to, in appearance, legally steal the elections.

But you know it and carefully avoided to answer the point.

Nothing surprising coming from your long posting history.

Regards,
Bernard

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1633 on: September 23, 2020, 06:48:42 pm »

Cindy McCain, Widow Of Onetime GOP Nominee, Endorses Biden For President

"Cindy McCain, the widow of Sen. John McCain, is the latest prominent conservative to urge Republicans to cross party lines and support Joe Biden for president."

"There's only one candidate in this race who stands up for our values as a nation, and that is Joe Biden," she tweeted Tuesday evening.

McCain added: "Joe and I don't always agree on the issues, and I know he and John certainly had some passionate arguments, but he is a good and honest man. He will lead us with dignity. He will be a commander in chief that the finest fighting force in the history of the world can depend on, because he knows what it is like to send a child off to fight."

"This isn't about Republican versus Democrat in my mind. It transcends that. It transcends everything that has occurred. And certainly 2020 is the most unusual year we can name to date. So we need someone that can take the helm in a time of crisis, which is where we're at right now, and someone that not only supports our troops but believes in the good of America and not the ill of America."

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/cindy-mccain-widow-of-onetime-gop-nominee-endorses-biden-for-president

Cindy McCain is the latest in a long line of prominent Republicans that have endorsed Joe Biden. That list includes, among others: Colin Powell, John Kasich, Carly Fiorina, Jeff Flake, and George Will.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Republicans_who_oppose_the_2020_Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign

In one of the many interviews with Cindy McCain today, she spoke about Joe Biden's great empathy. It's something that many have commented on and which all of the McCains have experienced first hand over decades of friendship.

https://www.youtube.com/Joe Biden Speaks With Meghan McCain
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 07:07:30 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1634 on: September 23, 2020, 08:37:39 pm »

Cindy McCain, Widow Of Onetime GOP Nominee, Endorses Biden For President

"Cindy McCain, the widow of Sen. John McCain, is the latest prominent conservative to urge Republicans to cross party lines and support Joe Biden for president."

"There's only one candidate in this race who stands up for our values as a nation, and that is Joe Biden," she tweeted Tuesday evening.

McCain added: "Joe and I don't always agree on the issues, and I know he and John certainly had some passionate arguments, but he is a good and honest man. He will lead us with dignity. He will be a commander in chief that the finest fighting force in the history of the world can depend on, because he knows what it is like to send a child off to fight."

"This isn't about Republican versus Democrat in my mind. It transcends that. It transcends everything that has occurred. And certainly 2020 is the most unusual year we can name to date. So we need someone that can take the helm in a time of crisis, which is where we're at right now, and someone that not only supports our troops but believes in the good of America and not the ill of America."

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/cindy-mccain-widow-of-onetime-gop-nominee-endorses-biden-for-president

Cindy McCain is the latest in a long line of prominent Republicans that have endorsed Joe Biden. That list includes, among others: Colin Powell, John Kasich, Carly Fiorina, Jeff Flake, and George Will.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Republicans_who_oppose_the_2020_Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign

In one of the many interviews with Cindy McCain today, she spoke about Joe Biden's great empathy. It's something that many have commented on and which all of the McCains have experienced first hand over decades of friendship.

https://www.youtube.com/Joe Biden Speaks With Meghan McCain
All Republican denizens and some warmongering Neocons of the Washington swamp that Trump lambasted.  In any case, Powell is a Rhino.  He supported Obama against McCain and then again Obama against Romney.  Yet you put him and McCain in the same post.  You really need to study American history.   

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1635 on: September 23, 2020, 09:18:56 pm »

Trump refuses to commit to peaceful transfer of power if he loses

REPORTER: "Win, lose, or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transferral of power after the election? There has been rioting in Louisville, there has been rioting in many cities across the country. Your so-called red and blue states. Will you commit to make sure there's a peaceful transferral of power after the election? "

TRUMP: "We're going to have to see what happens, you know that. I've been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are disaster."

REPORTER: "I understand that, but people are rioting. Do you commit to make sure that there's a peaceful transferral of power?"

TRUMP: "Get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very peaceful — there won't be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation. The ballots are out of control. You know it. And you know who knows it better than anybody else? The Democrats know it better than anybody else."

https://www.axios.com/trump-peaceful-transfer-power-election
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 09:21:57 pm by TechTalk »
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James Clark

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1636 on: September 23, 2020, 09:20:40 pm »

Frankly, this is as bizarre a scenario as the ones being spread by the right-wing conspiracy theorists who support Trump (perhaps with a little push from operatives working on behalf of Russian intelligence services).

I wish I agreed with you, but I think Bart's concerns are not unfounded.   From a lengthy article in The Atlantic released today:

Quote
According to sources in the Republican Party at the state and national levels, the Trump campaign is discussing contingency plans to bypass election results and appoint loyal electors in battleground states where Republicans hold the legislative majority. With a justification based on claims of rampant fraud, Trump would ask state legislators to set aside the popular vote and exercise their power to choose a slate of electors directly. The longer Trump succeeds in keeping the vote count in doubt, the more pressure legislators will feel to act before the safe-harbor deadline expires.

To a modern democratic sensibility, discarding the popular vote for partisan gain looks uncomfortably like a coup, whatever license may be found for it in law. Would Republicans find that position disturbing enough to resist? Would they cede the election before resorting to such a ploy? Trump’s base would exact a high price for that betrayal, and by this point party officials would be invested in a narrative of fraud.

The Trump-campaign legal adviser I spoke with told me the push to appoint electors would be framed in terms of protecting the people’s will. Once committed to the position that the overtime count has been rigged, the adviser said, state lawmakers will want to judge for themselves what the voters intended...

...In Pennsylvania, three Republican leaders told me they had already discussed the direct appointment of electors among themselves, and one said he had discussed it with Trump’s national campaign.

“I’ve mentioned it to them, and I hope they’re thinking about it too,” Lawrence Tabas, the Pennsylvania Republican Party’s chairman, told me. “I just don’t think this is the right time for me to be discussing those strategies and approaches, but [direct appointment of electors] is one of the options. It is one of the available legal options set forth in the Constitution.”

Note that this *is not* unsourced or anonymous - a Trump battleground party chairman is willing to go on record and acknowledge that they are using the bullshit spectre of "voter fraud" to ignore the election outcome in the pursuit of retaining minority rule over a majority that wants this fool gone. These guys are begging for violence in the streets, and they're about to get it.

 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1637 on: September 23, 2020, 09:33:07 pm »

Trump refuses to commit to peaceful transfer of power if he loses

REPORTER: "Win, lose, or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transferral of power after the election? There has been rioting in Louisville, there has been rioting in many cities across the country. Your so-called red and blue states. Will you commit to make sure there's a peaceful transferral of power after the election? "

TRUMP: "We're going to have to see what happens, you know that. I've been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are disaster."

REPORTER: "I understand that, but people are rioting. Do you commit to make sure that there's a peaceful transferral of power?"

TRUMP: "Get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very peaceful — there won't be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation. The ballots are out of control. You know it. And you know who knows it better than anybody else? The Democrats know it better than anybody else."

https://www.axios.com/trump-peaceful-transfer-power-election

The perfect answer by Trump.  Liberal heads heads explode once again.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1638 on: September 23, 2020, 09:34:29 pm »

I wish I agreed with you, but I think Bart's concerns are not unfounded.   From a lengthy article in The Atlantic released today:

Note that this *is not* unsourced or anonymous - a Trump battleground party chairman is willing to go on record and acknowledge that they are using the bullshit spectre of "voter fraud" to ignore the election outcome in the pursuit of retaining minority rule over a majority that wants this fool gone. These guys are begging for violence in the streets, and they're about to get it.

 
I'd like to remind you that it was Democrat Hillary Clinton who worked to get Trump electors to change their vote and elect her to be president.  Ironically, as it turned out, more Clinton electors changed their vote to Trump than Trump electors change theirs to Clinton.  Poetic justice.

In any case, it was the Democrats who made a stink about Trump winning that even led to the phony charges of him colluding with the Russians and committing treason.  The anti-Trump Atlantic magazine seems to have a short memory. 

James Clark

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1639 on: September 23, 2020, 09:41:35 pm »

I'd like to remind you that it was Democrat Hillary Clinton who worked to get Trump electors to change their vote and elect her to be president.  Ironically, as it turned out, more Clinton electors changed their vote to Trump than Trump electors change theirs to Clinton.  Poetic justice.

In any case, it was the Democrats who made a stink about Trump winning that even led to the phony charges of him colluding with the Russians and committing treason.  The anti-Trump Atlantic magazine seems to have a short memory.

"Democrat Hillary Clinton" did what now?  Stop making stuff up. 

Also, the investigation was not phony.  The Republican Senate committee said as much, and nobody (except noted Trump toadies Bill Barr, that wanker down in Florida, Gaetz, and the child molester apologist "Gym" Jordan) that anyone takes seriously things it was.   As others have said, stop making stuff up.
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