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Author Topic: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine  (Read 2556 times)

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2019, 06:48:28 am »

the thing that bugs me the most is the TiO2 issue.  There are easy ways to detect OBAs but if a paper manufacturer has TiO2 in the coating, there's not an easy way to check for this other than to look for problems down the line.  While paper manufacturers do advertise the use of barium sulfate in coating, they certainly do not mention TiO2.  There is a group of Dutch researchers who have developed what looks like a simple test for TiO2 but it's focused more on the presence in paint pigments:  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026265X15003288   Maybe one of our Dutch members can contact them to see if this can be extrapolated to ink jet papers.

Reading that article (fast though) I think the use of TiO2 itself does not have to be that harmful for the longevity of encapsulated pigment particle inks. As long as there is no OBA used in the paper along with the TiO2. The usual OBAs are dyes (stilbene etc) so what is described in the article suits what we know now of the combination of TiO2 and OBAs, thanks to Aardenburg Imaging. In practice I doubt there are any inkjet papers with and without OBAs that do not contain TiO2 as a whitening agent. On the use of BaSo4, it was in a Sihl publication I think that I saw 15% content mentioned for that whitening agent. The only number so far and it did not tell whether it was per weight or volume, a percentage of the total paper structure or just of the inkjet coating. It made me sceptical on the "Baryte" branding of inkjet papers. It still is more an attempt to bring the old baryta analogue paper white and surface/tactical experience to inkjet printing than something else. Anyway the whitening agent industry has a wide variety of products that can contain more than just TiO2/BaSo4 in the mix. Zinc oxides, kaolin, etc are added as well and mixes like that get their brand or industry names we have no clue about.

Whether chemistry could be an answer to detect TiO2, in its different qualities, in the paper structure?  I have to read it better but usually that is a messy route. I do not think the institutes involved will answer my Dutch requests either. There was never an interest in my SpectrumViz project from institutes like that. Sure it hardly can be called a scientific project but I still have to see work done at that scale somewhere else. Most of these conservation research projects aim at curing the problems with aged art/photography works and do not aim at preventing problems that will occur in the next decades. An industry like Akzo Nobel (mentioned in the article) today delivers whitening agents for paper production and the conservation products for the restoration of aged art works. They have the best knowledge of what could go wrong but as a commercial entity their goal is their next stock result.  Requests from museum restoration departments are honored (sparingly) by governmental subsidies for university research.  The character of these institutes is one of looking back more than predicting what lies ahead, by that creating their livelihood for the next decades. Photographer's collectives / associations seem to be inadequate to take initiatives on increasing longevity of their products. Outside the US nothing has been done with the disastrously fading Kodak / Agfa color print films and prints in the 1970's -80's, the same with the Epson "orange plague" dye ink inkjet prints. At least some class actions happened in the US, we stil have to learn something over here. Anyway that is also not more than some compensation for lost value. I wonder why a company like FujiFilm actually did more for the longevity of chromogenic color film/prints than EU or US companies. Something to do with their crafts tradition?  So far it seems that individuals have to fill in the gaps. Henry Wilhelm did that decades ago. Mark does it now as far as his budget goes.

Saturday I was at a discussion about the archiving / publishing of photographer's estates. Initiatives are fragmented in what they want, some restricted in their goal by the conditions set by their financial supporters,  some set arbitrary limits to keep the influx low (with to me quite odd arguments). In general the art photographers fell overboard as their work is not strictly bound by local area content in their images and on the other hand they were not commercially active enough over a ten year period. In conservation/publishing one group took the headlong rush into the internet cloud, more or less with the advice to burn the original film and print collection afterwards, another institute sees a decade of preparing one estate as quite normal for archiving, depends on the facilities of other institutes for cold rooms etc. And it wants all the rights on the material but has no plan on publishing.  I would not call their financial structures as sound either.  Best thing I saw was a private initiative of two photographers that preserved, indexed, presented in book, with loving care, the works of a deceased amateur photographer they learned from in the past. They take care of new prints, the sale of old prints and whatever will be needed to keep the work alive. This way it could also still be viewed as intended and not just seen on a display. The past has shown that B&W film/glass and prints can survive hundreds of years (including two or three wars here) with some care.  We still have to see what a cyber war or just some amateur hacking can do to the cloud. Discussing media that can survive better in the future didn't get time in that discussion.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2019, 08:34:25 am »

Reading that article (fast though) I think the use of TiO2 itself does not have to be that harmful for the longevity of encapsulated pigment particle inks. As long as there is no OBA used in the paper along with the TiO2. The usual OBAs are dyes (stilbene etc) so what is described in the article suits what we know now of the combination of TiO2 and OBAs, thanks to Aardenburg Imaging. In practice I doubt there are any inkjet papers with and without OBAs that do not contain TiO2 as a whitening agent. On the use of BaSo4, it was in a Sihl publication I think that I saw 15% content mentioned for that whitening agent. The only number so far and it did not tell whether it was per weight or volume, a percentage of the total paper structure or just of the inkjet coating. It made me sceptical on the "Baryte" branding of inkjet papers. It still is more an attempt to bring the old baryta analogue paper white and surface/tactical experience to inkjet printing than something else. Anyway the whitening agent industry has a wide variety of products that can contain more than just TiO2/BaSo4 in the mix. Zinc oxides, kaolin, etc are added as well and mixes like that get their brand or industry names we have no clue about.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
It will be interesting to see if any data can be generated about papers that contain TiO2 but no OBAs.  Maybe what Mark has seen in some of the discoloration only takes place with OBA containing papers.  I think the last point that I highlighted is important.  There are a lot of different whitening agents that are sold and paper manufacturers are not disclosing what they use.  It's left up to us to try to figure this out. 
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deanwork

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Re: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2019, 08:47:39 am »

Are there any Ti02 whitened fiber gloss papers that don’t contain oba dyes that are safe for the long term?

Like you guys have discussed, it’s impossible for all of us end users trying to advise clients about media to know exactly what to advise. I always tell them that “natural” papers like Hahnemuehle Photorag Pearl or Photorag Baryta or Platine iwith its proprietary whitener are the safest in the fiber gloss realm. There is also the Silver Rag if it’s still being sold by Intellicoat, and possibly the warm Innova. Though the warm Harmon that is no longer made was shown to have bleaching problems for some reason. I try to only use media that is produced in large volume by companies that are going to continue producing it over time. I also like to stick with a few papers that I can stock in roll form. Unfortunately I am very suspicious of smaller companies that buy paper stock and coat it themselves, unless the coating is done by Scholler or someone like that. That’s the same way I feel about knock off color pigments.

I guess I need to spend more time with Ernsts’s comprehensive list, though as he says it’s almost impossible to know exactly what formula of Ti02 is being used. It seems like avoiding oba dyes is the easy part.

John




Reading that article (fast though) I think the use of TiO2 itself does not have to be that harmful for the longevity of encapsulated pigment particle inks. As long as there is no OBA used in the paper along with the TiO2. The usual OBAs are dyes (stilbene etc) so what is described in the article suits what we know now of the combination of TiO2 and OBAs, thanks to Aardenburg Imaging. In practice I doubt there are any inkjet papers with and without OBAs that do not contain TiO2 as a whitening agent. On the use of BaSo4, it was in a Sihl publication I think that I saw 15% content mentioned for that whitening agent. The only number so far and it did not tell whether it was per weight or volume, a percentage of the total paper structure or just of the inkjet coating. It made me sceptical on the "Baryte" branding of inkjet papers. It still is more an attempt to bring the old baryta analogue paper white and surface/tactical experience to inkjet printing than something else. Anyway the whitening agent industry has a wide variety of products that can contain more than just TiO2/BaSo4 in the mix. Zinc oxides, kaolin, etc are added as well and mixes like that get their brand or industry names we have no clue about.

Whether chemistry could be an answer to detect TiO2, in its different qualities, in the paper structure?  I have to read it better but usually that is a messy route. I do not think the institutes involved will answer my Dutch requests either. There was never an interest in my SpectrumViz project from institutes like that. Sure it hardly can be called a scientific project but I still have to see work done at that scale somewhere else. Most of these conservation research projects aim at curing the problems with aged art/photography works and do not aim at preventing problems that will occur in the next decades. An industry like Akzo Nobel (mentioned in the article) today delivers whitening agents for paper production and the conservation products for the restoration of aged art works. They have the best knowledge of what could go wrong but as a commercial entity their goal is their next stock result.  Requests from museum restoration departments are honored (sparingly) by governmental subsidies for university research.  The character of these institutes is one of looking back more than predicting what lies ahead, by that creating their livelihood for the next decades. Photographer's collectives / associations seem to be inadequate to take initiatives on increasing longevity of their products. Outside the US nothing has been done with the disastrously fading Kodak / Agfa color print films and prints in the 1970's -80's, the same with the Epson "orange plague" dye ink inkjet prints. At least some class actions happened in the US, we stil have to learn something over here. Anyway that is also not more than some compensation for lost value. I wonder why a company like FujiFilm actually did more for the longevity of chromogenic color film/prints than EU or US companies. Something to do with their crafts tradition?  So far it seems that individuals have to fill in the gaps. Henry Wilhelm did that decades ago. Mark does it now as far as his budget goes.

Saturday I was at a discussion about the archiving / publishing of photographer's estates. Initiatives are fragmented in what they want, some restricted in their goal by the conditions set by their financial supporters,  some set arbitrary limits to keep the influx low (with to me quite odd arguments). In general the art photographers fell overboard as their work is not strictly bound by local area content in their images and on the other hand they were not commercially active enough over a ten year period. In conservation/publishing one group took the headlong rush into the internet cloud, more or less with the advice to burn the original film and print collection afterwards, another institute sees a decade of preparing one estate as quite normal for archiving, depends on the facilities of other institutes for cold rooms etc. And it wants all the rights on the material but has no plan on publishing.  I would not call their financial structures as sound either.  Best thing I saw was a private initiative of two photographers that preserved, indexed, presented in book, with loving care, the works of a deceased amateur photographer they learned from in the past. They take care of new prints, the sale of old prints and whatever will be needed to keep the work alive. This way it could also still be viewed as intended and not just seen on a display. The past has shown that B&W film/glass and prints can survive hundreds of years (including two or three wars here) with some care.  We still have to see what a cyber war or just some amateur hacking can do to the cloud. Discussing media that can survive better in the future didn't get time in that discussion.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2019, 03:57:23 pm »

Are there any Ti02 whitened fiber gloss papers that don’t contain oba dyes that are safe for the long term?

Like you guys have discussed, it’s impossible for all of us end users trying to advise clients about media to know exactly what to advise. I always tell them that “natural” papers like Hahnemuehle Photorag Pearl or Photorag Baryta or Platine iwith its proprietary whitener are the safest in the fiber gloss realm. There is also the Silver Rag if it’s still being sold by Intellicoat, and possibly the warm Innova. Though the warm Harmon that is no longer made was shown to have bleaching problems for some reason. I try to only use media that is produced in large volume by companies that are going to continue producing it over time. I also like to stick with a few papers that I can stock in roll form. Unfortunately I am very suspicious of smaller companies that buy paper stock and coat it themselves, unless the coating is done by Scholler or someone like that. That’s the same way I feel about knock off color pigments.

I guess I need to spend more time with Ernsts’s comprehensive list, though as he says it’s almost impossible to know exactly what formula of Ti02 is being used. It seems like avoiding oba dyes is the easy part.

John
Ernst's data is the best available in terms of paper spectra.  Mark's data at Aardenburg is great if there is a paper and inkset you are interested in.  Museo ink jet paper has been sold several times since Crane first worked with Intellicoat.  It's now owned by Dietzgen (the company that used to make slide rules) who own a number paper lines.  I don't know if the recipe/manufacturer have changed at all.  I have done some printing on Moab Juniper Rag which is also a Baryta paper with no OBAs.  It has a similar finish to Silver Rag and the spectral response is also in the same range.  However, letter size is on back order and I need to re-profile now that Canon has a dedicated Baryta setting for the Pro-1000 printer.

I've attached the spectra for the three Baryta papers from Ernst's database.  I think the drop off for Juniper Rag is a result of TiO2 being present.
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deanwork

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Re: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2019, 04:12:39 pm »

Thanks Alan,

Has Juniper Rag been fade tested? Moab seems like a pretty reliable company overall but like all the others, their image stability varies widely depending on the paper selected.

I just pulled out a print done on Silver Rag over a decade ago and it’s pretty warm by today’s standards.





Ernst's data is the best available in terms of paper spectra.  Mark's data at Aardenburg is great if there is a paper and inkset you are interested in.  Museo ink jet paper has been sold several times since Crane first worked with Intellicoat.  It's now owned by Dietzgen (the company that used to make slide rules) who own a number paper lines.  I don't know if the recipe/manufacturer have changed at all.  I have done some printing on Moab Juniper Rag which is also a Baryta paper with no OBAs.  It has a similar finish to Silver Rag and the spectral response is also in the same range.  However, letter size is on back order and I need to re-profile now that Canon has a dedicated Baryta setting for the Pro-1000 printer.

I've attached the spectra for the three Baryta papers from Ernst's database.  I think the drop off for Juniper Rag is a result of TiO2 being present.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2019, 04:44:10 pm »

Thanks Alan,

Has Juniper Rag been fade tested? Moab seems like a pretty reliable company overall but like all the others, their image stability varies widely depending on the paper selected.

I just pulled out a print done on Silver Rag over a decade ago and it’s pretty warm by today’s standards.
Juniper Rag has not been tested.  The only papers that have are Entrada Rag and Somerset Enhanced Velvet.  I'll contact Mark about sponsoring a test of Juniper Rag.

Silver Rag is a warm paper as it never contained any Baryta.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2019, 05:59:03 am »

In the smooth matte warm cotton papers you will see several that have the UV absorption bend downwards but no significant bump in blue output that is typical for OBA.  I find it hard to say whether that is just TiO2. For example the Mediajet sample in the attached spectral plots image could well have some OBA aboard. More balanced with other whitening agents that the result is still a warm paper with a high total white reflectance. As written already there are more whitening agents than TiO2, BaSO4, OBAs and TiO2 can have some different crystalization forms, not to mention tweaked versions of it. I do not know all the typical spectral plots of the whitening agents and my Eye One Pro spectrometer is not up to that task either I think. You would need one that goes further into UV and uses a finer spacing on the wave lengths, possibly further beyond red to see heat output as well. I could use ArgyllCMS to get to 3.333 NM steps but the S/N ratio may suffer and the spectral range is not really widened. Right now I do not know whether I can translate its spectral data as easily as it is done from iShare to SpectrumViz. Besides discussing this with my son who does the software part, he likes to rewrite SpectrumViz so it can be used on the server itself and no download is needed. Anyway he will not have much time for that right now.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots




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JRSmit

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Re: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2019, 06:22:32 am »

Thanks to Ernst's Spectrumviz i found out that Schoeller had removed the J23000 and replaced IT with J24000, but with the same name. But it is different, the White point "b" value is now 2.3, but with the J23000 it is(was) 0.7 .
Checking Schoeller, they claim papers are identical. 🤔
Funny enough there is no data on the Schoeller website anymore about J23000.


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BrianWJH

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Re: Canson Baryta and Canson Platine
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2019, 03:55:16 pm »

Thanks to Ernst's Spectrumviz i found out that Schoeller had removed the J23000 and replaced IT with J24000, but with the same name.

Possibly to do with the release of Epson Legacy papers specifically the Legacy Platine in this case.

Brian.
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