Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Sinar distribution of Hy6  (Read 36393 times)

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2006, 06:36:20 pm »

i just cant see where will the gain for  leaf/sinar/phase/imacon if all four will have "their" own closed camera system. it simply has to be a question of  time till phase will have it also.
will therefore be sold one unit more? i hardly doubt it,- the only thing which will happen is that the market positions will become much more static cause the price for changing back and camera and maybe even the lenses will increase more than it is now.
probably it will happen the opposite: the number of people who step up from 35mm systems to mf will be less than now, cause the whole mf thing loose much attraction.
so what looks  for the singular company as a logical step for increasing their market share and their profits in short time could end up with the opposite for all four players..... all will loose for it.

and one damokles sword is over all of the four: although noone wants to think in this, i believe its not so unlikely that a real BIG player as canon could see its chance to roll off the whole mf market with a new ( also closed) system, but with a completely other devellopement power behind it and with a completely other calculation in the sold numbers of units and therefore in the prices ( mamiya tried but hasnt had the resources and the experence therefore ).
it could appear that this separation politic prepares the grave of the actual players....... because such a step of a BIG player will be much more easy if it have to compete with four little individual players than with an whole and opened mf market, which would be much more resistant against such a possibility.
without wanting to open any speculativ discussion based on individual rumors...
but i heard things which lead in this direction. at least they ( canon! ) prepare themselve and their product lineup to be prepared to go in such a direction if they  think it will be interesting for them. i hope for the four back manufactors that this will not happen, but they should not make it too easy and invite the real shark........
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

Kumar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 754
    • http://www.bskumarphotography.com
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2006, 07:28:51 pm »

I don't think this question has been answered - Will the Sinar Hy6 allow the use of an Aptus? Or a Leaf AFi a Sinar eMotion? My guess is no, but I hope...

Actually, this model of closed sysytems has always existed in medium format. We had Bronica, Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax and Rollei earlier. Now we have Hasselblad, Mamiya, Rollei-Leaf and Rollei-Sinar. We may still have Rollei-Phase, Rollei-Imacon or Mamiya-Phase. Our confusion and anger arises from the fact that earlier, digital backs were sold as accessories that we could slap onto any of our cameras. Now, cameras have become accessories for backs.

And don't forget that Canon is just waiting for photographers to accept the concept of closed systems for digital medium format. Once that happens, what's to prevent them from coming up with a solution? Or even buying up Mamiya? And while we're guessing. why not buy up Sinar? Hasselblad is now more of a design and marketing company, and it's Chinese, not Swedish anymore. And it can have all the medium format companies for breakfast...

Cheers,
Kumar
Logged

mattlap2

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 134
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2006, 08:28:44 pm »

Quote
I don't think this question has been answered - Will the Sinar Hy6 allow the use of an Aptus? Or a Leaf AFi a Sinar eMotion? My guess is no, but I hope...

Actually, this model of closed sysytems has always existed in medium format. We had Bronica, Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax and Rollei earlier. Now we have Hasselblad, Mamiya, Rollei-Leaf and Rollei-Sinar. We may still have Rollei-Phase, Rollei-Imacon or Mamiya-Phase. Our confusion and anger arises from the fact that earlier, digital backs were sold as accessories that we could slap onto any of our cameras. Now, cameras have become accessories for backs.

And don't forget that Canon is just waiting for photographers to accept the concept of closed systems for digital medium format. Once that happens, what's to prevent them from coming up with a solution? Or even buying up Mamiya? And while we're guessing. why not buy up Sinar? Hasselblad is now more of a design and marketing company, and it's Chinese, not Swedish anymore. And it can have all the medium format companies for breakfast...

Cheers,
Kumar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is my understanding that the Sinar Hy6 is going to use the standard Rollei Mount.   So in that regard it is going to be and will continue to be an open system.   That being said it will be up to the other back manufacturers to make their backs in that mount.    I have no idea if leaf is going to make their back in the standard rollei mount or will develop some sort of proprietory mount.   Phase (I believe) has only  made the P20 in the Rollei mount and has no other back currently in that mount.

So that being said it is up to the back manufacturers to make their backs in a given mount.    

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
Regional Sales Manager
(219) 670-9905
Logged

william

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 472
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2006, 08:37:11 pm »

Hang on: you're saying that the "Hy6 digital back mount" will be the current standard Rollei 6008 mount?  Meaning that any digital back that currently has a Rollei mount would fit and work on any "flavor" Hy6?  If so, that's great and is more in line with the original annoucement of the Hy6.  It is not, however, what is being said (or at the very least, implied) by the Leaf and and other Sinar reps in this thread.

Some clarity from the top at Jenoptik would be helpful...


Quote
It is my understanding that the Sinar Hy6 is going to use the standard Rollei Mount.   So in that regard it is going to be and will continue to be an open system.   That being said it will be up to the other back manufacturers to make their backs in that mount.    I have no idea if leaf is going to make their back in the standard rollei mount or will develop some sort of proprietory mount.   Phase (I believe) has only  made the P20 in the Rollei mount and has no other back currently in that mount.

So that being said it is up to the back manufacturers to make their backs in a given mount.   

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
Regional Sales Manager
(219) 670-9905
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

Kumar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 754
    • http://www.bskumarphotography.com
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2006, 09:06:03 pm »

So it's not a Rollei-Sinar mount or a Rollei-Leaf mount? Rather, it's a Rollei mount. And if it's a standard Rollei mount, then I expect Phase would eventually come on board, after the period of exclusivity is over. Something like the deal that Sinar had with Kodak for the first 22mp back. BUT, a Sinar Hy6 MAY contain additional electronic features that can be accessed only by a Sinarback. Similarly, a Leaf AFi MAY have features available only to Aptus backs. By this I mean that an Aptus WILL mount on a Sinar Hy6, but will function without any electronic features, essentially like a view camera. In such a situation, it would probably work tethered only?

On the other hand, a ROLLEI Hy6 would be compatible with any brand of digital back, with the appropriate adapter. Is this understanding correct?

I wonder if we could get some Rollei and Jenoptik representatives on board as well.

Cheers,
Kumar
Logged

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2006, 09:17:52 pm »

i believe the company which will be brave enough to work with an "open" mount as the rollei will gain market share in the longer term. so i hope  that it be the rollei mount.

in the early bird offer there are some parts which show that this will be the case:
if you buy now a 6008 you can either change it in a hy6 or you can hold it as a backup for a very reasonable price ( the price therefore really is tempting! ). this dos not make any sense if there would be a new mount with the hy6,- sinar will hardly modify the existing 6008 cameras which will be taken as backup bodies.... so the only logic explanation is that the sinar hy mount has to be the same than the rollei 6008 mount.

lets see what leaf will do. maybe another story, as i understood yaya you just can buy a leaf-rollei if you buy also a back. anyway, this says nothing about the mount.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2006, 09:24:12 pm by rehnniar »
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

pss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 960
    • http://www.schefz.com
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2006, 09:24:17 pm »

Quote
It is my understanding that the Sinar Hy6 is going to use the standard Rollei Mount.   So in that regard it is going to be and will continue to be an open system.   That being said it will be up to the other back manufacturers to make their backs in that mount.    I have no idea if leaf is going to make their back in the standard rollei mount or will develop some sort of proprietory mount.   Phase (I believe) has only  made the P20 in the Rollei mount and has no other back currently in that mount.

So that being said it is up to the back manufacturers to make their backs in a given mount.   

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
Regional Sales Manager
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

there is no "standard rollei" mount...for the lenses there is, but not for the backs....the back of the 6000 only fit the 6000 series filmmagazines, the P20 was made by phase to fit the 6008, the p25 could not be adapted because the mount was too narrow for it to be rotated.....all emotion/sinar backs fit on the 6000via adapters....i know the P20 did not even collect data from the camera/lenses (exposure,....)...and the back of the Hy6 has very little in common with the 6000 series...the 4560 film magazine is shown in several pics on the Hy6, but just like on the 6000, it is connected via adapter.....
i guess this shows how much information the new rollei distributer has on their product...brings quality to this discussion....

what we all know and what won't change is that leaf and phase have their own Dback mount...sinar/imacon fit via adapters....so the leaf Hy6 (afi)  will only fit a leaf back unless leaf will make adapters to fit sinar/imacon which is very unlikely, the sinar Hy6 will fit sinar backs via adapter (or they will make sinarbacks just for the Hy6mount, whatever that will be)
the idea that the Hy6 will somehow magically adapt to all backs made for all mounts is totally unrealistic..how many adapters and which adapters will be offered by sinar, rollei, hasselblad,..(or 3rd party manufacturers) remains to be seen...
unless rollei shuts phase out on purpose i don't see why phase would not be able to mount their backs onto the Hy6....but they will probably never fit on a AFi...or via adapter? who knows, who cares? the Hy6 (in whatever mount) will not solve the "tower of babel" of DMF backs and mounts
Logged

pss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 960
    • http://www.schefz.com
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2006, 09:27:43 pm »

Quote
i believe the company which will be brave enough to work with an "open" mount as the rollei will gain market share in the longer term. so i hope  that it be the rollei mount.

in the early bird offer there are some parts which show that this will be the case:
if you buy now a 6008 you can either change it in a hy6 or you can hold it as a backup for a very reasonable price ( the price therefore really is tempting! ). this dos not make any sense if there would be a new mount with the hy6,- sinar will hardly modify the existing 6008 cameras which will be taken as backup bodies.... so the only logic explanation is that the sinar hy mount has to be the same than the rollei 6008 mount.

lets see what leaf will do. maybe another story, as i understood yaya you just can buy a leaf-rollei if you buy also a back. anyway, this says nothing about the mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90910\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

SINAR DOES NOT HAVE TO CHANGE THE MOUNT...THEY SIMPLY GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT ADAPTER!
all emotion backs fit on all cameras because they use adapters....very simple...
Logged

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2006, 09:32:26 pm »

Quote
SINAR DOES NOT HAVE TO CHANGE THE MOUNT...THEY SIMPLY GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT ADAPTER!
all emotion backs fit on all cameras because they use adapters....very simple...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90912\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
but than the back does not work any longer with the 6008 and they explicit offer to hold it as backup body for a good price. how you will use your backup 6008 body? with a second adapter which you will unscrew and change ? does not make sense for me.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2006, 09:32:49 pm by rehnniar »
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

pss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 960
    • http://www.schefz.com
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2006, 09:36:50 pm »

Quote
but than the back does not work any longer with the 6008 and they explicit offer to hold it as backup body for a good price. how you will use your backup 6008 body? with a second adapter which you will unscrew and change ? does not make sense for me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the adapter is on the camera body, not the Dback!!! the Hy6 has totally different dimension then the 6008! very simple: there is a adapter for the emotion for the 6008 right now, that is the one the emotion ships with, when the Hy6 comes out, you simply take the emotion off and INSERT it into teh adapter on the Hy6...
Logged

Kumar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 754
    • http://www.bskumarphotography.com
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2006, 10:00:18 pm »

I think we need a system chart/s here. Very confusing!

Cheers,
Kumar
Logged

James Russell

  • Guest
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2006, 02:36:25 am »

Yaya,

I don't think anybody begrudges Leaf, or Phase or even General Motors desire to make money and protect their brand.  That's what commerce is all about.

Given that, you are coming at this from the view of a digital back manufacturer and I'm coming at this from the view of a photographer that transitioned from film to digital.

It seems to me that Canon is now the way of the world.  One camera, one digital solution, one set of lenses. To me, for medium format to mirror that is not the most positive move as it limits my options as an artist and a business person.

Ask any photographer what he has more passion for, the camera, or the digital device?  I would bet 10 to 1 it's the camera, regardless of the fact that the business model has changed to where the camera is now considered a "give away' compared to the price of the digital device.

What we had, until the last few months were options.

With film we could load twenty different looks into our cameras and with processing options multiply that another 20 times and get to the result pretty easy.

Today the digital backs are the film and the software the lab and especially when we tether we are married to one base film and one lab with a few processing options.

When the Hy6 becomes a Leaf and Sinar only product we are even more limited to one camera, one set of lenses, one film and one lab, maybe two or three labs if the software like Lightroom and RD become fully developed and allow tethering.

For every photographer I know that likes an all in one solution, I know 10 others that don't want to be locked into one camera, lens, "digital film" and lab.

Also today with my Contax, I use Contax, Hasselblad, pentax 6x7 and Urkraine tilt shift lenses.

(BTW: All of my bodies and lenses are also probably 1/2 the cost of the comparable H1/2/3 platform.)

I can put a phase, sinar, Leaf or Hasselblad back on my camera.  Actually I own a P-30 and an A-22 and can find use for both of them.  

With the HY6 being proprietary to Sinar and Leaf and with Leaf having a vested interest in seeing this platform succeed what happens to the R+D towards other platforms like the Contax, Mamiyas, Hasselblads, etc.?

If we try to continue with our Contax, Hasselblads, Mamiyas, will we be locked out and forced to move to the Hy6 and if so what are we actually gaining, other than more limitations?



JR
http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com





Quote
In this digital age, the two important components (and where most of your money goes) are the digital back and the lenses. The shutter/ mirror box in between is secondary but does serve the purpose of making it all work as a system and has to be thoughtfuly designed.

For this discussion, let's also put the software component to the side.

Over the last 4-5 years we have seen a decline in sales of MF cameras and saw Contax, Bronica, some V-models and the GX680 dissappearing.

At the same time, nearly every new MF camera is being sold with a digital back.

With regards to the business model, body and lenses are basically tools for selling digital backs. Take a look at the various offers from pro dealers who give a camera+lens at a discounted rate (or free) if you buy the back from them.

The new camera and lens line are designed to allow for advanced features and qualities that are currently not available on other platforms. Therefore you can assume that Sinar and Leaf will have "better" backs for this camera, in the same way that Hasselblad offer "better" backs for the H system. It may well be "the same" back that if attached to the new camera will preform better then if attached to another platform, becasue the camera allows that.

There is no business gain for Leaf in selling the camera or licencing its spec to other DB makers (the licence belongs to Jenoptik) and therefore the camera will not be sold as a separate item (unless is it a second backup body etc.).

Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

yaya

  • Guest
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2006, 03:55:55 am »

Quote
With the HY6 being proprietary to Sinar and Leaf and with Leaf having a vested interest in seeing this platform succeed what happens to the R+D towards other platforms like the Contax, Mamiyas, Hasselblads, etc.?

If we try to continue with our Contax, Hasselblads, Mamiyas, will we be locked out and forced to move to the Hy6 and if so what are we actually gaining, other than more limitations?
JR
http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90936\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James,

Of course we would like to see this platform succeed, mostly because it allows for greater qualities and capabilities that aren't available on other platforms, therefore giving us an edge.

Still, this is not a DSLR-like, all-in-one system...rotating back, interchangable viewfinders, removable back that can be used on other platforms and so on.

But as I said, the camera is a tool for selling backs and not the oposite, so if you want to buy a new back for your Contax, Mamiya, H1 or V, nothing should stop you from doing just that.

Yair
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2006, 07:30:11 am »

Quote
If that's true, though, then where do the dealer-branded mockups that we've seen pics of fit in?  E.g., the Sinar Hy6, the Leaf AFi?  Presumably, the Leaf AFi camera won't accept anything but Leaf backs, right? (Otherwise, what's the point of it being branded and marketed as the LEAF camera?)

The point is that Leaf could sell a Leaf branded product through the existing Leaf network, and people can feel more secure buying the camera and back from the same company.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 08:16:34 am by foto-z »
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2006, 07:36:35 am »

Quote
It would be a shame but something tells me Leaf may find themselves without a camera partner soon.

Why? I believe contracts for the supply of the Leaf version of the H6 are already signed. There was a press announcement a month or two ago.
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2006, 07:46:57 am »

Quote
I got this info from Thierry and Yair's posts just above.  That seems relatively "official."

Neither one of them ever wrote that the Leaf AFi will not accept a Sinar back, or vice versa. I believe the Hy6 mount is universal and therefore interchangeable. I still haven't seen anything to the contrary and I've read everything I could find.
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2006, 08:07:05 am »

Quote
although noone wants to think in this, i believe its not so unlikely that a real BIG player as canon could see its chance to roll off the whole mf market with a new ( also closed) system, but with a completely other devellopement power behind it and with a completely other calculation in the sold numbers of units and therefore in the prices

The difference between the existing players and Canon is that they already have thousands of users who have already bought into a system, and they already have a complete set of proven lenses and accessories. If Canon were to enter the market, they would have to design and produce a whole new body, a set of lenses and accessories. Then they would have to find a way to sell these complete new systems to people at $10K+ (body, lenses and accessories only, not the digital back). It is a much harder sell than just selling a digital body to someone who already has the lenses. The huge R&D effort could hardly be justified for a market selling so few units compared to 35mm DSLRs. It would not be economical for them to set up a plant to make the large sensors required - they would have to buy from Dalsa or Kodak like everyone else. Would the image quality be better than the existing offerings? I doubt it very much. They could only compete on price but they have the price barrier disadvantage of a new standard. In summary, high cost of entry, high risk, lower margins than the competition (if they compete on price), small market. If there were a compelling business case for them to do it, they already would have.
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2006, 08:11:40 am »

Quote
in the early bird offer there are some parts which show that this will be the case:
if you buy now a 6008 you can either change it in a hy6 or you can hold it as a backup for a very reasonable price ( the price therefore really is tempting! ). this dos not make any sense if there would be a new mount with the hy6,- sinar will hardly modify the existing 6008 cameras which will be taken as backup bodies.... so the only logic explanation is that the sinar hy mount has to be the same than the rollei 6008 mount.

No, the Sinarbacks employ adapters. It is quite possible that they will supply a new adapter for the Hy6. One can't reach any firm conclusions from this offer.

I spoke to someone at Franke & Heidecke months ago and he told me there was a new mount for the Hy6. Whether that means totally new, or mechanically the same but with extra electric interface, I don't know.
Logged

TorbenEskerod

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2006, 09:31:15 am »

xx
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 07:20:40 am by TorbenEskerod »
Logged

hubell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1135
Sinar distribution of Hy6
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2006, 09:34:15 am »

Quote
Given that, you are coming at this from the view of a digital back manufacturer and I'm coming at this from the view of a photographer that transitioned from film to digital.

What we had, until the last few months were options.

With film we could load twenty different looks into our cameras and with processing options multiply that another 20 times and get to the result pretty easy.

Today the digital backs are the film and the software the lab and especially when we tether we are married to one base film and one lab with a few processing options.

When the Hy6 becomes a Leaf and Sinar only product we are even more limited to one camera, one set of lenses, one film and one lab, maybe two or three labs if the software like Lightroom and RD become fully developed and allow tethering.

For every photographer I know that likes an all in one solution, I know 10 others that don't want to be locked into one camera, lens, "digital film" and lab.

I see it quite differently. The digital backs are not the film or the lab. They simply provide raw data that the software is converting into the look of the file that pops open when you import the image into a raw converter. All of the files from the newer MFDBs can be made to look quite similar with the right "corrections" in post-processing, so it is the software, and more specifically, what you do in the software after the image is captured, that dictates the "look" of the file. Until recently, I shot medium format film, and I could decide depending upon a host of considerations like the lighting conditions, the subject matter, the contrast range of the scene, etc, what film to choose. With a MFDB, or any digtial capture for that matter, the images always open with the same default profile, and you then have to fiddle with the images to get them to look how thay would have looked if I had shot them on say Astia or Velvia or whatever. I wish the manufacurer did that for me by providing a set of "looks" that mimicked certain film stocks. The default could be a "neutral" rendition, but there would be a bouquet of options that I could access with one click rather than spending a bunch of time fiddling with the files myself. (There is actually a new software program called DxO Film Pack that does this, but I don't know how well, and in any event it is not available for MFDBs.) I have no problem spending the time working an important file, but I should be able to get files to open up immediately on my desktop looking every bit as good as an Astia chrome looks when I plop it on my light table as soon as it comes back from the lab.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Up