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Author Topic: In-camera RAW histograms  (Read 3350 times)

digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2020, 01:27:23 pm »

At at 10:02:52 am » I posted no less than 8 articles covering exposing for raw data. At at 10:44:48 am » Franz replies he has to wonder about the accuracy the process described by myself and others can work. He wonders without reading or testing any of the data provided 43 minutes previously. I think this illustrates his posting agenda which isn’t to ask a question and study the answers or end up with an answer to help him but rather to ask a question and then nearly immediately push back on the answers that don't suite his predetermined desires, factual or otherwise. It is why I don't believe anyone else here should take him too seriously assuming they are new to this agenda of posting (I'm not, this is really old news). If I'm coming off as pissy towards Franz, it is simply due to years of witnessing this kind of posting agenda while attempting to provide useful data points for him to ignore but not necessarily other's dragged into his posting agenda.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 02:02:51 pm by digitaldog »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2020, 02:04:57 pm »

As far as I know, there are no cameras available with in-camera RAW histograms. So why is that? How difficult could it be to write the code? After all, code has been created for demosaicing the RAW data and creating jpeg histograms. Why only jpeg? Isn't RAW way more important for the more serious photographer? How fast asleep are the camera manufacturers? I don't get it; do you?

Phase One IQ4 has a raw histogram (in addition to the standard histogram, a zone-system based heat map, customizable "blinkies", raw-clipping blinkies, and the view on screen).

It's the only still-camera system I'm aware of that really gives an informed photographer the information they need (in the field, at the time of capture, no other hardware required) to properly expose a digital image, provided the photographer wants to ETTR.

digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2020, 02:07:24 pm »

Phase One IQ4 has a raw histogram (in addition to the standard histogram, a zone-system based heat map, customizable "blinkies", raw-clipping blinkies, and the view on screen).
Hopefully such facts will make Franz happy. But I'm not holding by breath on that....  ;D
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It's the only still-camera system I'm aware of that really gives an informed photographer the information they need (in the field, at the time of capture, no other hardware required) to properly expose a digital image, provided the photographer wants to ETTR.
Well it's excellent you provide this feature but it's kind of a stretch to suggest (if you're just suggesting) that to properly exposure a digital image, you MUST have such a Histogram.
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faberryman

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2020, 03:05:31 pm »

Hopefully such facts will make Franz happy. But I'm not holding by breath on that....  ;D Well it's excellent you provide this feature but it's kind of a stretch to suggest (if you're just suggesting) that to properly exposure a digital image, you MUST have such a Histogram.
Should I be worried that my cameras don't have RAW histograms? What I have seems to work pretty well.
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digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2020, 03:08:41 pm »

Should I be worried that my cameras don't have RAW histograms? What I have seems to work pretty well.
You should be super worried if you subscribe to FUD and the concept that you have to have a raw Histogram to ideally expose your data. So IOW, no, you have nothing to worry about if you've taken the time the OP clearly hasn't; to test your captures and exposure with a fine and useful product like RawDigger. Or you have experience exposing media that's far less forgiving, transparency film, again a job done without any need for any kind of Histogram.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2020, 03:58:48 pm »

Andrew, your quote of my post truncated out the ending.

The full quote is "It's the only still-camera system I'm aware of that really gives an informed photographer the information they need (in the field, at the time of capture, no other hardware required) to properly expose a digital image, provided the photographer wants to ETTR."

A raw histogram is not necessary to making a great image.
A precise and fine-tuned ETTR exposure is not necessary to making a great image.

However, if you want to carefully (read: precisely) ETTR (without having to tether) then the Phase One IQ4 is the only camera that provides you the tools to do so in-camera. And it does so simply and elegantly.

This is especially true given that the Phase One IQ4 toolset offers a Raw Clipping indicator that only indicates area where two raw channels are past saturation, given that modern raw processors like Capture One can do a darn good job rendering pleasantly in areas of an image that have one (but only one) color channel blown.

That seemed salient to the thread that starts with (paraphrasing) "why does no camera offer raw histograms?"
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 04:03:54 pm by Doug Peterson »
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digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2020, 04:05:33 pm »

I absolutely was not attributing your post as FUD and apologize if you thought that comment was directed at you rather than someone else posting here. As I said, I applaud your company for providing this functionality in your camera. I believe I’ve been quite clear in my opinion that a raw histogram or any Histogram is not necessary for optimal exposure. But nonetheless having such functionality for some is useful and again I applaud your company for providing it
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2020, 04:08:23 pm »

Yes, you have to wonder because: If you have only imagined it, you haven't experienced it. Seems from your reply, you've never tried it. Nor it appears have ever shot transparency film ideally if at all (still waiting on proof of serious photography from you too). Don't wonder, get to work and learn how to expose your raw captures, assuming you shoot in raw. You state that as factual after asking us about how to produce a raw Histogram in the camera so I have to believe, you're simply making more assumptions and speculations without any actual experience.
Do you really think that for the last nearly 200 years, photographers have been so unable to optimally expose any media, as it appears you have, without a raw Histogram? We haven't.  ;)
You've got a slew of peer reviewed articles to read about exposing for raw. Get to work, read em, do some actual testing (work), learn how to expose. "We" can't do any more such work for you, the rest is up to you alone!
That question was rhetorical; the process you describe has its limitations and is only reasonably accurate over a limited range of shooting conditions. A simple exercise will show this: use an infrared filter and see the process fall apart. Of course you could use the same process to find exposure correlation for using infrared filters, or other shooting conditions. An in-camera RAW RGB histogram on the other hand will work for any shooting condition right at the time of capture.
The process you describe is the best approach if no in-camera RAW RGB histogram is available, but becomes an unnecessary pain in the neck if such histogram is available in-camera. The $52,000 Phase One camera is a bit out of my - and I guess many other people's - range.

By the way, don't worry about my level of experience. I bought my first (film) camera when I was in middle school in 1958 with money earned from my paper delivery job. Done B/W and color film, B/W chemical darkroom printing, color slides, digital RAW shooting and digital printing.
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digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2020, 04:19:17 pm »

That question was rhetorical...
As we so consistently see from you.
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the process you describe has its limitations and is only reasonably accurate over a limited range of shooting conditions.
That's an opinion based on assumptions and a lack of experience. I've pointed out that photographers for a very, very long time have been successful in optimally exposing all nature of media without a Histogram. I fully appreciate you don't have such experience.
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The process you describe is the best approach if no in-camera RAW RGB histogram is available
Clearly you've not thought about how many years photographers have been making images with optimal exposures without any Histogram, raw or otherwise. Some here, unlike you, doing so on film which is far less forgiving than digital and getting paid to do so.
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The $52,000 Phase One camera is a bit out of my - and I guess many other people's - range.
Yes, I understand the limitations of amateurs. Maybe you should stick to snapshots from a phone.
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By the way, don't worry about my level of experience.
I have no such worries, that's another of your assumptions, I believe based on your inability to tell us about your level of experience, provide examples of your 'serious' photography or ability to produce an optimal exposure without some kind of Histogram, your photographic experience is quite limited.
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I bought my first (film) camera when I was in middle school in 1958 with money earned from my paper delivery job.
Buying something and being able to understand how use it, to use it, to show other's what use you've provided is a major difference. Some of us didn't earn money from paper delivery, we earned money as professional photographers. So yeah, you know a lot more about paper delivery than I do.  ;)
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Done B/W and color film, B/W chemical darkroom printing, color slides, digital RAW shooting and digital printing.
Doing perhaps, how well, still highly questionable. One has to wonder if indeed what you say is true, how you find it so difficult to produce an optimally exposed image without a raw Histogram.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2020, 05:01:48 pm »

I believe I’ve been quite clear in my opinion that a raw histogram or any Histogram is not necessary for optimal exposure. But nonetheless having such functionality for some is useful and again I applaud your company for providing it

 :)

Frans Waterlander

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2020, 05:25:36 pm »

One has to wonder if indeed what you say is true, how you find it so difficult to produce an optimally exposed image without a raw Histogram.

I'll just comment on this one to illustrate how incredibly biased and rude you are. Where did I ever say I find it difficult to produce an optimally exposed image without a RAW histogram? Well? That comment totally misses the point as do your other comments.

Now, go on and feel superior and smug. Enjoy.
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digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2020, 05:35:41 pm »

I'll just comment on this one to illustrate how incredibly biased and rude you are.
I frankly don't care.
I'll just comment that you appear to be incredibly confused about exposure.
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Where did I ever say I find it difficult to produce an optimally exposed image without a RAW histogram?
« Reply #39 on: Today at 10:44:48 am »
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2020, 06:25:40 pm »

I frankly don't care.
I'll just comment that you appear to be incredibly confused about exposure. « Reply #39 on: Today at 10:44:48 am »
Have a nice day.
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digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2020, 06:34:28 pm »

 8)
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chez

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2020, 07:52:48 pm »

For those interested in using blinkies or zebra patterns for evaluating or setting exposure, here is a much more mature and informative discussion on a method that works.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1383282

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digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2020, 08:56:00 pm »

For those interested in using blinkies or zebra patterns for evaluating or setting exposure, here is a much more mature and informative discussion on a method that works.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1383282
Wow, despite first sentence (For those looking for an easy way to expose to the right...), as opposed to simply learning how to optimally expose the raw or JPEG or film or anything else, I have to say this reminds me of an old quote from the late great Bruce Fraser:

"You can do all sorts of things that are fiendishly clever, then fall
in love with them because they're fiendishly clever, while
overlooking the fact that they take a great deal more work to obtain
results that stupid people get in half the time. As someone who has
created a lot of fiendishly clever but ultimately useless techniques
in his day, I'd say this sounds like an example."

Bruce Fraser
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chez

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2020, 09:05:52 pm »

Wow, despite first sentence (For those looking for an easy way to expose to the right...), as opposed to simply learning how to optimally expose the raw or JPEG or film or anything else, I have to say this reminds me of an old quote from the late great Bruce Fraser:

"You can do all sorts of things that are fiendishly clever, then fall
in love with them because they're fiendishly clever, while
overlooking the fact that they take a great deal more work to obtain
results that stupid people get in half the time. As someone who has
created a lot of fiendishly clever but ultimately useless techniques
in his day, I'd say this sounds like an example."

Bruce Fraser

Ummm...results speak for themselves. Maybe eat a bit of humble pie and take a look at some of the images some of those folk that discuss this method are capable of producing.

Are you always a jack...azz?
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digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2020, 09:11:19 pm »

Ummm...results speak for themselves. Maybe eat a bit of humble pie and take a look at some of the images some of those folk that discuss this method are capable of producing.
I never stated it doesn't work! Pay attention. I said with a quote, from someone who like some here, actually understood how to expose for any media, that your URL is a great deal more work to obtain than using a process that photographers have used for nearly 200 years of photography. IF you want to fall in love with this process, by all means do so.
I fully understand that some here can't use time honored methods to optimally expose their images without some goodie on the back of a camera. I'd hate to think how you'd deal with exposing without that goodie and again, it's absolutely not necessary to produce optimal exposure.
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chez

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2020, 09:49:19 pm »

I never stated it doesn't work! Pay attention. I said with a quote, from someone who like some here, actually understood how to expose for any media, that your URL is a great deal more work to obtain than using a process that photographers have used for nearly 200 years of photography. IF you want to fall in love with this process, by all means do so.
I fully understand that some here can't use time honored methods to optimally expose their images without some goodie on the back of a camera. I'd hate to think how you'd deal with exposing without that goodie and again, it's absolutely not necessary to produce optimal exposure.

Again I ask please stop being an azz. I've been shooting since the late 60's so I think I know how to expose properly including using spot meters with my 4x5 cameras. With digital, there are more methods at your disposal that work. It's up to everyone to find a method that works for them. With the advanced metering algorithms in today's cameras and the high latitude with exposure in today's sensors along with the many different techniques of using the available features on the cameras...it's never been so easy to nail your exposures.

Dog...don't bother replying as I'm out of this conversation...hate wrestling in the mud.
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digitaldog

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Re: In-camera RAW histograms
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2020, 09:52:01 pm »

Again I ask please stop being an azz.
"What annoys us about others may say more about ourselves than about them."-C.J. Jung
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I've been shooting since the late 60's so I think I know how to expose properly including using spot meters with my 4x5 cameras.
I didn't need blinkies or an LCD to shoot with my Sinar P either. So there you go.
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With digital, there are more methods at your disposal that work
Yes there are. No one has said otherwise.

Are you always a jack...azz?
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Dog...don't bother replying as I'm out of this conversation...hate wrestling in the mud.
Seems you do like wrestling in the mud and calling other's azz. More than once sir.
Don't let the door hit you on your way out.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 09:55:06 pm by digitaldog »
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