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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 87593 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2320 on: August 25, 2020, 03:33:35 pm »

This is an interesting graphic.    It shows the spread based on 0%, 20%, 40%, and 60% vaccination rate based on a vaccine with 70% effectiveness. Let the process run a few times as the results vary some. There are also active charts showing difference when masks and distancing variables are added.  The experts think that herd immunity kicks in around 60-65%.  Natural immunity could work but the jury is still out as to how effective.  Plus they're concerned with the other effects from getting Covid including death of course. 

My thinking is if areas have higher rates already, like NYC which some estimated at 20%, you could reach herd immunity quicker with less vaccination than areas with lower natural Covid rates requiring more vaccinations.
https://graphics.reuters.com/HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS/HERD%20IMMUNITY%20(EXPLAINER)/gjnvwayydvw/

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2321 on: August 25, 2020, 04:25:17 pm »

I also find it shortsighted by some to only focus on the lower casualty numbers with lower age, since children can be the ones that infect their surroundings (teachers, parents, grandparents, other family and neighbors). And also, some children do get very ill, and may (unlike most influenza cases) suffer the consequences for life.
There is a family of five in our area.  The two parents got COVID-19 first, both cases were mild and not needing hospitalization.  The two boys 13 & 16 were both hospitalized and put on ECMO machines as their blood oxygen levels were dropping rapidly.  the were hospitalized for a month and one of them lost a lot of weight and is now doing PT to get his strength back.  The daughter was not sick.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2322 on: August 25, 2020, 04:29:07 pm »

That's true.  However, my point is that the disease has to go through the community, slow or fast, to reach a stabilization point. The quicker it goes through, the quicker that point is reached and society can get back to some normalcy.
If you know what the stabilization point us, please let me know.  I've seen papers that give a range of 25-75% of the population needing to be infected before there is general immunity.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2323 on: August 25, 2020, 04:36:23 pm »

I wrote the following in my newsletter on 1) herd immunity and 2) vaccines. 

There have been numerous models that attempt to come up with a number and I have reported on most of them.  Percentage of infected needed to achieve herd immunity range from 20 to just over 70%.  Part of New York City are thought to have achieved this if the value is at the lower end of the range.  However, this may not be the case as it only applies to the stochastic case of a closed system.  If Queens can be isolated from the outside, herd immunity may exist.  However, if the value for herd immunity is 30%, then 70% are still naïve and subject to infection.  Travel in and out of Queens will subject those people to potential infection.  One simple example as to how this happens are the sporadic outbreaks of measles in the US because of insufficient vaccine compliance.  According to CDC, 91.5% of children receive MMR vaccination and yet outbreaks still occur.  Does this mean that herd immunity for this disease is greater than 91% (quite a high number!)?  No, it just means that there are variables that we still don’t fully understand. As the famous literary and film quote goes, “it’s complicated!”

Apparently President Trump’s chief of staff, Mark Meadows, does not know how clinical trials work.  Subjects need to be enrolled, data needs to be gathered, and case reports need to be analyzed and quantified.  Unless Mr. Meadows knows of some magic way to find a shortcut, the time to do the trial and analysis is easy to quantify.  Let’s look at the Pfizer m-RNA vaccine.  This past Friday, Pfizer said they had enrolled 11,000 of the 30,000 patients needed.  Two injections are required, the second one is 21 days from the initial shot.  The vaccine is being tested globally, currently enrolling in the US, Brazil, and Argentina with additional enrollment in Germany, Turkey, and South Africa.  Assuming enrollment is completed early September, the two-shot vaccination regimen will be completed by the end of that month at the latest.  I do not know what the evaluation time frame to judge how protective the vaccine is.  According to the trial description, confirmed COVID-19 cases are measured beginning seven days after the second vaccination.  Pfizer say the expected end date for the trial is November 11.  This means the last enrolled patient would be observed for about six weeks If I have done my math correctly.   The linked press release states Pfizer may be in a position to seek regulatory review as early as this October and perhaps they will have compelling but incomplete data if that is the goal.  This assumes everything goes right with the trial.  One further note, Pfizer indicate 100 million doses would be ready by the end of the year.  With a two-dose regimen, this would be enough to immunize 50m.  We do not know whether all of these 50m would be available to the US.

Personally, I am not a fan of the gene based vaccines as I do not think they will provide enough immunity for those of us over 65.  Those of you in this category who received the new shingles vaccine know first hand what it's like to get a super-potent vaccine.  It has a lot of antigen and a new adjuvant that jack the immune system into producing a strong response.  There is only one near term vaccine that fits this bill and that is the one made by Novavax.  Sanofi/GSK are working on one but I don't know the time frame.  GSK make the shingles vaccine and have developed the adjuvant  as well.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2324 on: August 25, 2020, 05:10:14 pm »

There is a family of five in our area.  The two parents got COVID-19 first, both cases were mild and not needing hospitalization.  The two boys 13 & 16 were both hospitalized and put on ECMO machines as their blood oxygen levels were dropping rapidly.  the were hospitalized for a month and one of them lost a lot of weight and is now doing PT to get his strength back.  The daughter was not sick.
What's your point? Your example is anecdotal.  Sure, it's terrible when children get sick and God forbid die.  But there are approximately as many annual deaths for children from seasonal Flu as there are from Covid 19. 

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2325 on: August 25, 2020, 05:17:54 pm »

I wrote the following in my newsletter on 1) herd immunity and 2) vaccines. 

There have been numerous models that attempt to come up with a number and I have reported on most of them.  Percentage of infected needed to achieve herd immunity range from 20 to just over 70%.  Part of New York City are thought to have achieved this if the value is at the lower end of the range.  However, this may not be the case as it only applies to the stochastic case of a closed system.  If Queens can be isolated from the outside, herd immunity may exist.  However, if the value for herd immunity is 30%, then 70% are still naïve and subject to infection.  Travel in and out of Queens will subject those people to potential infection.  One simple example as to how this happens are the sporadic outbreaks of measles in the US because of insufficient vaccine compliance.  According to CDC, 91.5% of children receive MMR vaccination and yet outbreaks still occur.  Does this mean that herd immunity for this disease is greater than 91% (quite a high number!)?  No, it just means that there are variables that we still don’t fully understand. As the famous literary and film quote goes, “it’s complicated!”

Apparently President Trump’s chief of staff, Mark Meadows, does not know how clinical trials work. Subjects need to be enrolled, data needs to be gathered, and case reports need to be analyzed and quantified.  Unless Mr. Meadows knows of some magic way to find a shortcut, the time to do the trial and analysis is easy to quantify.  Let’s look at the Pfizer m-RNA vaccine.  This past Friday, Pfizer said they had enrolled 11,000 of the 30,000 patients needed.  Two injections are required, the second one is 21 days from the initial shot.  The vaccine is being tested globally, currently enrolling in the US, Brazil, and Argentina with additional enrollment in Germany, Turkey, and South Africa.  Assuming enrollment is completed early September, the two-shot vaccination regimen will be completed by the end of that month at the latest.  I do not know what the evaluation time frame to judge how protective the vaccine is.  According to the trial description, confirmed COVID-19 cases are measured beginning seven days after the second vaccination.  Pfizer say the expected end date for the trial is November 11.  This means the last enrolled patient would be observed for about six weeks If I have done my math correctly.   The linked press release states Pfizer may be in a position to seek regulatory review as early as this October and perhaps they will have compelling but incomplete data if that is the goal.  This assumes everything goes right with the trial.  One further note, Pfizer indicate 100 million doses would be ready by the end of the year.  With a two-dose regimen, this would be enough to immunize 50m.  We do not know whether all of these 50m would be available to the US.

Personally, I am not a fan of the gene based vaccines as I do not think they will provide enough immunity for those of us over 65.  Those of you in this category who received the new shingles vaccine know first hand what it's like to get a super-potent vaccine.  It has a lot of antigen and a new adjuvant that jack the immune system into producing a strong response.  There is only one near term vaccine that fits this bill and that is the one made by Novavax.  Sanofi/GSK are working on one but I don't know the time frame.  GSK make the shingles vaccine and have developed the adjuvant  as well.
I was going to respond.  But politics isn't allowed in this thread.  Your comment about the president's advisor is a political insult of Trump's leadership ability regarding the virus. 

Chris Kern

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2326 on: August 25, 2020, 05:24:46 pm »

I was going to respond.  But politics isn't allowed in this thread.  Your comment about the president's advisor is a political insult of Trump's leadership ability regarding the virus.

That is preposterous response to a factual and informative post.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2327 on: August 25, 2020, 05:29:56 pm »

I was going to respond.  But politics isn't allowed in this thread.  Your comment about the president's advisor is a political insult of Trump's leadership ability regarding the virus.
That's enough for me.  If anyone wants answers they can go to my COVID-19 website:  https://agoldhammer.com/covid_19/  or send me a private message through this website or you can send me an email through mine.  I had quite enough of foolish posts and figure that if people don't want to read about factual information they can simmer in their on confirmational biases.

Fairwell and good night!  Signing off in favor of more productive activities.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2328 on: August 25, 2020, 05:32:33 pm »

That is preposterous response to a factual and informative post.
His comments were a political put down of the president.  It didn't belong there with other factual information.  I didn't set the rules.

Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2329 on: August 25, 2020, 05:54:51 pm »

I was going to respond.  But politics isn't allowed in this thread.  Your comment about the president's advisor is a political insult of Trump's leadership ability regarding the virus. 

So now we have a ‘political insult’ as opposed to a simple insult ?
Actually, neither.

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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2330 on: August 25, 2020, 05:57:08 pm »

What's your point? Your example is anecdotal.  Sure, it's terrible when children get sick and God forbid die.  But there are approximately as many annual deaths for children from seasonal Flu as there are from Covid 19.

It's not anecdotal, schools and universities show now higher number of C19 infections.
 
Quote
More U.S. colleges were grappling with high numbers of students testing positive for the coronavirus just days into the start of the fall semester after some universities rolled back their campus reopening plans in recent weeks.

“USC Student Health has received an alarming increase in the number of COVID-19 cases in students in the University Park Campus community,” the university said in a statement, adding that all cases were related to students in “off-campus living environments.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/more-u-s-colleges-see-spike-in-covid-19-cases-after-classes-resume-idUSKBN25L2GG
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kers

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2331 on: August 25, 2020, 05:58:43 pm »

What's your point? Your example is anecdotal.  Sure, it's terrible when children get sick and God forbid die.  But there are approximately as many annual deaths for children from seasonal Flu as there are from Covid 19.
Tell me Alan, why do you stay at home?
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Pieter Kers
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2332 on: August 25, 2020, 06:42:06 pm »

It's not anecdotal, schools and universities show now higher number of C19 infections.
 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/more-u-s-colleges-see-spike-in-covid-19-cases-after-classes-resume-idUSKBN25L2GG
His post was anecdotal.  Sure.  Some children get very sick from Covid. So what?  Most don't.  He gave no statistics to advance the anecdote to  general scientific fact.  He's tugging on our emotions rather than drawing on scientific facts.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2333 on: August 25, 2020, 06:51:33 pm »

So now we have a ‘political insult’ as opposed to a simple insult ?
Actually, neither.


His statement: "Unless Mr. Meadows knows of some magic way to find a shortcut..." is political innuendo.  Using the phrase including "magic" regarding his thinking was a  put down of the president's Chief of Staff and by extension the president himself.  It doesn't belong in a scientific treatise nor in a thread devoted to NO POLITICS.  Treatment regarding this matter should be equally applied to all posters.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2334 on: August 25, 2020, 10:05:20 pm »

This thread is losing its grip, but for the benefit of those still looking for content about Covid, this podcast is highly informative, https://samharris.org/podcasts/214-august-13-2020/.

Intro paragrpah from that page "In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Siddhartha Mukherjee about our ongoing failure to adequately respond to the Covid-19 pandemic. They discuss the significance of asymptomatic spread, the lack of Chinese cooperation, the failures of testing, travel restrictions, the missteps of the FDA and the CDC, controversy around masks, the lack of coordination among the states, conspiracy thinking about mortality statistics, the political contamination of public health information, electronic medical records, preparing for the next pandemic, the immunology of Covid-19, the long term consequences of the disease, concerns about a vaccine, the coming prospect of school openings, and other topics."
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John Camp

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2335 on: August 25, 2020, 11:54:44 pm »

That's enough for me.  If anyone wants answers they can go to my COVID-19 website:  https://agoldhammer.com/covid_19/  or send me a private message through this website or you can send me an email through mine.  I had quite enough of foolish posts and figure that if people don't want to read about factual information they can simmer in their on confirmational biases.

Fairwell and good night!  Signing off in favor of more productive activities.

Alan Goldhammer (assuming you're still here) instead of depriving us of valuable information, why don't you just block Alan Klein? You really don't have to look at his posts, you know. I've found that it's quite the useful tool.
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KLaban

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2336 on: August 26, 2020, 04:48:15 am »

Poor and inadequate measures for the containment of Covid-19 lead to a devastating impact on health and the economy.

Impact to health and economy

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2337 on: August 26, 2020, 07:54:47 am »

Alan Goldhammer (assuming you're still here) instead of depriving us of valuable information, why don't you just block Alan Klein? You really don't have to look at his posts, you know. I've found that it's quite the useful tool.
That's the solution the left always proposes. Silence those who don't agree with your point of view. 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2338 on: August 26, 2020, 08:02:00 am »

That's the solution the left always proposes. Silence those who don't agree with your point of view.

Silencing? John didn't suggest silencing, he suggested not listening. You're confused.
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kers

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2339 on: August 26, 2020, 08:04:52 am »

That's the solution the left always proposes. Silence those who don't agree with your point of view.

Alan, have you noticed that ; The way you and others describe  'the left' as a solid block of opinions; the 'right' is never addressed as such?
Now lets get back on topic.
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