Yes another Moab Entrada question

[Laminarman]

Sorry to bother, but I'm really struggling with Moab Entrada.  I'm using an Epson SureColor P800.  I am talking specifically about my workflow which is digital raw converted to BW, not talking about color prints.  The RAW file is sharpened in NIK RAW sharpener, run through DFine, then converted in Silver Efex and edited for curves..etc in PS.  It's finally output sharpened in NIK.  I do NOT print in ABW but rather turn off color management in PS.  I can get very nice prints on Epson UPP Matte and Hot Press.  My blacks always look a little flat in the Entrada.  I CAN get an acceptable print if I really crank up on the contrast (and watch the highlights) and by the time I get it, my color calibrated NEC monitor looks nothing like the print.  I have experimented with settings, the best I have found is using the Hahnemule Photo Rag profile with Ultra Premium Presentation Matte paper type.  I was always under the impression ABW was to print a color file in BW without doing any work maybe I'll try that?

[MHMG]

..  I do NOT print in ABW but rather turn off color management in PS. 

You can't turn of color management in PS. If by "turn off color management in PS" you mean you are choosing "let printer manage color" in the PS print dialog menu, then you are most likely trying to use Epson's hard-wired color controls, and indeed, this approach is not a particularly good workflow for third party media like Moab Entrada. You are better off trying the Epson ABW mode. That said, another option is to download the ICC profile for Moab Entrada on the Moab Paper website, and the give that a try using "photoshop manages color" in the PS print dialog box and choosing the ICC profile supplied by Moab. Printing RGB color desaturated to B&W or a grayscale file using a good ICC profile should print neutral and near neutrals pretty well.  However, if you can master the ABW workflow, you will get superior monochromatic tones and better print permanence because less color inks are used in all but the most tinted versions of an ABW processed image.

FWIW, Moab Entrada is capable of gorgeous B&W prints. If you aren't getting great results, it's a workflow issue and not the fault of the paper.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[deanwork]

Mark is correct on all of that. Entrada is an excellent paper for monochrome. I’ve found it functions as well as the best matte media I use here that are a lot more expensive. And it has great longevity with no added brighteners.

I did some prints on a clients printer the same as yours and tried my favorite Epson ink workflow  using QTR and had very good blacks and excellent neutrality. Then we tried the ABW workflow and it was great too, so I would recommend either with that specific printer. I have found that tweaking print color, including neutral toned prints to be more flexible with QTR. There are many varieties of subtle “neutral” that can be created with the QTR toning sliders. The guy who created those QTR curves was using one of those printers specificity to make them himself and did an excellent job. I don’t remember if Entrada had a specific curve for it but I believe it did.

The problem with using a standard rgb profile is you probably use more color inks than necessary.

John

You can't turn of color management in PS. If by "turn off color management in PS" you mean you are choosing "let printer manage color" in the PS print dialog menu, then you are most likely trying to use Epson's hard-wired color controls, and indeed, this approach is not a particularly good workflow for third party media like Moab Entrada. You are better off trying the Epson ABW mode. That said, another option is to download the ICC profile for Moab Entrada on the Moab Paper website, and the give that a try using "photoshop manages color" in the PS print dialog box and choosing the ICC profile supplied by Moab. Printing RGB color desaturated to B&W or a grayscale file using a good ICC profile should print neutral and near neutrals pretty well.  However, if you can master the ABW workflow, you will get superior monochromatic tones and better print permanence because less color inks are used in all but the most tinted versions of an ABW processed image.

FWIW, Moab Entrada is capable of gorgeous B&W prints. If you aren't getting great results, it's a workflow issue and not the fault of the paper.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Laminarman]

First of all, my apologies, I turned off color management in the PRINTER not PS, so I had that covered. My mistake.  I printed a few in ABW and indeed they are better.  So thank you for that!  What are QTR Sliders?  Are you talking about brightness, contrast shadow tonality under the advanced tab? Once you dial all this stuff in, how do you remember if you want to reprint it exactly the same way in a few years?   I am envious of people who work with one or two papers and get to know them well.  I have to nail something down. I keep trying Entrada because universally it gets great reviews.

[deanwork]

Download the shareware for free, then pay them $50.00. Best money you’ll ever spend. Forget about all that nick effects junk.

http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRoverview.html

https://groups.io/g/QuadToneRIP

QTR allows you to use one cure for the print color you want, warm, neutral, cool, sepia. Or blend them in highlights, midtones, or shadows, as a split tone situation. But for most work you can blend two hues in all the tonal areas say for a nice neutral, 60% warm and 40% cool, and easily reuse that setting for anything in the future. Curves for specific papers are included and people share handmade curves on the QTR user group.

For the first time that I am aware of Roy has made a specific neutral curve so blending cool and warm isn’t necessary.  This software uses less of the color channels and has very little color shift when viewed under different light sources.

John



quote author=Laminarman link=topic=134494.msg1161264#msg1161264 date=1586052697]
First of all, my apologies, I turned off color management in the PRINTER not PS, so I had that covered. My mistake.  I printed a few in ABW and indeed they are better.  So thank you for that!  What are QTR Sliders?  Are you talking about brightness, contrast shadow tonality under the advanced tab? Once you dial all this stuff in, how do you remember if you want to reprint it exactly the same way in a few years?   I am envious of people who work with one or two papers and get to know them well.  I have to nail something down. I keep trying Entrada because universally it gets great reviews. This software is hosted by photoshop or print tool but uses its on interface.


John
[/quote]

[Eric Brody]

I have been using Moab Entrada for many years, with QTR for my monochrome images. I like many things about the paper but deep blacks are not one of them. It is quite challenging to maintain detail in the deep shadows. I tend not to use it for images that have a large area of deep black. Charles Cramer tested a bunch of papers for D-Max. With Entrada Natural, everything below an L (as in Lab) value of 18 is totally black. In contrast, Canson Platine has a black L value of 5.5. Almost all the matte papers struggle with deep black detail. For images with lots of shadow detail, I usually bite the bullet and switch to PK ink on my 3880 and use Epson Premium Luster (Black L 2.8 ) for work prints, and Canson Platine for final prints.

Numbers don't lie.

[Alan Goldhammer]

When I had an Epson 3880, I used QTR tools all the time.  Alas, that printer is no more and I now have a Canon Pro-1000.  I create my own profiles and always add a B/W ramp patch set so the profile can provide better support for monochrome printing.  I have done some nice printing on Moab Entrada this way.  You are never going to get as deep a black as with a photo black paper but with care, very fine prints can be made.

[Laminarman]

OK thank you.  Yes, I've heard of Quad Tone so I will certainly look at that.  I was under the impression it would make my work more complicated and it would be a hassle. Not sure what I'm doing with NIK is any less tedious.  Prints on Epson Exhibition Fiber are gorgeous if i'm picking a more "traditional" surface.  I knew all along this was me because there can't be so many positive impressions while mine suck.  I will have to look at the Canson Platine, I've heard good things but never tried it.  Thank you again everyone.

[MHMG]

... Prints on Epson Exhibition Fiber are gorgeous if i'm picking a more "traditional" surface.  I knew all along this was me because there can't be so many positive impressions while mine suck.  I will have to look at the Canson Platine, I've heard good things but never tried it.  Thank you again everyone.

If "Signature worthy" was more than just market hype, Epson should have pulled Exhibition Fiber from that group a long time ago. Light induced yellowing of Epson Exhibition Fiber paper is not an outcome for a fine art print that I'd want to put my signature on. just sayin...many wiser "traditional fiber" choices on the market.

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Laminarman]

If "Signature worthy" was more than just market hype, Epson should have pulled Exhibition Fiber from that group a long time ago. Light induced yellowing of Epson Exhibition Fiber paper is not an outcome for a fine art print that I'd want to put my signature on. just sayin...many wiser "traditional fiber" choices on the market.

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Point well taken but I don't sell any photos, I just hang them up to enjoy them and others to see.  I would use a more archival choice if I were to sell or thought they were good enough to be worth a dime in the future.  I should have rephrased it to say I get much better looking prints on it than Entrada.

[MHMG]

...  I should have rephrased it to say I get much better looking prints on it than Entrada.

Yes, of course, it's always easier to make a lively print on media that have a higher dynamic range from maximum paper white L* value to minimum L* media black values. It's a matter of physics that matte papers will always have lower dynamic range than glossy/luster media. What I'm saying is that the disparity that made it easier for you to get pleasing prints on on Exhibition Fiber than on Entrada holds true for all glossy/luster media, even low cost RC photo media, compared to any media with a matte surface. That said, if you know how to carefully edit images for printing on matte media, i.e., increasing mid tone contrast,  burning highlights and opening up shadows using additional layers and masking techniques to coax better tonal separations in highlights and shadows, then matte papers can produce results which are actually superior in visual aesthetics to the same image printed on glossy media when a suitable image is chosen. If this observation was not true, no one would ever use matte media.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Laminarman]

I appreciate your help Mark.  Thank you.  I'm working with QTR now to try to see if it's going to help me.  I don't see an Entrada "curve" or profile so in bed I'll read the instructions and help sheets I've downloaded.