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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 208998 times)

John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6000 on: July 06, 2020, 05:03:33 pm »

You have to understand that our electoral system is a remnant of a time when women, minorities, and renters were (generally speaking, though there were exceptions) not thought qualified to indulge in self-determination.   While the laws have been updated, the creaky legacy structure underneath has some pretty severe issues.

Not really. The electoral system wasn't set up that way to deny votes to women or minorities or the property-less, it was basically set up that way in an attempt to provide better security for the actual vote, when vote fraud was prevalent. There have actually been cases of competing sets of electors heading to Washington, intent on voting for different candidates, based on the same set of popular votes. The electors were essentially asked to guarantee the vote that they were casting was legitimate. It didn't always work smoothly (see the Jefferson-Burr election in 1800) but it was better than getting competing vote totals from remote states at a time when there are no radios, television, trains, cars or any other way to get quickly to Washington other than horseback, to report vote totals.
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John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6001 on: July 06, 2020, 05:04:58 pm »

Trump and Bolsonaro are neck and neck for the award for the worst coronavirus response from a world leader. Trump got an early head start but Bolsonaro is quickly closing the gap. As a gesture of good will among competitors, Trump sent Bolsonaro two million doses of hydroxychloroquine.

Bolsonaro may be closing the gap, but I'd still back Trump for first place.
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John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6002 on: July 06, 2020, 05:17:48 pm »

Isn't it weird that celebrities think that they may be suited for elected office?

I think to become a top celebrity you have to be intensely focused on yourself; within your realm, you have to strive for perfection. In that way, I don't think Trump would be much different than many other celebrities, whatever their background. My wife for a while thought Oprah would be good idea, as an opponent to Trump. I heartily disagreed. One thing that many people, especially Trumpers (but not only Trumpers), don't understand is that politics actually has embedded in it critically important intellectual and economic content that it may literally take years or decades to master. Oprah might be brilliant in her field, and I'm sure she is, but her field isn't politics. Would she know the details of Obamacare and how to push something like that through a reluctant Congress? Trump thinks he's the king, I believe, because he kind of assumed that the President *was* a king, just as he was king of Trump, inc. But he's wrong, and I kind of think Oprah would have made the same assumption, that she was the Queen and everybody was there to do her bidding -- because that was her experience as a major celebrity. People joke about Ronald Reagan as President, but forget that Reagan was a union leader in a tumultuous business, was involved in California politics for quite a while, maneuvered himself through a rapidly changing conservative landscape, spent two terms as a modestly effective California governor, all before running for the Presidency. He was dumb, and probably senile at the end, but he'd paid some dues, which Trump never did, and Oprah hasn't. And that's one of the faults of populism, the belief that any good, honest, hard-working man can go to Washington and succeed. Nope. They get eaten alive.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 05:21:40 pm by John Camp »
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6003 on: July 06, 2020, 07:47:17 pm »

Not really. The electoral system wasn't set up that way to deny votes to women or minorities or the property-less, it was basically set up that way in an attempt to provide better security for the actual vote, when vote fraud was prevalent. There have actually been cases of competing sets of electors heading to Washington, intent on voting for different candidates, based on the same set of popular votes. The electors were essentially asked to guarantee the vote that they were casting was legitimate. It didn't always work smoothly (see the Jefferson-Burr election in 1800) but it was better than getting competing vote totals from remote states at a time when there are no radios, television, trains, cars or any other way to get quickly to Washington other than horseback, to report vote totals.

Of course it wasn't set up to deny the vote to various groups - there was no need to hedge in this (specific) way, as the denial was a feature, not a bug, and was cooked in from the start.  My (admittedly not perfectly stated) point was that the electoral college structure is a remnant of a time where the expectations for election and representation were different than they are today.   Logistics, as you mentioned, were a part of it, but there was also the concern that the general public couldn't be trusted with such responsibility.

From Federalist 68:

Quote
It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations.

Of course, Hamilton, in the same essay, also wrote:

Quote
The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications. Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union, or of so considerable a portion of it as would be necessary to make him a successful candidate for the distinguished office of President of the United States.

So much for those safeguards....

Incidentally, Madison was, from the start, a proponent of a popular vote-based system for electing the president, but his stated reasons for accepting the electoral college system were rooted mainly in an understanding that smaller and slave states would not concur, not any concern over logistical difficulties.

Madison on Madison from the Constitutional Convention:

Quote
The option before us, then, lay between an appointment by Electors chosen by the people, and an immediate appointment by the people. He thought the former mode free from many of the objections which had been urged against it, and greatly preferable to an appointment by the National Legislature. As the Electors would be chosen for the occasion, would meet at once, and proceed immediately to an appointment, there would be very little opportunity for cabal, or corruption: as a further precaution, it might be required that they should meet at some place distinct from the seat of government; and even that no person within a certain distance of the place at the time, should be eligible. This mode, however, had been rejected so recently, and by so great a majority, that it probably would not be proposed anew. The remaining mode was an election by the people, or rather by the qualified part of them at large. With all its imperfections, he liked this best. He would not repeat either the general arguments for, or the objections against, this mode. He would only take notice of two difficulties, which he admitted to have weight. The first arose from the disposition in the people to prefer a citizen of their own State, and the disadvantage this would throw on the smaller States. Great as this objection might be, he did not think it equal to such as lay against every other mode which had been proposed. He thought, too, that some expedient might be hit upon that would obviate it. The second difficulty arose from the disproportion of qualified voters in the Northern and Southern States, and the disadvantages which this mode would throw on the latter.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 08:08:35 pm by James Clark »
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6004 on: July 06, 2020, 07:58:21 pm »

You have to understand that our electoral system is a remnant of a time when women, minorities, and renters were (generally speaking, though there were exceptions) not thought qualified to indulge in self-determination.   While the laws have been updated, the creaky legacy structure underneath has some pretty severe issues.

The statement above is an accurate representation of both the history and where we find ourselves today regarding US federal elections and voting rights in general.

Not really. The electoral system wasn't set up that way to deny votes to women or minorities or the property-less, it was basically set up that way in an attempt to provide better security for the actual vote, when vote fraud was prevalent. There have actually been cases of competing sets of electors heading to Washington, intent on voting for different candidates, based on the same set of popular votes. The electors were essentially asked to guarantee the vote that they were casting was legitimate. It didn't always work smoothly (see the Jefferson-Burr election in 1800) but it was better than getting competing vote totals from remote states at a time when there are no radios, television, trains, cars or any other way to get quickly to Washington other than horseback, to report vote totals.

The statement above is not accurate. First, there is nothing in the Constitution, including all of the amendments and up to and including the present day, which guarantees a right for any US citizen to vote. This is due to the deep disagreements between the framers as to who should be allowed to vote. They therefore left it to the states to determine, which has resulted in a ridiculous and confusing mess. Your right to vote depends on where you reside.

Second, the existence of the "Electoral College" (a term which is found nowhere in the Constitution, interestingly) was based on a compromise at the Constitutional Convention between a plan proposed by Virginia to have the President chosen by a vote of Congress and the desires of some for election by a popular vote of "qualified citizens". It had nothing to do with "security for the actual vote" by the chosen Electors as that is left to the individual states. It had nothing to do with "getting competing vote totals from remote states" or "electors heading to Washington". Electors do not head to Washington and never have. Electors meet in their own states and have from the beginning. It can be reasonably assumed that the distances involved and the lack of instantaneous communication, at the time the electoral system was devised and Congress determined the dates for various steps in the process, are part of the reasoning for Electors being chosen in their states in November, Electors meeting in their respective states in December to vote, and the Electors votes being counted in the US Senate in January. Plus, this allows time for challenges to be resolved.

It is true there have been events like the 1800 (Jefferson-Burr) and 1824 (Adams-Jackson) electoral tie votes in which case the House of Representatives chooses the President and the Senate chooses the Vice-President.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 08:27:36 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6005 on: July 06, 2020, 08:22:59 pm »

From Federalist 68:

So much for those safeguards....

Thanks for the Federalist 68 quotations. I've enjoyed reading all of the Federalist essays multiple times.

Also from Hamilton in Federalist 68...

"Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union?"

* These discussions regarding the electoral system and voting should probably be held over in the thread for US Elections 2020. I may post more thoughts on that thread when I find time and energy.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 08:32:31 pm by TechTalk »
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6006 on: July 06, 2020, 08:31:31 pm »

Thanks for the Federalist 68 quotations. I've enjoyed reading all of the Federalist essays multiple times.

Read Madison's contemporary notes as well, if you haven't.  The Federalist essays are a well thought out, passionate defense of the Constitution in its "complete" form, but they're written as persuasion.  Madison's notes give a much better perspective on the areas where disagreements were raised (and resolved) as the document was created.  At a minimum, it will (should) forever disabuse anyone of the idea that you can say "The Founders thought..." with any sort of monolithic certainty.

Which is (one reason) why strict originalism is total nonsense, but I (wildly) digress....
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 08:34:53 pm by James Clark »
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6007 on: July 06, 2020, 08:54:33 pm »

Read Madison's contemporary notes as well, if you haven't.  The Federalist essays are a well thought out, passionate defense of the Constitution in its "complete" form, but they're written as persuasion.  Madison's notes give a much better perspective on the areas where disagreements were raised (and resolved) as the document was created.  At a minimum, it will (should) forever disabuse anyone of the idea that you can say "The Founders thought..." with any sort of monolithic certainty.

Which is (one reason) why strict constructionism is total nonsense, but I (wildly) digress....

I couldn't agree with you more! Every election season, and every time in between, when I hear someone say "what the Founders wanted or thought" it makes me cringe. Listening to contemporary commentators, you would think that the Founders were not only in agreement with each other back in their own time, but also in agreement with whatever is being said by the politician or pundit about an issue today.

They disagreed vociferously with each other on nearly every issue, but somehow managed a compromise. It's one of their most important lessons that was left for us; that is widely ignored today.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 11:48:17 pm by TechTalk »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6008 on: July 06, 2020, 11:37:35 pm »

They disagreed vociferously with each other on nearly every issue, but somehow managed a compromise. It's one of their most important lessons that was left for us; that is widely ignored today.

Well noted.  Precisely the opposite of compromise is what we've seen for the last decade.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6009 on: July 07, 2020, 12:42:12 am »

You have to understand that our electoral system is a remnant of a time when women, minorities, and renters were (generally speaking, though there were exceptions) not thought qualified to indulge in self-determination.   While the laws have been updated, the creaky legacy structure underneath has some pretty severe issues.
The Electoral System has nothing to do with women, minorities, or anyone else.  It has to do with the Federal system where you have 50 equal states (13 in the beginning) making up the country and allowing the smaller states some protection from being pushed around by the larger more populated states.  That's similar to the UN General Assembly where each nation has one vote regardless of its geographic size or population. 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6010 on: July 07, 2020, 12:56:53 am »

I couldn't agree with you more! Every election season, and every time in between, when I hear someone say "what the Founders wanted or thought" it makes me cringe. Listening to contemporary commentators, you would think that the Founders were not only in agreement with each other back in their own time, but also in agreement with whatever is being said by the politician or pundit about an issue today.

They disagreed vociferously with each other on nearly every issue, but somehow managed a compromise. It's one of their most important lessons that was left for us; that is widely ignored today.
Of course the Founders disagreed on what the final rules should be.  But once those rules were agreed to and memorialized in the written Constitution, it's the constitution that counts.  Using arguments by the "losers" of the arguments makes no sense and has nothing to do with strict interpretation.  You have to go to the written final words for the rules.  Unfortunately, justices have read more into those words than are there in many cases enacting de facto laws never intended by the people or enacted by the Congress.  It's one of the reasons we have a huge, abusive, out-of-control central government, something all the Founders never intended. 

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6011 on: July 07, 2020, 03:36:56 am »

Bolsonaro may be closing the gap, but I'd still back Trump for first place.

Bolsonaro showed symptoms yesterday (fever and body aches), waiting for test results. I hope he does not die, but like Boris, comes back with a new respect for the disease.

KLaban

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6012 on: July 07, 2020, 04:25:16 am »

Absolutely true. You can't make this stuff up. Stable genius. The leader of the free world. Well, used to be.

Indeed.

The best thing that can be said of Trump's handling of the Covid-19 crisis is that it deflects attention from our own ginger buffoon's handling here in the UK.

jeremyrh

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6013 on: July 07, 2020, 05:47:45 am »

Indeed.

The best thing that can be said of Trump's handling of the Covid-19 crisis is that it deflects attention from our own ginger buffoon's handling here in the UK.

Steady on, I don't think we're allowed to criticise "Johnson" Johnson are we?
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rabanito

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6014 on: July 07, 2020, 06:30:00 am »

Bolsonaro showed symptoms yesterday (fever and body aches), waiting for test results. I hope he does not die, but like Boris, comes back with a new respect for the disease.
No problem if Bolsonaro dies. He has three sons governing Brazil with him.
Anyone can take over
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6015 on: July 07, 2020, 08:14:50 am »

Second wave?

Five million residents of the Australian city of Melbourne have been told to stay at home for six weeks, amid a surge in coronavirus cases.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53319554

hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6016 on: July 07, 2020, 09:39:26 am »

Second wave?

Five million residents of the Australian city of Melbourne have been told to stay at home for six weeks, amid a surge in coronavirus cases.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53319554

I doubt it. Probably someone bringing into the country from abroad.

Australia's surge is the USA drop in the bucket. 197 cases are a surge...but Australia is taking it seriously by locking down and controlling the outbreak. Compare this to the US.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6017 on: July 07, 2020, 10:00:22 am »

I doubt it. Probably someone bringing into the country from abroad.

Australia's surge is the USA drop in the bucket. 197 cases are a surge...but Australia is taking it seriously by locking down and controlling the outbreak. Compare this to the US.
Does it matter how a second wave started, whether internal or external? After all, the first wave came from external sources.  It didn't spontaneously start in Australia. Interestingly, nearby New Zealand has been doing pretty well.  I wonder if this will cause them to up the ante in keeping their island nation isolated from foreigners?

Also, what effect will this have on Australia's economy?   Should they have kept it going and just told old people to stay home? 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6018 on: July 07, 2020, 10:41:49 am »

EUROPE NEWS
EU cuts economic forecasts for the region, now projecting a 8.3% slump this year


"The outlook has worsened over the last two months irrespective of the steps that most European countries have taken to reopen their economies."
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/07/eu-cuts-economic-forecasts-for-the-region.html

faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6019 on: July 07, 2020, 10:47:38 am »

This is why the United States is recording 50,000+ new cases a day:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/07/florida-carsyn-davis-coronavirus/

"A medical examiner’s report recently made public, however, has raised questions about Carsyn’s case. The Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner found that the immunocompromised teen went to a large church party with roughly 100 other children where she did not wear a mask and social distancing was not enforced. Then, after getting sick, nearly a week passed before she was taken to the hospital, and during that time her parents gave her hydroxychloroquine, an anti-malarial drug touted by President Trump that the Food and Drug Administration has issued warnings about, saying usage could cause potentially deadly heart rhythm problems."

Oh, her father was a physician assistant and her mother was a nurse. They tried putting her in her grandfather's oxygen tent before finally taking her to the hospital where they refused to have her intubated. Two hospital transfers later, she was finally intubated but it was too late. She died.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/two-weeks-prior-to-dying-from-coronavirus-teen-attended-church-party-with-100-people-report





« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 11:24:50 am by faberryman »
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