US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[Alan Klein]

Especially when you read his comments this morning on Fox and Friends:

"President Trump questioned Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s dying wish that her replacement on the Supreme Court be chosen by the next president, suggesting without evidence on Monday that Democrats had concocted a quote provided by Justice Ginsburg’s grieving family.

“I don’t know that she said that, or if that was written out by Adam Schiff, and Schumer and Pelosi,” Mr. Trump said during an interview on “Fox & Friends” early Monday, referring to three top Democrats, Representative Adam Schiff of California, Senator Chuck Schumer of New York and Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California.

“That came out of the wind. It sounds so beautiful, but that sounds like a Schumer deal, or maybe Pelosi or Shifty Schiff,” added Mr. Trump, interrupting one of the show’s co-hosts, who had tried to interject that the quote had been verified by journalists."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/us/elections/ruth-bader-ginsburg-dying-wish.html

Trump's feelings were exactly my initial feelings.  That her statement was made not by her but was created for political reasons.  Who says that on your deathbed?  In  any case, as a Supreme COurt justice who suppose to reflect Constitutional law, she knows better than most people that a current president nominates a justice if one retires or dies.  The idea that a current president shouldn't make the nomination is out of constitutional norms. 

Also, the whole putting her on display for a week lying in-state in the Supreme Court building.  Jewish law requires burial within 24 hours after death or immediately after a holiday should the person die then.  She died the day before the sabbath and the Jewish high holy days of New Year.  So she should be buried today Monday.  Your body is not suppose to be put on political display to influence the public and political shenanigans that are going on with both sides.  That her family allowed this is a disgrace. It confirms to me that they just were underhanded enough to make up her supposed statement.

[Robert Roaldi]

Trump's feelings were exactly my initial feelings.  That her statement was made not by her but was created for political reasons.  Who says that on your deathbed?  In  any case, as a Supreme COurt justice who suppose to reflect Constitutional law, she knows better than most people that a current president nominates a justice if one retires or dies.  The idea that a current president shouldn't make the nomination is out of constitutional norms. 

Also, the whole putting her on display for a week lying in-state in the Supreme Court building.  Jewish law requires burial within 24 hours after death or immediately after a holiday should the person die then.  She died the day before the sabbath and the Jewish high holy days of New Year.  So she should be buried today Monday.  Your body is not suppose to be put on political display to influence the public and political shenanigans that are going on with both sides.  That her family allowed this is a disgrace. It confirms to me that they just were underhanded enough to make up her supposed statement.

Before you get too high-handed about all this, is it the case that the family observed?

[TechTalk]

If Joe Biden is elected as President — which at this point-in-time seems likely but uncertain — it will be interesting to see if there are changes in the relationship between the President and Congress, particularly with respect to the opposing party. In the past 20 years, we have had three Presidents who have had relatively little history of personal or political relationships inside Congress prior to election as President.

We've had a Governor from Texas from a political family. His prior connections were mostly indirect having never served in Congress.

Then we had a half-term Senator that served for three years before becoming President. He developed some relationships, but served only a relatively short time.

Those two terms were followed by a narcissistic reality-TV-host with a real estate development/branding business. His style has been to mock and belittle anyone who disagrees and threaten members of his own party with primary challenges from his base.

Biden, on the other hand, built long-term relationships and friendships with members of both parties over 36-years in the Senate and 8-years as Vice-President. He was well liked across both aisles due to both his personality and negotiating style. He consciously avoided making political differences personal and focused negotiations on issues and areas of common agreement. As Vice-President, he was assigned an important role with Congress because of his relationships and abilities as a negotiator there.

His deep and decades long friendship with John McCain is well known. But he also formed friendships with many other Republicans, among them are Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham. Since Trump's election and the resulting change in tone, rhetoric, and deepened national political divide and becoming a political target as a presidential candidate, the political smoke may have obscured some of those relationships. But beneath the political surface, those relationships may still survive even if weakened by the heat of a campaign. 

https://www.post-gazette.com/2016/06/08/Allegheny-College-awards-civility-prize-to-Joe-Biden-and-John-McCain

Here is a short 2016 video clip of McConnell discussing the difference between negotiating with Obama and Biden. It's just a little over a minute in length.

https://www.youtube.com/Sen. Mitch McConnell talks negotiating with Biden

This is a longer 2016 video of Mitch McConnell in the Senate discussing his relationship with Biden. It's just a little over seven minutes in length.

https://www.youtube.com/Majority Leader McConnell Pays Tribute to Vice President Biden

And this what Lindsey Graham had to say about Joe Biden's character in 2015. One-minute and 33-seconds long.

https://www.youtube.com/Lindsey Graham Chokes Up Talking About Joe Biden

[PeterAit]

Trump's feelings were exactly my initial feelings.  That her statement was made not by her but was created for political reasons.  Who says that on your deathbed?  In  any case, as a Supreme COurt justice who suppose to reflect Constitutional law, she knows better than most people that a current president nominates a justice if one retires or dies.  The idea that a current president shouldn't make the nomination is out of constitutional norms. 

And when Merrick Garland was denied confirmation hearings, where were you? Quiet as a mouse I bet.

Also, the whole putting her on display for a week lying in-state in the Supreme Court building.  Jewish law requires burial within 24 hours after death or immediately after a holiday should the person die then.  She died the day before the sabbath and the Jewish high holy days of New Year.  So she should be buried today Monday.  Your body is not suppose to be put on political display to influence the public and political shenanigans that are going on with both sides.  That her family allowed this is a disgrace. It confirms to me that they just were underhanded enough to make up her supposed statement.

Jewish law DOES NOT require burial within 24 hours. It's preferred but there are exceptions for certain situations, such as allowing time for mourners to gather--just the situation here. And anyway RBG was not an observant Jew, so why should the traditional laws be followed? Your comments are nasty and petty.

[Alan Klein]

...
Jewish law DOES NOT require burial within 24 hours. It's preferred but there are exceptions for certain situations, such as allowing time for mourners to gather--just the situation here. And anyway RBG was not an observant Jew, so why should the traditional laws be followed? Your comments are nasty and petty.

Mourners aren't gathering.  They're putting the body on display for political reasons to influence an election and justice selection process. That's wrong. You bury the body.   Even non-observant Jews follow this.  There's plenty of time for memorial services afterwards to celebrate a person's life and make speeches.  You don't need the body for that. 

[John Camp]

Mourners aren't gathering.  They're putting the body on display for political reasons to influence an election and justice selection process. That's wrong. You bury the body.   Even non-observant Jews follow this.  There's plenty of time for memorial services afterwards to celebrate a person's life and make speeches.  You don't need the body for that.

The funeral of Chaim Weizmann, first president of Israel:

"The funeral has been held over until Tuesday afternoon, to permit Dr. Weizmann’s son who is now in Britain to attend. Members of the President’s family are assembling at Rehovoth from all parts of Israel. The President will lie in state today and tomorrow. Thousands of persons began filing silently past his open, flag draped coffin this evening. Special trains brought thousands from Tel Aviv and Haifa to pay their last respects..."

[Alan Klein]

The funeral of Chaim Weizmann, first president of Israel:

"The funeral has been held over until Tuesday afternoon, to permit Dr. Weizmann’s son who is now in Britain to attend. Members of the President’s family are assembling at Rehovoth from all parts of Israel. The President will lie in state today and tomorrow. Thousands of persons began filing silently past his open, flag draped coffin this evening. Special trains brought thousands from Tel Aviv and Haifa to pay their last respects..."

Ginsberg is about politics. It started while her body was still warm.

[James Clark]

Ginsberg is about politics. It started while her body was still warm.

Like 98.7 degrees warm.  Rightwing ghouls have actively planning/hoping for her death for awhile, as evidenced by Trump floating his newest "choices" for the position weeks ago.

Seriously though, you need to stop with this line of conversation. Your double standards are insane here, even for you.

[PeterAit]

Ginsberg is about politics. It started while her body was still warm.

And why am I not surprised by the fact that Trump started these rumors about RBG's statement? And some saps actually believe this?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/technology/trump-jump-starts-misinformation-on-ginsburgs-dying-wish.html

[TechTalk]

Attacking a grieving family with allegations lacking any evidence whatsoever is disgusting. It's an extra level of disgust when done by a President on national television.

[Peter McLennan]

I know you didn't mean that to be funny, but it was a howler nonetheless.

It was in fact, a coffee-spitter.

[John Camp]

Mourners aren't gathering.  They're putting the body on display for political reasons to influence an election and justice selection process. That's wrong. You bury the body.   Even non-observant Jews follow this.  There's plenty of time for memorial services afterwards to celebrate a person's life and make speeches.  You don't need the body for that.

Funeral of David Ben-Gurion, first prime minister of Israel:

Today, Ben Gurion lay in state in the outer hall of the Knesset building in Jerusalem. By nightfall despite rain and wintry temperatures. over 100.000 persons had filed past the bier to pay their final respects to the founder of the Jewish State. For two hours before the public was admitted, Ben Gurion’s son and two daughters and other relatives and close associates of the former Premier spent time alone at the coffin. Then the doors were opened and the vast procession of tribute began, led by Premier Golda Meir and her Cabinet, the Knesset Speaker and justices of the Supreme Court.

[TechTalk]

Profiles In Courage - Putin Protector Edition

Alexei Navalny is a leader of the opposition to Putin inside Russia. On August 20, 2020 he fell ill on a flight from Siberia and was rushed to a hospital with suspected poisoning.

He went into a coma and a German-based charity persuaded Russian officials to allow him to be airlifted to Berlin for treatment. September 2nd, the German government revealed that tests carried out by the military found "unequivocal proof of a chemical nerve warfare agent of the Novichok group". Novichok was developed by the Russian military and has been used in assassinations and attempted assassinations before.

Angela Merkel held a press conference the same day demanding answers from the Kremlin. “It’s clear that Alexey Navalny is the victim of a crime. The intent was to silence him.”

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/2020-09-18/alexey-navalny-s-sloppy-poisoning-turned-angela-merkel-against-vladimir-putin

Today, Trump was asked by a reporter "Who do you think poisoned Alexei Navalny in Russia?"

Trump: "Uhhhhh, we'll talk about that at another time."

Video Clip: https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/Trump - Alexei Navalny Response

No surprise.  https://www.bbc.com/news/Alexei Navalny: Trump refuses to condemn Russia over poisoning

[Robert Roaldi]

Trump's feelings were exactly my initial feelings.  That her statement was made not by her but was created for political reasons.  Who says that on your deathbed?  In  any case, as a Supreme COurt justice who suppose to reflect Constitutional law, she knows better than most people that a current president nominates a justice if one retires or dies.  The idea that a current president shouldn't make the nomination is out of constitutional norms. 

Also, the whole putting her on display for a week lying in-state in the Supreme Court building.  Jewish law requires burial within 24 hours after death or immediately after a holiday should the person die then.  She died the day before the sabbath and the Jewish high holy days of New Year.  So she should be buried today Monday.  Your body is not suppose to be put on political display to influence the public and political shenanigans that are going on with both sides.  That her family allowed this is a disgrace. It confirms to me that they just were underhanded enough to make up her supposed statement.

What is it exactly about modern day America that propels you to voice such repulsive inhuman opinions? Why do you think you need an authoritarian strong man whose ass you need to kiss? Forget Covid for the moment. Your taxes aren't historically high and haven't been in a while. Despite your silly protestations environmental protections were not onerous to corporations or your way of life. Gasoline was cheap, food was cheap, people more or less got to do what they wanted. So some liberals on the coasts espoused views you don't like. So what. You espouse views they don't like. You don't own the place and neither do they. You write as if you're on the brink of some societal collapse, which isn't even remotely true. Where is this foam-at-the-mouth extremism coming from? What is the BIG problem that needs to be fixed?

I can tell you one thing though. The endless internal violence and gross mis-handling of Covid may have one unintended consequence. It might alleviate those immigration pressures you're so worried about (especially from less "white" countries) because people may not be so keen on moving to the US as they used to be, moreso as economies in the rest of the world continue to improve, which for some reason you've decided you don't want to participate in. Also on the brighter side, there haven't been any school mass shootings lately so we've been spared lectures about how guns in schools will keep kids safe, so that's good.

Seriously, your strident rantings are silly. Get yourself out of the Info Wars bubble and take a walk in the real world for a couple of weeks. It will do you good. It's not the end of the world out there.

[Alan Klein]

What is it exactly about modern day America that propels you to voice such repulsive inhuman opinions? Why do you think you need an authoritarian strong man whose ass you need to kiss? Forget Covid for the moment. Your taxes aren't historically high and haven't been in a while. Despite your silly protestations environmental protections were not onerous to corporations or your way of life. Gasoline was cheap, food was cheap, people more or less got to do what they wanted. So some liberals on the coasts espoused views you don't like. So what. You espouse views they don't like. You don't own the place and neither do they. You write as if you're on the brink of some societal collapse, which isn't even remotely true. Where is this foam-at-the-mouth extremism coming from? What is the BIG problem that needs to be fixed?

I can tell you one thing though. The endless internal violence and gross mis-handling of Covid may have one unintended consequence. It might alleviate those immigration pressures you're so worried about (especially from less "white" countries) because people may not be so keen on moving to the US as they used to be, moreso as economies in the rest of the world continue to improve, which for some reason you've decided you don't want to participate in. Also on the brighter side, there haven't been any school mass shootings lately so we've been spared lectures about how guns in schools will keep kids safe, so that's good.

Seriously, your strident rantings are silly. Get yourself out of the Info Wars bubble and take a walk in the real world for a couple of weeks. It will do you good. It's not the end of the world out there.

Why are you asking me those questions? The rioting, looting, and burning have come from the left and Democrats,  not Trump supporters.

[Ray]

Days before her death on Friday, Justice Ginsburg, 87, dictated a statement to her granddaughter Clara Spera, saying, “my most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed.”

Trying to be as objective as possible, which is not too difficult because I'm not American  , I can understand why Trump is questioning whether Justice Ginsburg actually said what she is claimed to have said a few days before passing away. Perhaps she said something similar or something that implied she would prefer her replacement to be chosen by a new president, because she obviously didn't like Trump.

What is meant by 'dictated'? Was Clara Spera at a typewriter, recording what her grandmother's final political wishes were, word for word?

Since both grandmother and granddaughter are well-versed in legal matters, shouldn't such a significant and fervent wish, with obvious political consequences, have been recorded on the iPhone, so there could be no doubt that that was what Justice Ginsburg actual said, days before her death?

[BernardLanguillier]

For my American friends, what do you intend to do personally if the following happens:
0. Trump violates historical precedents (created by Republicans when they prevented Obama from replacing a supreme court judge 8 months before the end of his mandate) and the spirit of the constitution by nominating a Trump controlled supreme court judge
1. Trump tries everything he can to trick the elections (we have proof he is busy trying to do this it at least in Florida, his attempts to prevent mail voting is well documented,...)
2. Still, he looses the elections on both popular vote and grand elector vote
3. He refuses to acknowledge the results, the thing goes to the supreme court and he steals the election thanks to the newly appointed supreme court judge

Unthinkable in American history, but unfortunately quite plausible.

So I am wondering what each of you plan on doing if such a terrible scenario were to unfold?

Regards,
Bernard

[Ray]

My reply as a non-American friend is that judges are required to be impartial and make decisions based upon the evidence. If large numbers of Americans were not to accept the majority decision of the Supreme Court and start violent protests, like some of the 'Black Lives Matter' protests, then America will become even more chaotic and will continue on its downward slope.

[Chris Kern]

For my American friends, what do you intend to do personally if the following happens. . . .

Frankly, this is as bizarre a scenario as the ones being spread by the right-wing conspiracy theorists who support Trump (perhaps with a little push from operatives working on behalf of Russian intelligence services).

[Robert Roaldi]

Why are you asking me those questions? The rioting, looting, and burning have come from the left and Democrats,  not Trump supporters.

You want to go off on a tangent? Ok.

You have stated many times on these forums that one of the reasons for the 2nd amendment is so citizens can protect themselves from arbitrary governments. You regard this as an important part of civic freedom. But it seems to bother you when some citizens take actions against unfair authority, unfair as perceived by them anyway. Let me ask you, did you really think that people would only take up arms to defend themselves against government power in ways that you agreed with? Because that's pretty unrealistic.

In the case of civil insurrection in the US, doesn't it worry you that it keeps happening decade after decade? What might the reason be, do you think?