COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS

[LesPalenik]

There's also the belief that more people are dying of these other diseases even though they are not infected with Covid.

Numbers of Non-COVID-19 Deaths Up During Pandemic
"But a third possibility, the one we're quite concerned about, is indirect mortality -- deaths caused by the response to the pandemic," he said. "People who never had the virus may have died from other causes because of the spillover effects of the pandemic, such as delayed medical care, economic hardship or emotional distress."
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-07-01/numbers-of-non-covid-19-deaths-up-during-pandemic

Number of indirect deaths in these times is severely underestimated. As mentioned, people get stressed, if their hip or knee surgeries were postponed, they may fall and suffer injuries, and many don't eat and exercise properly which can lead to other problems. Many patients were dependent also on their physiotherapists, chiropractors and other health specialists who were closed for almost 4 months.

[Chris Kern]

That comment reminds me of a trip I took some years ago to the Getty museum in LA, in the course of which the guide described John Paul Getty as "a successful businessman": it's the understatement of the decade.

I hope you also had an opportunity to see the Getty Villa in Pacific Palisades, a modern replica of a first-century Roman villa commissioned by Getty in the 1970s.  You go more for the architecture than for the collection of ancient art, which, though expertly curated (money being no object), is neither as extensive nor as exceptional as that on display at a number of major museums in the U.K., continental Europe, or even elsewhere in the United States.

If you missed it on that earlier visit, do include it on your agenda for your next trip to California.  It should be safe to travel there again in ... ahh ... say ... 2023.

[faberryman]

An eye popping 10,109 new cases in Florida today. Fortunately only 68 deaths. The good news is apparently they are still testing.

[kers]

Some statisitics seem a bit off;

Russia, Saoudi Arabia, Qatar, Chili, Pakistan  to name a few:
All have large amounts of infections but only a small percentage dies when compared with other countries.
What could be the reason?

[hogloff]

Some statisitics seem a bit off;

Russia, Saoudi Arabia, Qatar, Chili, Pakistan  to name a few:
All have large amounts of infections but only a small percentage dies when compared with other countries.
What could be the reason?

Maybe protecting the elderly where the majority of deaths occur.

[Ray]

It's terrible.  You walk around in fear of going out especially since my wife and I are older and have comorbidities. I've suggested we rent a cabin someplace where there won;t be people but we can get away.  My wife refuses until this is "over".  We might be dead before this is over.   

I sympathize with your predicament. My advice would be to remain calm. Do whatever is recommended to avoid contact with the virus, but don't worry about it. Worrying solves nothing, and can make the situation worse because it might interfere with your clear thinking and result in your making mistakes.

Takes this opportunity to practice Buddhist meditation. You have all the time in the world to sit down doing nothing. 

[BobShaw]

An eye popping 10,109 new cases in Florida today. Fortunately only 68 deaths. The good news is apparently they are still testing.

That is more cases than we have in the whole of Australia ever. Similar population. Just mind boggling.

[LesPalenik]

An eye popping 10,109 new cases in Florida today. Fortunately only 68 deaths. The good news is apparently they are still testing.

Is the infection explosion due to the recent protest demonstrations, beach parties, or AC's recirculating compromised air in public buildings?

[Alan Klein]

That is more cases than we have in the whole of Australia ever. Similar population. Just mind boggling.

Bob, How are Australians meeting socially, publically and at work that are different than Floridians?

[Robert Roaldi]

Is the infection explosion due to the recent protest demonstrations, beach parties, or AC's recirculating compromised air in public buildings?

Probably all of the above and more reasons besides. It appears as if people convinced themselves it was all over and got careless in many ways.

[Alan Klein]

Probably all of the above and more reasons besides. It appears as if people convinced themselves it was all over and got careless in many ways.

What if it turns out that being "careless" allows the virus to "rage" through the community faster and get it over with sooner? Otherwise, you forestall the damage as everyone stays locked up. m Then when you come out again two months later, it starts spreading again.   Sure the statistics look worse initially. But if the end results are comparably the same, you've only hurt the economy worse by delaying. Pay now or pay more later.

Additionally, and unfortunately, this is election season in America.  So both sides are making arguments and instituting policies that are politically measured.  The poor public, sick, confused, and poorer, just throw up their hands and say screw it.  Sometimes doing something, anything, is better than doing nothing.  At least for many of them.

[hogloff]

What if it turns out that being "careless" allows the virus to "rage" through the community faster and get it over with sooner? Otherwise, you forestall the damage as everyone stays locked up. m Then when you come out again two months later, it starts spreading again.   Sure the statistics look worse initially. But if the end results are comparably the same, you've only hurt the economy worse by delaying. Pay now or pay more later.

Additionally, and unfortunately, this is election season in America.  So both sides are making arguments and instituting policies that are politically measured.  The poor public, sick, confused, and poorer, just throw up their hands and say screw it.  Sometimes doing something, anything, is better than doing nothing.  At least for many of them.

Sweden has been trying this. Not only are their death rates much higher than their neighbours...but their economy is also in the hole.

If you believe what you say...why are you still hiding in your home. Didn't Covid ravage through your area already...shouldn't you be OK to return to your normal living?

[jeremyrh]

What if it turns out that being "careless" allows the virus to "rage" through the community faster and get it over with sooner? Otherwise, you forestall the damage as everyone stays locked up. m Then when you come out again two months later, it starts spreading again.   Sure the statistics look worse initially. But if the end results are comparably the same, you've only hurt the economy worse by delaying. Pay now or pay more later.

Many assumptions there - first one being that getting it makes you immune to getting it again. Second is that hospitals can cope with "raging" virus without getting completely overwhelmed and not giving care to people they could otherwise have saved. Third is that society can cope with dead people being wheeled out at rates ten times what they are today. Fourth that the US would not be economically impacted by becoming the world's plague ship.

[Alan Klein]

Sweden has been trying this. Not only are their death rates much higher than their neighbours...but their economy is also in the hole.

If you believe what you say...why are you still hiding in your home. Didn't Covid ravage through your area already...shouldn't you be OK to return to your normal living?

If younger people feel it's in their interest to get out and work, that's their business.  Everyone should make personal decisions accordingly. We're a free people.

I'm 75 so I'm more susceptible to getting it and dying from it.  So I'm cautious.  If may turn out that the best approach is for younger people to move ahead with activity while protecting older people.  It doesn't have to be an all or nothing approach.  That way, we can start to repair the economy while generally protecting the most vulnerable.  That seems to be a reasonable approach.  Look, no one knows exactly what the best method is. This is all new to us for both leaders and the general public.  We're learning as we go along.  Demanding you have the "truth" is just posturing.  A little humility all around would be helpful.

[jeremyrh]

If younger people feel it's in their interest to get out and work, that's their business. 

Clearly not, since doing so impacts the health of others.

[hogloff]

Clearly not, since doing so impacts the health of others.

It also impacts the young. Just watched a video of the chaos in Texas and the doctors interviews indicated more young in ICU with many not making it. Let's also not forget even if Covid does not kill you, it still can do major damage to your lungs that will affect your quality of life going forward and might shorten your life down the road.

Young are not immune.

[Alan Klein]

It also impacts the young. Just watched a video of the chaos in Texas and the doctors interviews indicated more young in ICU with many not making it. Let's also not forget even if Covid does not kill you, it still can do major damage to your lungs that will affect your quality of life going forward and might shorten your life down the road.

Young are not immune.

Didn't you argue that marijuana should be legal even though youngsters who don't need it to survive get addicted and suffer lung and other medical issues and get into auto accidents that kill innocent bystanders?  Yet here where people need to go to work to support their families and help the overall economy, you want to deny them similar individual freedom. 

[hogloff]

Didn't you argue that marijuana should be legal even though youngsters who don't need it to survive get addicted and suffer lung and other medical issues and get into auto accidents that kill innocent bystanders?  Yet here where people need to go to work to support their families and help the overall economy, you want to deny them similar individual freedom.

The fallacy with your view is that marijuana was easily available to anyone who wanted it before it became legal...like it is in the USA. The drive to legalize it was to take it off the streets and into controlled environments...which is a good thing. Very much like providing free drugs and a safe environment to shoot up to help prevent overdoses is also a good thing.

Neither of these programs by the government has increased the use of the drugs.

As far as individual freedom, I'm all for it as long as my freedom is not in danger by you. If you are careless and go out to a bar to have a good time, get Covid and spread it around getting other people sick...that's like driving drunk and getting into an accident killing someone, but you living. That type of freedom should be locked up right next to the drunk drivers.

[Alan Klein]

The fallacy with your view is that marijuana was easily available to anyone who wanted it before it became legal...like it is in the USA. The drive to legalize it was to take it off the streets and into controlled environments...which is a good thing. Very much like providing free drugs and a safe environment to shoot up to help prevent overdoses is also a good thing.

Neither of these programs by the government has increased the use of the drugs.

As far as individual freedom, I'm all for it as long as my freedom is not in danger by you. If you are careless and go out to a bar to have a good time, get Covid and spread it around getting other people sick...that's like driving drunk and getting into an accident killing someone, but you living. That type of freedom should be locked up right next to the drunk drivers.

You're contradicting yourself.  Driving high on pot kills innocent people as does driving drunk.  Also, legal pot has increased the use of other drugs.  You don't have your statistics right.  But the main point you ignored is that while working will adding risk due to Covid, at least has more important societal benefits.  You don't put any value on how the economy helps people and families.

[jeremyrh]

You're contradicting yourself.  Driving high on pot kills innocent people as does driving drunk.  Also, legal pot has increased the use of other drugs.  You don't have your statistics right.  But the main point you ignored is that while working will adding risk due to Covid, at least has more important societal benefits.  You don't put any value on how the economy helps people and families.

No, you're wrong. According to your "logic" it's OK for a person to drive drunk cos its their decision as a "free" person. Driving drunk is illegal as, I imagine, it would be to drive uner the influence of marijuana. Yet you claim it should be legal for a person to spread a deadly disease if they feel like it? Bizarre.