US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[Alan Klein]

It is amazing how you can relate the problems France is having with how "good" Trump is in handling Muslims... the current attacks in France stem from the cartoons in Charlie Hebdo, which actually originated already several years ago when their office was attacked.

I am sure you have seen the many past demonstrations in Muslim countries burning the USA flag, etc. Just because it is not happening today, it is not thanks to Trump.

The  Muslim community in America doesn't act violently as many Muslims immigrants in France and elsewhere.  Maybe that's because native Americans are much more tolerant of them and their customs.  It may be also because America, an immigrant nation,  gives them a bigger stake in our country to be successful economically, socially, and politically.  While they keep their faith and customs, they are allowed to integrate into the common public square and community.    They become real Americans.  VP candidate Harris is a perfect example.  Her mother is from India.  Yet she's running for the second highest office in the USA.

Part of the problem in Europe is that countries are not immigrant nations like America.  So immigrants there tend to be treated as outsiders even when they become citizens of their adopted countries.  That creates resentment with them.  I'm not saying what's right or wrong, only what is. So you should look inwards and check your record before you criticize America.

[James Clark]

So you don't have a problem with Biden?  Just wondering?  Oh wait, you don't my bad.

I've never said that.   In fact I have serious problems with some of the actions of the Obama/Biden administration, and Biden was low down on my list of Dem candidates.   It's just that I find the wailing and gnashing of teeth about hints of Biden's alleged impropriety to be massively hypocritical coming from Trump supporters, who's preferred candidate both refuses to disclose or divest from his known conflicts of interest AND installed his family (some of whom couldn't even get security clearances) *inside the freakin' White House.*




 

[TechTalk]

An interesting take from Lindsey Graham on Trump, the state of the Republican Party, and conservatism in under two minutes...

https://www.youtube.com/Lindsey Graham on Trump and Republican Party

I wonder if anyone saw that and sent him $25. He is coming up a little short on the old campaign trail. Besides, he changes his mind a lot, and doesn't update his videos. Is this his latest video, because otherwise you'll be wasting a lot of valuable time.

He certainly managed to say a lot in about 90 seconds. It could be condensed into quite an effective one-minute campaign ad.

[Alan Klein]

I've never said that.   In fact I have serious problems with some of the actions of the Obama/Biden administration, and Biden was low down on my list of Dem candidates.   It's just that I find the wailing and gnashing of teeth about hints of Biden's alleged impropriety to be massively hypocritical coming from Trump supporters, who's preferred candidate both refuses to disclose or divest from his known conflicts of interest AND installed his family (some of whom couldn't even get security clearances) *inside the freakin' White House.*




 

But the press has a journalistic responsibility to report the news fairly and not take sides, something they haven't done. 

[JoeKitchen]

The  Muslim community in America doesn't act violently as many Muslims immigrants in France and elsewhere.  Maybe that's because native Americans are much more tolerant of them and their customs.  It may be also because America, an immigrant nation,  gives them a bigger stake in our country to be successful economically, socially, and politically.  While they keep their faith and customs, they are allowed to integrate into the common public square and community.    They become real Americans.  VP candidate Harris is a perfect example.  Her mother is from India.  Yet she's running for the second highest office in the USA.

Part of the problem in Europe is that countries are not immigrant nations like America.  So immigrants there tend to be treated as outsiders even when they become citizens of their adopted countries.  That creates resentment with them.  I'm not saying what's right or wrong, only what is. So you should look inwards and check your record before you criticize America.

Consistently the USA ranks as the least racist country in the world, something many on the left look over.  In surveys where they ask people would they be okay with a person of a different race living next door, we always rank the highest. 

[TechTalk]

Are those the same surveys taken at the last debate where Donald Trump declared he was the least racist person in the room?

[Manoli]

Consistently the USA ranks as the least racist country in the world, something many on the left look over.  In surveys where they ask people would they be okay with a person of a different race living next door, we always rank the highest. 

That's an interesting statistic, Joe.
Any links ?

And, incidentally, why is it limited to "many on the left" ?

[Robert Roaldi]

What does this have to do with the US election?

Noting whatsoever but the topic of health care has come up several times wrt pre-existing conditions and Obamacare with people making comments about non-USA health and I thought this was a useful addition to the discussion. I gave a description of what it was in the post, please don't listen to it if it does not interest you.

[MattBurt]

Consistently the USA ranks as the least racist country in the world, something many on the left look over.  In surveys where they ask people would they be okay with a person of a different race living next door, we always rank the highest.

When someone gets racially profiled (or worse) do you think the USA's world ranking really matters to them?

I actually believe Trump may not necessarily be a racist, or at least not in his own mind. I think he just tolerates or even panders to them if he thinks it might benefit him and/or hurt his perceived enemies. Which to me is just as bad without being the same thing.

[JoeKitchen]

When someone gets racially profiled (or worse) do you think the USA's world ranking really matters to them?

I actually believe Trump may not necessarily be a racist, or at least not in his own mind. I think he just tolerates or even panders to them if he thinks it might benefit him and/or hurt his perceived enemies. Which to me is just as bad without being the same thing.

I am sure it does not, but that does not happen often. 

And when does he pander to them?  Trump has denounced racists and white nationalist repeatably.  It's been in the news. 

I think the real issue the the lefts network of systematic bull shit and putting a expiration date on any from the right's declarations against racism, while ignoring it is the right who banishes racists in their party, not the left.  Ilan Omar, anti-semite, is still welcome with open arms in the Democratic party. 

But anyway, if you want to talk about moral cowardice, get back to me when Biden denounces Antifa by name. 

[Robert Roaldi]

The  Muslim community in America doesn't act violently as many Muslims immigrants in France and elsewhere.  Maybe that's because native Americans are much more tolerant of them and their customs.  It may be also because America, an immigrant nation,  gives them a bigger stake in our country to be successful economically, socially, and politically.  While they keep their faith and customs, they are allowed to integrate into the common public square and community.    They become real Americans.  VP candidate Harris is a perfect example.  Her mother is from India.  Yet she's running for the second highest office in the USA.

I just wanted to point out the possibility of making an error when discussing what muslims think or do in various places around the world. There are a lot of people who belong to that faith, so ascribing any ideas to the entire group is fraught. Do you think it's true to say that most white people like scones, for instance? Are all Christians papists? Since we all seem to be agreeing that language is important today, I just wanted to point that out.

And one more thing. I assume that when you speak of muslims you're probably really thinking of radical jihadists. I admit that's just an assumption on my part, but insofar as that's true then maybe there is a connection between them and Trump, since they both rely on support from fundamentalists and Trump seems to have emerged as a kind of prophet to some parts of American evangelism, as improbable as that seems. Now, is that logic tortuous enough for you?

[Robert Roaldi]

But the press has a journalistic responsibility to report the news fairly and not take sides, something they haven't done.

You mean like Hannity?

[MattBurt]

I am sure it does not, but that does not happen often. 

And when does he pander to them?  Trump has denounced racists and white nationalist repeatably.  It's been in the news. 

I think the real issue the the lefts network of systematic bull shit and putting a expiration date on any from the right's declarations against racism, while ignoring it is the right who banishes racists in their party, not the left.  Ilan Omar, anti-semite, is still welcome with open arms in the Democratic party. 

But anyway, if you want to talk about moral cowardice, get back to me when Biden denounces Antifa by name.

"Very fine people" comes to mind. I'm sure I could find other examples but I can't be bothered.
I'd consider Trump as being without morals entirely. There are no morals to be a coward about.

Lol about Antifa. They aren't even an organization. And I think a lot of reasonable people don't disagree with a stance that is primarily defined as being anti-fascist. Although I personally disagree with some people's actions done in the name of Antifa, I would consider myself an anti-fascist too.
It's not like they have been an organized group intimating and murdering innocent people for hundreds of years. It looks like the first potential "Antifa killing" just happened this summer and it sounds like the shooter believed he was acting in self defense (or defense of another) from what appear to be domestic terrorists.

[faberryman]

The Muslim community in America doesn't act violently as many Muslims immigrants in France and elsewhere.  Maybe that's because native Americans are much more tolerant of them and their customs.

You don't live around where I live. Some Muslims in a town down the road bought this old church that the Presbyterians or someone were selling, probably because everybody around here has stopped going to church, and were going to convert it into a mosque. They had to get a building permit because of all the stuff they planned on doing. Anyway, the tolerant native Americans in town decided that it was a mortal sin or something to convert a church into a mosque, and so they filed a lot of lawsuits over the building permit, and it took four or five years to resolve. I think by then, the church, as renovated, wasn't going to big enough because their Muslim community had grown in the interim. So they had to look for an alternative, and I am pretty sure they are going to have to go through the same thing again. So even though there haven't been any riots on either side, it doesn't mean that some native Americans aren’t all that tolerant. I think these Muslims have shown pretty good restraint. If I were one of them, at some point I would have thought about burning down a Masons Lodge or something. It obviously wouldn't make sense to burn down a church because nobody goes to church, and the congregation would probably say thanks, and hurry down to the mailbox to collect the insurance proceeds. That's not going to advance your cause.

[Jeremy Roussak]

I didn't see that, I guess because I don't read all the entries in this thread. It would be odd to close the election threads when the most important developments may actually happen after election day.

It's not in this thread. See here.

That's why I suggested earlier that Jeremy might want to re-think the whole idea of leaving one political thread open for the addicts. It is obvious that none of us have the necessary self-control to stop posting on our own.

It was Josh's suggestion, to which I acquiesced. It will not survive any disturbance it causes.

Jeremy

[faberryman]

But the press has a journalistic responsibility to report the news fairly and not take sides, something they haven't done.

And from whence does this responsibility arise.

[JoeKitchen]

"Very fine people" comes to mind. I'm sure I could find other examples but I can't be bothered.
I'd consider Trump as being without morals entirely. There are no morals to be a coward about.

Lol about Antifa. They aren't even an organization. And I think a lot of reasonable people don't disagree with a stance that is primarily defined as being anti-fascist. Although I personally disagree with some people's actions done in the name of Antifa, I would consider myself an anti-fascist too.
It's not like they have been an organized group intimating and murdering innocent people for hundreds of years. It looks like the first potential "Antifa killing" just happened this summer and it sounds like the shooter believed he was acting in self defense (or defense of another) from what appear to be domestic terrorists.

Ahhh, here we go, the  very fine people quote, yet again taken out of context and not aknowledging he denounced white nationals in the same exact sentence right before saying that.  Not the paragraph, but the same exact sentence. 

Get your facts straight Matt.  But if you cant, here is a link from USA Today explaining it to you,

Trump did condemn white supremacists, too bad so many people won't listen

BTW, nice to see you being fooled by the linguistic over load of Antifa.  Do you think the People Republic of North Korea is a republic too? 

Antifa has a flag, they have a uniform, they have leaders, they are an organization.  They are not anti-facist as they imply, but far left radicals using the same fascist tactics as all fascists do, like sending out brown shirts to shut people up. 

[faberryman]

Consistently the USA ranks as the least racist country in the world, something many on the left look over.

Yeah, it's worse elsewhere is always a winning argument. That's why the guy in the pond who is up to his ass in alligators isn't all that consoled when someone says to him "You're lucky, the pond over there has snakes and alligators."

[Alan Goldhammer]

Consistently the USA ranks as the least racist country in the world, something many on the left look over.  In surveys where they ask people would they be okay with a person of a different race living next door, we always rank the highest.

I would go further and say that while things can always be improved, the US is the best multi-cultural country in the world.

[JoeKitchen]

I would go further and say that while things can always be improved, the US is the best multi-cultural country in the world.

I would go even further and say we have been the only true multi-cultural country in the world since Rome. 


I spoke way too broadly here and apologize to anyone who take offense to this.  I realized this while I was at the gym and wanted to correct this statement on my own.