US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[MattBurt]

For my American friends, what do you intend to do personally if the following happens:
0. Trump violates historical precedents (created by Republicans when they prevented Obama from replacing a supreme court judge 8 months before the end of his mandate) and the spirit of the constitution by nominating a Trump controlled supreme court judge
1. Trump tries everything he can to trick the elections (we have proof he is busy trying to do this it at least in Florida, his attempts to prevent mail voting is well documented,...)
2. Still, he looses the elections on both popular vote and grand elector vote
3. He refuses to acknowledge the results, the thing goes to the supreme court and he steals the election thanks to the newly appointed supreme court judge

Unthinkable in American history, but unfortunately quite plausible.

So I am wondering what each of you plan on doing if such a terrible scenario were to unfold?

Regards,
Bernard

I don't know but the idea terrifies me. I'm hoping what is left of the fairly well-designed system to prevent this kind of thing will work. Or at least work enough. But it's pretty clear what the game plan is here.

If I was one of those gun toting 2nd amendment enthusiasts of course I'd be saying how we are going to "rise up" and all that but I'm not one of those people. I truly believe violence is (almost) never the answer.

Very troubling times. I'm hopeful enough republicans realize and actually care about the hypocrisy here to do the right thing but I don't have much faith in that idea. Ugh.

I only became a citizen recently so that oath to uphold the constitution (that natural born citizens do not have to take by the way) is still pretty fresh in my mind. I'm going to continue to do whatever I can to keep that oath and help regain the integrity of our government that the founding fathers envisioned.
 

[Alan Klein]

Trying to be as objective as possible, which is not too difficult because I'm not American  , I can understand why Trump is questioning whether Justice Ginsburg actually said what she is claimed to have said a few days before passing away. Perhaps she said something similar or something that implied she would prefer her replacement to be chosen by a new president, because she obviously didn't like Trump.

What is meant by 'dictated'? Was Clara Spera at a typewriter, recording what her grandmother's final political wishes were, word for word?

Since both grandmother and granddaughter are well-versed in legal matters, shouldn't such a significant and fervent wish, with obvious political consequences, have been recorded on the iPhone, so there could be no doubt that that was what Justice Ginsburg actual said, days before her death?

The Bold is pretty much what I feel.  She's didn't want Trump to replace her.  That's why she hung on during his term, after Hillary who she thought was going to win, wound up losing. So her children said she was fervent in wanting another president to nominate her replacement.  Her family embellished that to make it seem like she said it on her deathbed.

Regardless of what she said or when she said it, supreme court seats don't belong to anyone to pass on.  The constitution gives the power of a sitting president to nominate replacements and the Senate to advise and consent.  Of all people, she new that's how the constitution works.  She would be aghast that the system would accommodate her personal wishes over the Constitution. Why would Americans continue to respect the very document we rule ourselves with if we ran our government by personal preferences rather than law? 

[Alan Klein]

For my American friends, what do you intend to do personally if the following happens:
0. Trump violates historical precedents (created by Republicans when they prevented Obama from replacing a supreme court judge 8 months before the end of his mandate) and the spirit of the constitution by nominating a Trump controlled supreme court judge
1. Trump tries everything he can to trick the elections (we have proof he is busy trying to do this it at least in Florida, his attempts to prevent mail voting is well documented,...)
2. Still, he looses the elections on both popular vote and grand elector vote
3. He refuses to acknowledge the results, the thing goes to the supreme court and he steals the election thanks to the newly appointed supreme court judge

Unthinkable in American history, but unfortunately quite plausible.

So I am wondering what each of you plan on doing if such a terrible scenario were to unfold?

Regards,
Bernard

Trump has never violated a court decision during his four years as president.  He's acted just like any president before him.  You've been watching too many American movies.  You really need to get a grip on things.

[faberryman]

Trump has never violated a court decision during his four years as president.  He's acted just like any president before him.  You've been watching too many American movies.  You really need to get a grip on things.

Bernard did not say that Trump "violated a court decision". Quit making stuff up.

[Alan Klein]

You want to go off on a tangent? Ok.

You have stated many times on these forums that one of the reasons for the 2nd amendment is so citizens can protect themselves from arbitrary governments. You regard this as an important part of civic freedom. But it seems to bother you when some citizens take actions against unfair authority, unfair as perceived by them anyway. Let me ask you, did you really think that people would only take up arms to defend themselves against government power in ways that you agreed with? Because that's pretty unrealistic.

In the case of civil insurrection in the US, doesn't it worry you that it keeps happening decade after decade? What might the reason be, do you think?

I never said that if you take up arms against the government, you should get a free pass.  You must be ready to suffer the consequences including getting hung if you lose.  The 2nd amendment is there so people have the means to take up arms against the government as a last resort.  It doesn't say that the government and the rest of the people who disagree with you cannot protect themselves and fight back.  After all, the 2nd Amendment is for all the people. 

Of course our Civil War was a dramatic and momentous instance of this other than our War of Independence from England.  But that was before we became a country.  I would consider our CIvil War an insurrection.  Beside that, there have been individuals or groups who have from time to time played at insurrection.  But they were extreme minorities that didn't have the support of the general population.  They lost, went to jail or were killed, or disappeared after the novelty wore off.  Violent protests fall in that latter category.

[faberryman]

I never said that if you take up arms against the government, you should get a free pass.

Robert didn't say that you said that if you take up arms against the government you should get a free pass.  Quit making stuff up.

[Alan Klein]

I don't know but the idea terrifies me. I'm hoping what is left of the fairly well-designed system to prevent this kind of thing will work. Or at least work enough. But it's pretty clear what the game plan is here.

If I was one of those gun toting 2nd amendment enthusiasts of course I'd be saying how we are going to "rise up" and all that but I'm not one of those people. I truly believe violence is (almost) never the answer.

Very troubling times. I'm hopeful enough republicans realize and actually care about the hypocrisy here to do the right thing but I don't have much faith in that idea. Ugh.

I only became a citizen recently so that oath to uphold the constitution (that natural born citizens do not have to take by the way) is still pretty fresh in my mind. I'm going to continue to do whatever I can to keep that oath and help regain the integrity of our government that the founding fathers envisioned.
 

Congratulations and welcome aboard.  America is lucky to have someone like you.

[Alan Klein]

Bernard did not say that Trump "violated a court decision". Quit making stuff up.

I never said Bernard said he did. I was pointing out that because Trump never violated a court decision in four years, arguing that he would as Bernard suggested, is Hollywood make-believe.

[Alan Klein]

This should settle the court issue for the Democrats.

[Alan Klein]

Robert didn't say that you said that if you take up arms against the government you should get a free pass.  Quit making stuff up.

I think CNN has gotten to you.  You sound like them more and more.

[faberryman]

I think CNN has gotten to you.  You sound like them more and more.

I don't watch CNN. I am just tired of you making stuff up. It has become your favorite method of trolling. It ruins the discussion for everyone else.

[Alan Klein]

I don't watch CNN. I am just tired of you making stuff up. It has become your favorite method of trolling. It ruins the discussion for everyone else.

Stop making stuff up.  I debate, not troll.

[faberryman]

Stop making stuff up.  I debate, not troll.

No, you troll.

[Alan Klein]

This is getting interesting.  The Dems are going to freak out.

Romney backs vote on Supreme Court nominee, clearing way for Trump
The announcement means Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has enough votes to move forward with Trump's pick.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/22/romney-supports-holding-a-vote-on-next-supreme-court-nominee-419898

[BernardLanguillier]

Frankly, this is as bizarre a scenario as the ones being spread by the right-wing conspiracy theorists who support Trump (perhaps with a little push from operatives working on behalf of Russian intelligence services).

What is bizarre about it?

In the sense, which of these points to you think could definitely not happen based on the facts we have in hand today and 4 years of Trump behavior and declarations?

For what it's worth, in yesterday's edition of the leading French journal "le Monde", 2 editorial articles were hinting at the possibility of the very scenario I described in my post.

Regards,
Bernard

[Alan Klein]

What is bizarre about it?

In the sense, which of these points to you think could definitely not happen based on the facts we have in hand today and 4 years of Trump behavior and declarations?

For what it's worth, in yesterday's edition of the leading French journal "le Monde", 2 editorial articles were hinting at the possibility of the very scenario I described in my post.

Regards,
Bernard

Apparently some Frenchmen suffer from TDS Trump Derangement Syndrome as well.  It's spreading internationally like the virus.

[LesPalenik]

Apparently some Frenchmen suffer from TDS Trump Derangement Syndrome as well.  It's spreading internationally like the virus.

Internationally, it was spread out a long time ago. It started after Trump ignored Merkel's handshake and when he tried to squeeze Macron's hand.

[BernardLanguillier]

Apparently some Frenchmen suffer from TDS Trump Derangement Syndrome as well.  It's spreading internationally like the virus.

Right... how about a more elaborate answer point by point?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Alan Klein]

Internationally, it was spread out a long time ago. It started after Trump ignored Merkel's handshake and when he tried to squeeze Macron's hand.

Whose hand would you rather squeeze?   

[Chairman Bill]

From the other side of the Atlantic, two things strike me right now: The Republican double standard over the nomination for the Supreme Court and Trump's comments about electoral fraud if he loses.

Firstly, to tell Obama he couldn't nominate several months before the election, but four years on insist Trump can, is breathtakingly dishonest. Republicans should be ashamed to go down this road.

Secondly, Trumps' claim of forthcoming voter fraud, sans evidence, whilst simultaneously allowing Republican states to attempt to gerrymander the election through voter suppression, is an attempt to undermine democracy itself. I seriously fear for my friends in the US, of whatever political persuasion. I foresee violence ahead. Keep safe, folks.