The closing of the Covid 19 threads

[John Camp]

As ill-tempered as they sometimes became, as far as I can tell not a single person actually involved in the discussions asked the they be closed. And toward then end, I felt they were becoming somewhat more temperate and at times even collegial, across political divides. Closing them was poorly considered by Jeremy. Manoli's closing of his thread was more understandable, because it was veering into politics after he explicitly asked that no politics be written about. But there are valuable contributions, especially on Manoli's thread, that I miss.

[Craig Lamson]

I find not ask for the thread to be closed but I did ask that something be done about Bernard saying forum members and Trump supporters were responsible in part for Covid 19 deaths in the USA.  He was asked to apologize but instead he doubled down.

I have zero problem with heated conversation, but I draw the line at being called a killer. 

[LesPalenik]

I agree that there was a lot of useful and valuable information and first-hand reports from many countries, even if obscured by some less than exemplary posts.
Hopefully, the other thread will continue in a more civilized and apolitical way.

[Manoli]

Manoli's closing of his thread was more understandable, because it was veering into politics after he explicitly asked that no politics be written about. But there are valuable contributions, especially on Manoli's thread, that I miss.

You won't miss them for long, I closed the thread for 24 hours, hopefully giving us all a chance to cool down. I think that most here know the 'why' so there's no need to go into it again. 

Hopefully we'll be back tomorrow minus the trolling.

[BernardLanguillier]

I find not ask for the thread to be closed but I did ask that something be done about Bernard saying forum members and Trump supporters were responsible in part for Covid 19 deaths in the USA.  He was asked to apologize but instead he doubled down.

I have zero problem with heated conversation, but I draw the line at being called a killer.

I had no intention to reopen this discussion but you are leaving me with no choice.

The reason being that I have never ever called you a killer. A killer is a person who causes directly and purposely the death of another human being. You claiming that I did that is representative of the liberty you are taking with facts to support your beliefs.

I wrote that, as a hard core supporter of Trump, you had a degree of indirect responsibility in the additional causalities resulting from his delayed actions dealing with the covid19 pandemic. And I still think that you do. Even if this is of course partial and, again, indirect. You are part of a group making up 25% of the American population and individual responsibility is obviously always diluted. But it's not zero, not by any means.

Why am I saying so?

- Did you vote for Trump? Yes
- Have you continuously and publicly expressed unconditional support for his positions? Yes
- Could it be reasonably anticipated that Trump would, in the first phase of the pandemic, favor economy ahead of people's life in case of a covid19 like crisis? Yes, and sure enough he did it and said it himself, even if he didn't use those exact words
- Was a covid19 like crisis a reasonable possibility? Yes, we had SRAS, Ebola, HK flue,... before so you knew when you voted for him that he, as a President, would possibly have to face such a crisis
- Has Trump's clearly downplayed the seriousness of the pandemic for far too long? Yes, we have provided clear and objective evidence of this even if you are in denial
- Did Trump have information that could have led him to take a different course of action? Yes, the crisis was already horrible in several other countries (China, Italy,...) while he kept downplaying the pandemic
- Has this resulted in a delayed response from States and lowered awareness in the American public that both significantly increased the death toll? Yes, and he did again 3 days ago when he said he probably wouldn't wear a mask himself

I am of course not saying that you did this on purpose. But when you vote for a leader you are using a very important right. One that can and does impact the life and death of people.

You claiming that have zero responsibility means that you think either or both that:
1. Voters are not at all responsible for the deeds of the elected people they have voted for
2. Trump has done nothing wrong on the pandemic

Both appear to be very unreasonable views based on ethics and facts.

I understand that you don't like me stressing this the way I have, and I apologize for the stress I am causing you. But I am not apologizing for my views because they are unfortunately reasonable, logical and correct. And if this point isn't made now it will never be. Again, I am aware this isn't a popular thing to say.

Cheers,
Bernard

[John Camp]

Stop.

[Chris Kern]

Closing them was poorly considered by Jeremy.

I agree to this extent: as tedious and contentious as the general COVID-19 threads may have been (and the last one Jeremy closed didn't seem to me to be improving in either regard), they at least offered a sandbox for posters with compulsions to harangue each other about U.S. politics, promote bizarre conspiracy or dubious economic theories, and generally let off steam, reducing the likelihood their tirades would infect other threads.

[JoeKitchen]

Looking at you!  Cheers!

[JoeKitchen]

I for one cant wait until this corona virus thing is over so I can ignore Bernard yelling at us over climate change using the same exact arguments. 

[Craig Lamson]

The reason being that I have never ever called you a killer. A killer is a person who causes directly and purposely the death of another human being. You claiming that I did that is representative of the liberty you are taking with facts to support your beliefs.

Here are the facts Bernard, despite your continued attempts to try and dilute your original statement. You should try being truthful, at least once.

Quote from: BernardLanguillier on April 02, 2020, 07:53:20 pm
You don't need to answer me, it's really between you and your conscience. But make no mistake, the non/delayed actions of Trump will have resulted int he death of thousand of people. And you, keeping supporting him, share some responsibility in those deaths.

In this post to Joe you called him a killer, because you claimed he (and me and every Trump supporter) as sharing some responsibility.  You could arguably call that being an accomplice.  In the commission of a crime an accomplice is just as guilty as the person committing the crime. That's what you are claiming for every person who voted for Trump. You called us all killers.

No matter how hard you try to cover up your tracks now, after you got called out, we still have your original words. 

Truth is powerful. you should try it sometime.

And to make matter worse you just tripled down on the claim. Your attempt to reform your discusting statement by trying to spin it is failing.

But thank you Bernard for giving us a view into the real Bernard.  It's not a pretty picture.

[Alan Klein]

I had no intention to reopen this discussion but you are leaving me with no choice.

The reason being that I have never ever called you a killer. A killer is a person who causes directly and purposely the death of another human being. You claiming that I did that is representative of the liberty you are taking with facts to support your beliefs.

I wrote that, as a hard core supporter of Trump, you had a degree of indirect responsibility in the additional causalities resulting from his delayed actions dealing with the covid19 pandemic. And I still think that you do. Even if this is of course partial and, again, indirect. You are part of a group making up 25% of the American population and individual responsibility is obviously always diluted. But it's not zero, not by any means.

Why am I saying so?

- Did you vote for Trump? Yes
- Have you continuously and publicly expressed unconditional support for his positions? Yes
- Could it be reasonably anticipated that Trump would, in the first phase of the pandemic, favor economy ahead of people's life in case of a covid19 like crisis? Yes, and sure enough he did it and said it himself, even if he didn't use those exact words
- Was a covid19 like crisis a reasonable possibility? Yes, we had SRAS, Ebola, HK flue,... before so you knew when you voted for him that he, as a President, would possibly have to face such a crisis
- Has Trump's clearly downplayed the seriousness of the pandemic for far too long? Yes, we have provided clear and objective evidence of this even if you are in denial
- Did Trump have information that could have led him to take a different course of action? Yes, the crisis was already horrible in several other countries (China, Italy,...) while he kept downplaying the pandemic
- Has this resulted in a delayed response from States and lowered awareness in the American public that both significantly increased the death toll? Yes, and he did again 3 days ago when he said he probably wouldn't wear a mask himself

I am of course not saying that you did this on purpose. But when you vote for a leader you are using a very important right. One that can and does impact the life and death of people.

You claiming that have zero responsibility means that you think either or both that:
1. Voters are not at all responsible for the deeds of the elected people they have voted for
2. Trump has done nothing wrong on the pandemic

Both appear to be very unreasonable views based on ethics and facts.

I understand that you don't like me stressing this the way I have, and I apologize for the stress I am causing you. But I am not apologizing for my views because they are unfortunately reasonable, logical and correct. And if this point isn't made now it will never be. Again, I am aware this isn't a popular thing to say.

Cheers,
Bernard

So according to your theory, Craig isn't a killer.  He only drove the getaway car.

Give me a break. 

[KLaban]

...and so it goes on.

[Jeremy Roussak]

See here.

This thread is now closed.

Jeremy