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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 499609 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2020, 11:38:07 am »

Meanwhile, Anthony Fauci has receiving multiple threats, they don't say from whom.

Trump dismissed the reports of threats against Fauci at Wednesday’s task force briefing, suggesting the top doctor, who he said used to be a basketball player, could defend himself.
“He doesn’t need security. Everybody loves him,” Trump said. “Besides that, they’d be in big trouble if they ever attacked him.”
So you ignore Trump's sense of humor and banter with Fauci and take him literally like he isn't having the Secret Service protect him if there are threats.   

kers

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2020, 11:42:42 am »

Yes, but only coronavirus is growing exponentially.

Yes, flu kills 500,000 in a year. Coronavirus kills 50,000 in 12 days. And it's growing exponentially. Do the math.

and there is no cure
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2020, 11:45:35 am »

It will interesting to see if social distancing will affect the number of infections and deaths due to "normal" flus. My guess is that they will drop too.

As they stand, the above numbers mean almost nothing. Since we cannot measure the number of people who would have died from Covid-19 had no action been taken, then we end up in circles again. In that sense this is a repeat argument that the millennium bug wasn't real.
But birth rates will go up.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2020, 11:48:00 am »

Yes, but only coronavirus is growing exponentially.

Yes, flu kills 500,000 in a year. Coronavirus kills 50,000 in 12 days. And it's growing exponentially. Do the math.
We're guessing where the final numbers will be.  If it dies out soon, then there should be less than the deaths from season flu.  Still terrible.  Why don't we lock up the old people, like me,  and leave everyone else alone?

Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2020, 11:53:58 am »

This podcast is a very illuminating discussion of the history of Covid-19 by a reporter with decades of work in pandemics. It is partly factual and partly political. A good timeline of what happened and why, since there is some confusion https://radioopensource.org/the-pandemics-path/#.

I include here because of the politics.

Wow, that lady has a very distinct politial agenda.  Her timeline is not really any different than any others I have seen.  I'l refrain from any further comment on her and her advice.

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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2020, 11:56:07 am »

Wow, that lady has a very distinct politial agenda.  Her timeline is not really any different than any others I have seen.  I'l refrain from any further comment on her and her advice.


In fairness to Roaldi, he did say it was political and factual.  Finding the dividing line is always the problem.

Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2020, 12:02:29 pm »

Meanwhile, Anthony Fauci has receiving multiple threats, they don't say from whom.

Trump dismissed the reports of threats against Fauci at Wednesday’s task force briefing, suggesting the top doctor, who he said used to be a basketball player, could defend himself.
“He doesn’t need security. Everybody loves him,” Trump said. “Besides that, they’d be in big trouble if they ever attacked him.”

There are nuts everywhere who don't like somebody somewhere.

And your point is?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2020, 12:03:11 pm »

In fairness to Roaldi, he did say it was political and factual.  Finding the dividing line is always the problem.

Yes he did.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2020, 12:16:44 pm »

It will interesting to see if social distancing will affect the number of infections and deaths due to "normal" flus. My guess is that they will drop too.

As they stand, the above numbers mean almost nothing. Since we cannot measure the number of people who would have died from Covid-19 had no action been taken, then we end up in circles again. In that sense this is a repeat argument that the millennium bug wasn't real.

No, its not.  It is simply a set of data points.  Use them as you see fit.

I agree we cannot measure the effects of steps taken to minimize covid 19.  Yet people, who might want to score political points, try to do just that. I'm not implicating you with that statement.  It's just a statement of fact. As it applies to the current context, some say this leader caused deaths becuse they failed to take this action.  But they don't really know.  Others may say this leaders saved so many deaths becuase they took this action but again we don't know, simply because we can't see what might have happened when the inverse is applied.  Its all a guess but it does not stop any of us from still using the tactic.  I'm guilty to be sure.

Everyone wants to blame someone.  Some people are just bigger targets than others.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2020, 12:42:35 pm »

No, its not.  It is simply a set of data points.  Use them as you see fit.

Limbaugh was not just providing a set of data points. His meaning was implicit and I was disputing it.
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2020, 12:44:00 pm »

But birth rates will go up.  :)

Not necessarily.

Quote
The number of births for the United States last year dropped to its lowest in about three decades, according to provisional data in a new report from the National Center for Health Statistics at the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
"Even though the number of births we've seen in 2018 is the lowest that we've seen in 32 years, the total fertility rate is at a record low," said Brady Hamilton, a natality expert at the center and first author of the report.



https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/health/us-birth-rate-record-low-cdc-study/index.html
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 12:47:29 pm by LesPalenik »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2020, 12:50:26 pm »

Not necessarily.



https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/health/us-birth-rate-record-low-cdc-study/index.html

I wonder how much of that is because of how precarious employment is for many people in their child-rearing years, and so they're not starting families yet. The drug stores are still open so they can still buy contraceptives, many just more of them?  :)
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2020, 01:00:32 pm »

Limbaugh was not just providing a set of data points. His meaning was implicit and I was disputing it.

I provided it as a set of data points.  You can choose to take it as you wish.

Added on edit.

But instead of implying anything lets got to the tape so to speak and you  can read it for yourself.

Limbaugh:
CALLER: Even kind of something with my father, who passed away — and he passed away in 2009. It’s something we did together. And I’ve been a longtime Rush listener, first-time caller. And this is just an amazing moment for me.

RUSH: Well, thank you, sir, it’s really, really great to have you here.

CALLER: In high school I used to be made fun of because at lunch I’d go out to my car and listen to you instead of sitting with everybody else. So — (laughing) But I found the situation with the kids on the beach pretty mind-boggling with the media, left or right, where they were chastising these kids on the beach down in Florida. I don’t remember if you remember that ’cause you were down so hard.

RUSH: Well, no, no, no. I’ve seen it since. There was a — look. The town website where I live is chiding people for being on the beach, for standing too close together while their dogs are pooping. I mean, you wouldn’t believe it. I’ve seen it all.

CALLER: Well, you know, I find it really ironic that, you know, this virus, it attacks the Boomer generation, right? That’s the most susceptible generation to this virus. And everyone gets on their soapbox and preaches about these kids on the beach out there partying, throwing morals to the wind, getting drunk. But yet the generation that’s complaining the most about it is the generation that was in Woodstock, out there having sex in the open, doing drugs, you know, this is a generation that, you know, gave us abortion on demand, threw our morals to the wind, stuck our kids in day cares, you know, spit on returning soldiers, dodged the draft, but now they expect us, the younger generation, to fall right in line —

RUSH: Well, you know, that’s right. In a sense you have a point. Some of the Boomers have become old men yelling at kids to get off their yards. But you’re talking about the spring breakers, yeah, and I know the boomers that were doing everything they were doing in the sixties with the free love and the love-ins in San Francisco and all this stuff and the drugs now getting all upset about things, but they think they’re entitled.

But the boomer generation, I’m a Boomer, and much of the Boomer generation embarrasses me. Not the part of it I identify with, but a bunch of freeloaders. They never had life tough. So they had to invent their traumas to tell themselves that life was tough. And they made life tough for themselves by inventing all these different traumas. But, you know, you mention something. I’ve got some stats here that I want to share with you. You triggered something here, and you’ll hear it as I go through this. Thank you, Jacob, for the call.

I have here from a source called worldometers.info or if you’re in Rio Linda, world-o-meters.info. Worldwide deaths, January 1st through March 25th of this year. Are you ready? Worldwide deaths from January 1st to March 25th, 2020, 21,000 deaths coronavirus. And that’s the low number. The lowest number of deaths, January 1st, March 25th, coronavirus. Now keep that number, 21,000 coronavirus deaths, and counting. We have to say “and counting.” Now, 113,000 deaths by seasonal flu, 228,000 deaths by malaria. Around the world, worldwide, worldwide. Not America. Worldwide.

Let me start again. I know numbers are hard to follow on radio. I do it better than most because I am patient. This is January 1st through March 25th. So basically three months.

Coronavirus, 21,000 deaths.
Seasonal flu, 113,000.
Malaria, 228,000.
Suicide, 249,000.
Traffic fatalities, 313, almost 314,000 deaths.
HIV/AIDS, 391,000 deaths.
Alcohol related deaths, 581,000.
Smoking-related deaths, 1,162,000.
Cancer deaths, 1,909,000 deaths.
Deaths attributed to starvation, 2,382,000 deaths.
And death by abortion, 9,900,000.

In the first three months of this year, January 1 through March 25th.

I’m not trying to make any correlation. I’m not I’m trying to say, “Hey, we’re overreacting to coronavirus death.” I’m just giving you the stats here. You can react to these stats however you wish: 21,000 coronavirus; 113,000 flu; 228,000 malaria; 250,000 suicide; 313,000 traffic; 390,000 AIDS; 581,000 booze; 1,162,000 smoking; two million cancer; 2,300,000 hunger; 9,900,000 abortion.

Throw the abortion numbers out. I’m not trying to be provocative here. I mean, you can’t. But throw ’em out, you still have some really shocking numbers. Because we don’t talk about it. We got suicide hotlines. We try to teach people to drive safely. We do whatever we do with HIV/AIDS. We tell people to drink responsibly, tell people not to smoke, try to devise cancer treatments, we try to feed people.
BREAK TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: Here’s Roland in Houston. Roland, you’re next. It’s great to have you on the EIB Network. Hi.

CALLER: Dittos. Thank God that you’re here behind the golden mic to bring us back to ground earth. Two quick points. First, on your theory or your wonder as to why California’s numbers are so low, relative to New York, I believe the difference is the mass transit. You have five plus million a day in New York versus a couple hundred thousand at best in California.

Second point, and most importantly, addressing your concern about everyone’s lack of understanding of what’s gonna be the result of all of this chaos and your uncertainty concern as well. I believe if Trump took the position that going forward we should be obligated to tell the states, tell the media, tell everyone including the CDC to report the flu effects every year when it comes to deaths. And we have zero impact on the economy despite all of these absolutely related deaths taking place. I’d appreciate your opinion. Thanks.

RUSH: Well, I was one of the early, shall we say, leaders in informing people of the Swine flu back in 2009 and 2010. Those numbers are astounding. Let me see if I can — I don’t have ’em in front of me. There were 80,000 deaths, 300,000 infections, and there’s some millions in here too. The Swine flu was devastating. It dwarfs what’s happening here. And we didn’t shut down anything. In fact, Obama was credited for brilliantly handling the crisis. And it was used, Swine flu numbers were used to tout and promote Obamacare.

So I used the numbers, and I throw them out, and the reaction I got is, “Rush, you can’t compare the flu to this. This isn’t the flu. A, it’s worse than the flu. The flu, we’ve got vaccines — and because we’ve got vaccines, the country has become accustomed and accepting of the annual number of deaths from it because we’ve got prevention methods.

“We’ve got flu shots. We’ve handled the mutations of the flu. But when it comes to coronavirus, we have not one thing to defend ourselves against it.” Here are the numbers for Swine flu, 2009-2010: 61 million infected, 300,000 hospitalized, over 12,000 dead. It was more than 12,000 dead. But regardless: 61 million infected, 300,000 hospitalized, and nobody gave it a second thought in 2009-2010.

You probably don’t even remember it, and what I was told was, “You can’t compare ’em, Rush. The flu is not this. We’ve got medicines for the flu. We’ve got preventions for the flu. We’ve got vaccines. So, as a society, we have accepted that there will be a number of deaths and hospitalizations because we have ways to fight it.

“And the flu kills specific groups — you know, elderly people, people with pre-existing conditions — that makes ’em susceptible to it. But this, we have not one defense to it except staying home,” and so, they say, “You can’t compare it.” Well, okay. I’ll accept that. Then we’re not gonna have a vaccine until a year from September. Therefore, we’re not gonna have a coronavirus shot until a year from September.

I don’t know when we’re gonna have medicines for it. We supposedly do now. In fact, I can’t remember the name of it, but I was reading earlier today that there’s an erectile dysfunction drug that is being shown to be effective. They’ve tried it. There’s a clinical trial of an erectile dysfunction drug, and they’re in a trial.

Half the people in the trial are getting the drug, half are getting a placebo. They’re studying it and so forth. It’s been shown to be effective. But this is months and months and months away, as all the other trials are. Now, we’ve got chloroquine and the Z-Pak, and I would really… It’s being used, and I would really like to know what the success rate is in various places where it’s being tried.

But we’re not being told, and I don’t know why. And I don’t want to speculate as to why. Even the president yesterday has changed his tune. He said, “This isn’t the flu. It’s worse than the flu, and we can’t compare it to the flu,” and in a way, that’s true. We accept 50,000 traffic deaths a year. We accept cancer deaths. We accept suicides. We accept ’em.

Well, we haven’t accepted. We have accommodated.

We don’t stop. We don’t shut down the country every time somebody commits suicide. We don’t stop the country when somebody gets the flu or gets hospitalized with or dies from it. And it’s because we’ve just accepted it. It’s a part of life, and there are prevention methods, and there are things you can do to help people not succumb to those things. With this, there’s nothing yet, and so that’s the big — shall we say — difference or equalizer.

We’ve got nothing to tell people to do other than hibernate.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 01:10:22 pm by Craig Lamson »
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rabanito

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2020, 01:26:21 pm »

Our real place in creation cannot be described by biology.  Biology describes the how, not the why or the point.  I think a "good read" of Ecclesiastes might be better than a "good read" of "Campbell".  You'll find out.

Of course it doesn't, Alan. Reading Biology (or Physics or whatever) you can discover how magnificent the Creation in reality is.
Then by comparison you can discover by yourself your place in it. A lesson in humbleness.
And a joy in discovery.

Give that a chance. Now "thanks" to Covid we have lots of time.  :)
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2020, 01:37:54 pm »


But instead of implying anything lets got to the tape so to speak and you  can read it for yourself.
Limbaugh:

This was the man who got the medal of honor?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2020, 01:43:03 pm »

This was the man who got the medal of honor?

No he did not get the Medal of Honor.

Presidential Medal of Freedom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidential_Medal_of_Freedom_recipients
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Rob C

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Re: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2020, 02:27:32 pm »

They are alive and well, Rob, and should not be thrown out just because you cant understand them. 

Should England burn the Writ of Habeas Corpus?  After all, it is, apparently to you, an antiquated document from the 1600s.  Surely due process for those who have been arrested has outlived its use by now.

Different things. For a start, it's not a belief system designed for the relatively recent dark ages of American existence that manages, today, to put modern guns into the hands of people who could just a well use them to go and murder kids in schools or other people in the street. To the best of my knowlege, Britain has only had one school mass shooting (one too many) and that was in Scotland. Yes, lots of people still get murdered by knife, but you can't usually mass kill people that way: somebody stops you a lot more easily.

It's so simple to do what you have done, take one unrelated piece of material from the past and use it to make a false analogy with another. The problem with that is that you only fool the less than able reader. That type really doesn't matter much, neither one way nor the other. In fact, it's hard to think of an even less applicable example than the one you decided to use. That's not to say there are not redundant, dusty old laws on the Brit books today, but I don't believe that they have cost modern people their lives. Unless, of course, that makes the Brits basically more civilized, but it would surprise me if that were truly the case; I don't believe many races really are that developed; most just lack the means of owning the weapons creating so much instant havoc.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 05:48:51 pm by Rob C »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2020, 02:48:07 pm »

Different things. For a start, it's not a belief system designed for the relatively recent dark ages of American existence that manages, today, to puts modern guns into the hands of people who could just a well use them to go and murder kids in schools or other people in the street. To the best of my knowlege, Britain has only had one school mass shooting (one too many) and that was in Scotland. Yes, lots of people still get murdered by knife, but you can't usually mass kill people that way: somebody stops you a lot more easily.

It's so simple to do what you have done, take one unrelated piece of material from the past and use it to make a false analogy with another. The problem with that is that you only fool the less than able reader. That type really doesn't matter much, neither one way nor the other. In fact, it's hard to think of an even less applicable example than the one you decided to use. That's not to say there are not redundant, dusty old laws on the Brit books today, but I don't believe that they have cost modern people their lives. Unless, of course, that makes the Brits basically more civilized, but it would surprise me if that were truly the case; I don't believe many races really are that developed; most just lack the means of owning the weapons creating so much instant havoc.

All guns were "modern" in their own time and could and were used to kill innocent people.  That does not make that use correct of even acceptable.  However those very same guns, since the beginning of the USA were also used to protect innocent life and defend both the nation and families.

Analogies can be difficult but autos and trucks are capable of killing scores of people and do so every year.  They can be used to mass killings as well. Are we to ban personal transportation?

Ok you don't understand our attachment the constitution and the rights it represents.  All well and good. Not every Americna agrees but we as a rule cherish that document because it represents Freedom.  YMMV

Gotta go check my spicy meatloaf that is in the smoker...
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2020, 03:15:25 pm »

Of course it doesn't, Alan. Reading Biology (or Physics or whatever) you can discover how magnificent the Creation in reality is.
Then by comparison you can discover by yourself your place in it. A lesson in humbleness.
And a joy in discovery.

Give that a chance. Now "thanks" to Covid we have lots of time.  :)
I agree.  Nature can make me feel very humble.  It's why I enjoy landscape photography so much.  Here's a slide of Hubbard Glacier taken 30 years ago that I just re-discovered and scanned.  When you stand before scenes like this, it opens you up to the wonder and awe of the universe and our smallness in it. 
Hubbard Glacier, Alaska by Alan Klein, on Flickr

JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2020, 04:17:59 pm »

I wonder how much of that is because of how precarious employment is for many people in their child-rearing years, and so they're not starting families yet. The drug stores are still open so they can still buy contraceptives, many just more of them?  :)

It isn't. 

There are two Canadian researchers (I forgot their names right now) that have done a ton of research on birth rates and they have been dropping across the board for some time now.  All developed countries are below the birth rate that you must have in order to maintain a population (2.1 children per adult female), and as soon as India drops to that number, and they will, the world population will start to decrease. 

They predict by 2060 to 2070 we will see the high water mark of 9.5B, and then it will start to decrease. 

Their research has identified 4 reasons for this decline with a 5th on a per case basis.

1.  In a rural area, a child is a financial asset and can work on the farm at a very young age.  In an urban area, a child is a financial liability.  This is the number one reason.  We are becoming more and more urban, and thus birth rates are dropping.  Urban couples only have children for fulfillment, and, as it turned out, that comes pretty fast. 

2.  As soon as a certain aggregate eduction level is achieved by girls, they become ambitious, like boys.  This is a relatively low level to reach, and they quickly realize having too many children will prevent them from developing a career.   

3.  In a rural setting, you main social interactions are with your family, who encourage you to have children.  In an urban setting, your main interactions are with coworkers who dont. 

4.  All religions, either directly or indirectly, teach women are subservient to men.  As we become less religious, women become more independent and less focused on having children. 

5.  (Sometimes)  Socialized medicine is to blame in certain countries.  Doctors make more for c-sections and, if a women would like to stop having children, will just perform a c-section and do a tubal ligation, sterilizing her.  This is a win win and most of the time, the husband is not told. 

This will have some negative effects on the economy of course.  It can be argued strongly that the reason Japan's economy stalled in the 80s was due its shrinking population.  Additionally, younger people innovate at a much higher rate in every area, so having less younger people will effect that. 

Those researcher predict that at the end of this century, the human race will for the first time feel "old."  I very much wonder how that would feel for the first people to experience it.  Would it be depressing or just normal? 

Now, with this being said, religious individuals are above the 2.1 threshold, and it is fairly easy to raise someone to be religious for life.  So the way the population changes would be interesting as well. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 04:21:56 pm by JoeKitchen »
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