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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 87533 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2260 on: August 22, 2020, 02:36:32 pm »

Although I've repeated it 1000 times, I've been wearing masks since this thing started.  In fact, I bought KN-95 masks direct from China and paid extra for them including expedited shipping.   I bought surgical masks directly from them as well.

I've decided to try a cotton mask as they appear to have improved the design and "experts" claim they're almost as good.  Maybe someone else can recommend a type of filter that's best.
Cotton masks if they fit snugly is all you need is you are just doing routine stuff and not going into areas that are packed tightly with people.  There have been several technical papers that I've referenced in my newsletter that show this.   https://agoldhammer.com/covid_19/
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2261 on: August 22, 2020, 03:23:39 pm »

Science does not care about your opinion or what you believe. That is the whole point of science.
Well, then.  Everything must be settled.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2262 on: August 22, 2020, 03:26:17 pm »

Well, then.  Everything must be settled.

Please stop trolling this thread.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2263 on: August 22, 2020, 03:29:15 pm »

...Schools in some very conservative states opened and then quickly closed when infections picked up.
If you spent some time reading you might be better informed.  You can always read back issues of my daily newsletter and get the unvarnished truth:  https://agoldhammer.com/covid_19/   You would quickly see that I have never been one to call for total school shutdowns.
I don't have time to read your blog. Could you summarize how schools can partially open?  It seems to be a big issue now.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2264 on: August 22, 2020, 03:31:14 pm »

Please stop trolling this thread.
Robert.  You seem to have a problem with everything I say.  Maybe you ought to stop reading my posts.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2265 on: August 22, 2020, 03:48:57 pm »

Robert.  You seem to have a problem with everything I say.  Maybe you ought to stop reading my posts.

Why don't you simply start a new thread on which you can discuss all the things that experts get wrong and leave this thread to its original purpose.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2266 on: August 22, 2020, 04:06:44 pm »

Why don't you simply start a new thread on which you can discuss all the things that experts get wrong and leave this thread to its original purpose.
I was responding ironically to point up the silliness in another's point that scientists have gotten everything right and that I should just accept them.  That my viewpoint and opinion don't count. That's pretty insulting telling someone they're a dummy, that only scientists can think and make conclusions.  I doubt if you believe that either.  Second, everyone here is giving their opinion.  Without them there would be no thread.  You just want to to shut up with opinion that differs from yours or the scientists whose opinions you agree with.   Sorry.  But, that won't happen. I expect people to respect my opinions as well.  It's not trolling.  You, of course, can ignore them if you wish.

Alan Goldhammer

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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2268 on: August 22, 2020, 06:23:16 pm »

https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/
Thanks.  I read through some of the requirements and stopped when they became overloaded.  They are so onerous, I don't see how any school system could get anywhere near meeting these requirements.  Even before they get to school, the bus requirements can't be met.  My comments are in bold.

Buses 
Encourage alternative modes of transportation for students who have other safe options, including walking or biking. Before the bus driver starts their route, how do they know who's going with them or not and who they're picking up? Who decides who has to take other transportation?
Ideally, for students riding the bus, symptom screening would be performed prior to them being dropped off at the bus stop. WHo checks the kids before they get on the bius?  How? Where?
Having bus drivers or monitors perform these screenings is problematic, as they may face a situation in which a student screens positive yet the parent has left, and the driver would be faced with leaving the student alone or allowing the student on the bus. What do the bus driver's do?
Assigned seating; if possible, assign seats by cohort (same students sit together each day). What happens when the bus reaches it maximum load about half the usual kids?  Does the driver go home?  What are the rest of the kids who have not been picked up suppose to do?
Tape marks showing students where to sit. Buses onormally pick up full loads. What happens to the other half of kids?
Face coverings should be worn at all times, particularly if 6 feet distance cannot be maintained. Is the bus drivers suppose to control the kids and drive too? I can imagine what's going to happen the first time a driver is distracted and runs his bus into a telephone pole and kills three kids. 
Drivers should be a minimum of 6 feet from students; driver must wear face covering; consider physical barrier for driver (eg, plexiglass).
Minimize number of people on the bus at one time within reason. See above question about half loads.
Consider altering start and end times at different grades to allow fewer students on the bus at a time. How does this happen?
Adults who do not need to be on the bus should not be on the bus.
Have windows open if weather allows.
Ensure adequate cleaning of buses between uses.

The logistics seem impossible.  The  rules once the kids get to school are similarly draconian.  How do you run half classes? I see why teachers are complaining that it's an impossible task they're being asked to perform. MAybe the solution is the internet from home.  I don't know. Is anyone sending their kids to school?  How are they handling it?  Maybe there are other more practical solutions.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2269 on: August 22, 2020, 06:34:13 pm »

The problem I see with the school's recommendations are that only medical results are taken into consideration.  Like the problem with best practices for people in general, no one is thinking about the practical limitations on how societies work.  They did the same thing with shutting down the economy.  Only medical outcomes are considered.  They're ignoring how school systems and economies really work.  The solutions in both cases aren't practical. Just like the economies are failing, so will the schools.

JoeKitchen

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2270 on: August 22, 2020, 06:45:00 pm »

Europe reopened their schools month ago and all evidence shows they have not become a vector for transmission.  There is no reason to keep schools closed here anymore. 

Not to mention, child abuse is almost certainly going up, and schools are the number one source, by far, of recognizing and reporting.  Mental health issues are also going up due to this lockdown along with immune systems not getting the required exposure to germs to fully develop. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2271 on: August 22, 2020, 06:51:46 pm »

Europe reopened their schools month ago and all evidence shows they have not become a vector for transmission.  There is no reason to keep schools closed here anymore. 

Not to mention, child abuse is almost certainly going up, and schools are the number one source, by far, of recognizing and reporting.  Mental health issues are also going up due to this lockdown along with immune systems not getting the required exposure to germs to fully develop. 
So why are we listening to the American Society of Pediatrics or the CDC? We should be looking at other nations who are getting real world results.

HSakols

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2272 on: August 22, 2020, 07:35:34 pm »

I'm sure glad Joe knows.  Thanks Joe.  I feel better. 
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Chris Kern

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2273 on: August 22, 2020, 07:39:08 pm »

Robert.  You seem to have a problem with everything I say.  Maybe you ought to stop reading my posts.

Why don't you simply start a new thread on which you can discuss all the things that experts get wrong and leave this thread to its original purpose.

Actually, he did: that was the crazytalk ("PLAYPEN") thread that he initiated and Jeremy Roussak eventually shut down after it wandered off-topic and became too crazy.

At the time it was started, I thought the idea behind that thread was that forum participants could post idiotic theories regarding the pandemic with impunity and insult each other as much as they wanted (well, perhaps with some minimal requirement for civility) without moderator intervention.

Unfortunately, it didn't work.  The made-up "facts," unsubstantiated rumors, and infantile pissing matches continued to pop up in this and other threads that are ostensibly intended for intelligent discussion, even while the PLAYPEN still remained open.  At the moment, there is no other place to post them.

I suppose moderation can constrain these excesses to some extent, but I think those who want to debate politically-sensitive topics rationally need to stop responding to posts that appear to be solely designed to provoke a response.

Then, if and when Jeremy unlocks the PLAYPEN, perhaps there will be a chance of keeping the crazytalk confined within its perimeter.

Peter McLennan

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2274 on: August 22, 2020, 07:54:46 pm »

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« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 08:17:42 pm by Peter McLennan »
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2275 on: August 22, 2020, 08:19:36 pm »

Freely translated: "I can't be bothered to read your informed documentation, I'm too busy posting my own private truths on the Internet. Please do my due diligence for me."
Peter, Alan G's blog has hundred of reports none of them labelled for easy reference. You would have to go through thousands of pages of arcane medical information to try to find details to questions I asked about kids and schools. It would take days to go through his voluminous blogs and reports.  In fact, when he answered my request, he gave me a link to the American Academy of Pediatrics not his blog.  Why do you always feel it's necessary to attack me, call me a troll and other insulting comments?

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2276 on: August 22, 2020, 08:22:44 pm »

Actually, he did: that was the crazytalk ("PLAYPEN") thread that he initiated and Jeremy Roussak eventually shut down after it wandered off-topic and became too crazy.

At the time it was started, I thought the idea behind that thread was that forum participants could post idiotic theories regarding the pandemic with impunity and insult each other as much as they wanted (well, perhaps with some minimal requirement for civility) without moderator intervention.

Unfortunately, it didn't work.  The made-up "facts," unsubstantiated rumors, and infantile pissing matches continued to pop up in this and other threads that are ostensibly intended for intelligent discussion, even while the PLAYPEN still remained open.  At the moment, there is no other place to post them.

I suppose moderation can constrain these excesses to some extent, but I think those who want to debate politically-sensitive topics rationally need to stop responding to posts that appear to be solely designed to provoke a response.

Then, if and when Jeremy unlocks the PLAYPEN, perhaps there will be a chance of keeping the crazytalk confined within its perimeter.
Chris, This thread says no politics.  It doesn't say your can't object to medical opinions and raise questions as to what effect medical advice have on school operation or the economy.  Calling it crazytalk is just a way of silencing opposing viewpoints. No thread in LuLA requires that.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2277 on: August 22, 2020, 08:49:57 pm »

Another casualty of the virus is forest fire fighting in California.  From the NY Times:

"Fewer inmate firefighters are available after being freed because of the coronavirus pandemic, raising questions over whether California should use prison labor at all."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/22/us/california-wildfires.html#link-cf44fb5
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/22/us/california-wildfires.html

Peter McLennan

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2278 on: August 22, 2020, 09:08:37 pm »

Why do you always feel it's necessary to attack me, call me a troll and other insulting comments?

I don't always.  I only do when you say dumb stuff.
I don't believe I've ever called you a troll.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2279 on: August 22, 2020, 09:12:16 pm »

I don't always.  I only do when you say dumb stuff.
I don't believe I've ever called you a troll.
Well, someone did.  Sorry I accused you.  I've got my hands filled with you guys.  :)
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