Canson Baryta and Canson Platine

[deanwork]

I have a longevity question about these two Canson papers.

I’ve been using Platine for a long time. I like everything about it including no oba content, 100 cotton, good white point, gamut, dmax, and it is easier to flatten off a roll and never curls to the point of causing head strikes in any of my printers.

This week I’ve been doing some prints on the Canson Infinity Baryta again  ( not Prestige ) and am really liking the look of it especially the gamut, texture, and sharpness. I never used it much because I was afraid of curling and head strikes in roll form.

I looked on Wilhelms site this am and see he has rated the Baryta longevity a little better than Platine with all the inks.
He also labels this paper as oba free, which is totally wrong. I just put it under my black light and it glows super brightly, and as brightly as any of the oba saturated rc media I have around here.

So where do these fade figures come from? Is he ignoring clear obvious  oba burnout again? Hell I don’t know whether to use this paper or not. It sure looks great.

I haven’t tried the Baryta Prestige yet. It seems like it will be too thick for a lot of roll printing if you are to keep it from curling, but it is half cotton. But maybe I should try it for sheets. I assume it has oba also.

I put the Hahnemuhle Photorag Metallic under the black light and it doesn’t seem to have any oba.

John




http://www.wilhelm-research.com/Canson/WIR_Canson_Fine_Art_and_Photo_Papers_2019-10-20.pdf

[faberryman]

Not sure about Canson Infinity Baryta. I use Canson Baryta Photographique. OBA content is rated at "very low". It is the closest to air dried fiber based glossy silver gelatin I have found.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Not sure about Canson Infinity Baryta. I use Canson Baryta Photographique. OBA content is rated at "very low". It is the closest to air dried fiber based glossy silver gelatin I have found.

If you look at Ernst Dinkla's spectral plots the Baryta Photogrphique shows a very small bump where one expects to see OBA effects.  I could not find a plot for the Infinity Baryta, but the black light test that John did is reliable in identifying large amounts of OBA.

[mearussi]

I bought a black light because I kept getting different answers about OBA content depending on who I asked within the same company. But testing with a black light leaves no question. I also discovered that some papers that claim "no OBA" actually put a LOT in the paper base even if there isn't any in the inkjet coating itself, which is not something the paper company will tell you about.

Checking BC's Lyve canvas was where I first discovered this phenomenon. There may be no OBAs in the coating but there's a ton of it in the canvas (though I'm not sure how much this affects it's archivability).

[deanwork]

Yea the paper I’ve been testing is the Canson Baryta Photographique. The one that’s been around a long time.

It’s a great looking paper but it glows super brightly under my black light. That’s disconcerting when people are selling through major galleries...

Just tested  Photorag 308 matte rag  and it only has a slight glow, not bright. And Epson Hot Press glows brightly like the Canson Baryta.

I’m going to order some of that very thick Prestige .

What is the best smooth fiber gloss Hahnemuhle that I should test?

I have printed on and like the Photorag Pearl and it’s oba brother Fine Art Pearl both of which I like.

Haven’t tested all the new Hahnemuehle fiber gloss.

John

If you look at Ernst Dinkla's spectral plots the Baryta Photogrphique shows a very small bump where one expects to see OBA effects.  I could not find a plot for the Infinity Baryta, but the black light test that John did is reliable in identifying large amounts of OBA.

[deanwork]

Well I’ll be damn. Just looked at the Lyve canvas and it indeed does have some oba, it has a slight glow like Photorag 308. So they lied.

I tested Platine and Rag Photographique again just now and there is NO glow at all, so no oba .

The Canson Pro Satin that I use glows like crazy super bright. That’s the same one Wilhelm has rated at over 400 years behind uv glass with Vivera inks.... his bad.

John

I bought a black light because I kept getting different answers about OBA content depending on who I asked within the same company. But testing with a black light leaves no question. I also discovered that some papers that claim "no OBA" actually put a LOT in the paper base even if there isn't any in the inkjet coating itself, which is not something the paper company will tell you about.

Checking BC's Lyve canvas was where I first discovered this phenomenon. There may be no OBAs in the coating but there's a ton of it in the canvas (though I'm not sure how much this affects it's archivability).

[MHMG]

...I looked on Wilhelms site this am and see he has rated the Baryta longevity a little better than Platine with all the inks.
He also labels this paper as oba free, which is totally wrong. I just put it under my black light and it glows super brightly, and as brightly as any of the oba saturated rc media I have around here.

So where do these fade figures come from? Is he ignoring clear obvious  oba burnout again? Hell I don’t know whether to use this paper or not. It sure looks great.

I haven’t tried the Baryta Prestige yet. It seems like it will be too thick for a lot of roll printing if you are to keep it from curling, but it is half cotton. But maybe I should try it for sheets. I assume it has oba also.

I put the Hahnemuhle Photorag Metallic under the black light and it doesn’t seem to have any oba.

John
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/Canson/WIR_Canson_Fine_Art_and_Photo_Papers_2019-10-20.pdf

There's a whole category of so-called "Baryta" papers, and IGFS,CIBP, Innova Exhibition Baryta, Canson Baryta Prestige, Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta, Epson Legacy Baryta, and numerous others that fall into this category. They do have OBAs in the subbing layers albeit in relatively low amounts, plus a pinch or two of Barium Sulfate so they can be called baryta, but they also have TiO2 whitening pigments. Hence, they suffer from light induced low intensity staining (LILIS). I picked the problem up in earlier tests I've run at Aardenburg, but for our upcoming 2020 inks and media project I'm going to run a group of these non RC "traditional" Barytas using the new Aardenburg extended testing protocol which now tracks the long term dark storage and LILIS effects as well. I'm certain these "baryta" papers are going to show the LILIS issue, I just don't know if it will be as severe as what we see for RC photo papers like Epson Premium Luster or Canon Pro Luster.

As for the WIR testing methodology, WIR allows a fairly liberal whitepoint discoloration value (a holdover from the color chromogenic era where paper yellowing was pretty bad in the early days), so inkjet media rarely trigger on that criterion even when they are loaded with high OBA content. In the WIR 3.0 densitometric test, it's the pure yellow patch which tends to determine the rating for many pigmented ink sets. Hence, if one studies the WIR ratings more broadly, one can see that papers containing OBAs tend to get higher scores than OBA-free papers. Why? Because the paper yellowing doesn't trigger the whitepoint endpoint, but rather this increase in yellowing tends to offset the loss of yellow density in the WIR pure yellow test patch. Hence, the yellow patch performance gets propped up somewhat compared to how that ink performs on OBA-free media. Thus, despite considerable caveats in the WIR addenda warning about the use of OBAs, the WIR test results themselves tend to suggest just the opposite. Essentially It's an artifact of the WIR densitometric testing method. The real truth is that OBAs lower print permanence. They never increase it! The I* metric based on CIELAB colorimetry proportions the media yellowing properties correctly into the Aardenburg Conservation Display ratings. We just have to look for the yellowing when and where it occurs. That's the reason for the recent R&D I did to incorporate an extended light fade/dark storage testing procedure into our new extended testing protocol which will be used at Aardenburg from now on for all media containing OBAs.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[deanwork]

As usual Mark is the scientist who considers all the factors of image permanence simultaneously.

Really this flaw in Wilhelm’s methodology goes way back to his published data 18 years ago when he gave the Epson Archival Matte, which was a junk paper soaked with cheap obas in the coating, a 100 year rating.
We saw those prints turning gray in our studios in a years time exposed to small amounts of daylight.
....for the benefit of people who weren’t around back then........it’s not just the paper edges that are effected, it’s All of the light values in the print.

And it’s still going on, this confusing of our clients in ignoring the dye brightener issue. And as Mark just described there is another factor to think about, titanium white that may cause low light staining in many of these “Baryta” papers we like the qualities of. Always something to worry about.

Anyway despite what Wilhelm is posting, It seems to me that Platine seems the safest fiber gloss media that is not completely free of any kind of brighteners. I like the oba free Photorag Pearl a lot, but it’s not exactly the most desired choice for imagery that is high in color saturation. And for that reason many people will reject it, as I keep trying to talk them into using it.

John



Hence, the yellow patch performance gets propped up somewhat compared to how that ink performs on OBA-free media. Thus, despite considerable caveats in the WIR addenda warning about the use of OBAs, the WIR test results themselves tend to suggest just the opposite. Essentially It's an artifact of the WIR densitometric testing method. Truth is that OBAs lower print permanence. They never increase it!

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
[/quote]

[mearussi]

You might also want to check Innova Art's ifa-45. It's my favorite of all the "Platine" type of papers. It has a slightly mottled surface to cut reflections and resist fingerprints.

https://www.innovaart.com/product/exhibition-cotton-gloss-335gsm/

[mearussi]

Well I’ll be damn. Just looked at the Lyve canvas and it indeed does have some oba, it has a slight glow like Photorag 308. So they lied.

John

Yep. What a shock, a company that lies about its product. To quote Reagan "Trust but verify."

That's why I use this instead of Lyve:

https://www.canson-infinity.com/en/products/museum-pro-canvas

It also has the smoothest canvas surface I've ever tested (and I've tested a lot).


BTW, BC's latest OBA free paper River Stone Satin Rag 350 has TiO2.

[deanwork]

I’m not shocked that they lied. I’m shocked that I never even looked at it under my black light.

However it’s a very nice canvas and all the other ones I’ve used
 have a lot more oba than that and not nearly as good of a gamut. But I haven’t tried Canson canvas....

John

Yep. What a shock, a company that lies about its product.
To quote Reagan "Trust but verify." BTW, BC's latest OBA free paper River Stone Satin Rag 350 has TiO2.

[mearussi]

I’m not shocked that they lied. I’m shocked that I never even looked at it under my black light.

However it’s a very nice canvas and all the other ones I’ve used
 have a lot more oba than that and not nearly as good of a gamut. But I haven’t tried Canson canvas....

John

The luster version of the Canson Museum Pro is the"prettiest" canvas I've seen and it lacks the horrid speckled reflections of BC's (and others) gloss canvases. Looks very close to a high quality semigloss paper.

[deanwork]

I’ve been happy with Lyve and satin timeless varnish for a long time, but sounds like I should check this out. Thanks,

John

The luster version of the Canson Museum Pro is the"prettiest" canvas I've seen and it lacks the horrid speckled reflections of BC's (and others) gloss canvases. Looks very close to a high quality semigloss paper.

[Alan Goldhammer]

the thing that bugs me the most is the TiO2 issue.  There are easy ways to detect OBAs but if a paper manufacturer has TiO2 in the coating, there's not an easy way to check for this other than to look for problems down the line.  While paper manufacturers do advertise the use of barium sulfate in coating, they certainly do not mention TiO2.  There is a group of Dutch researchers who have developed what looks like a simple test for TiO2 but it's focused more on the presence in paint pigments:  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026265X15003288   Maybe one of our Dutch members can contact them to see if this can be extrapolated to ink jet papers.

[smthopr]

Anyway despite what Wilhelm is posting, It seems to me that Platine seems the safest fiber gloss media that is not completely free of any kind of brighteners. I like the oba free Photorag Pearl a lot, but it’s not exactly the most desired choice for imagery that is high in color saturation. And for that reason many people will reject it, as I keep trying to talk them into using it.

John


http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

The language here is a little bit confusing...  Does this mean to say that Canson Platine does not include any OBA?  I'm referring to "not completely free of any kind of brighteners" line

[MHMG]

the thing that bugs me the most is the TiO2 issue.  There are easy ways to detect OBAs but if a paper manufacturer has TiO2 in the coating, there's not an easy way to check for this other than to look for problems down the line.  While paper manufacturers do advertise the use of barium sulfate in coating, they certainly do not mention TiO2.  There is a group of Dutch researchers who have developed what looks like a simple test for TiO2 but it's focused more on the presence in paint pigments:  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026265X15003288   Maybe one of our Dutch members can contact them to see if this can be extrapolated to ink jet papers.

Yes, the spectral curves like Ernst generously makes available to us are hard to decipher when both TiO2 and OBAs are present because both OBAs and TiO2 alone will cause a distinct downturn in the spectral reflectance starting at around 400nm. I had to use a portable X-ray Flourescence (XRF) unit at the Williamstown Art Conservation Center to determine that both IGFS and Canson Baryta Photographique contained TiO2 as well as Baryta. Not something an enduser can routinely do!  However, I knew these two papers showed clear signs of LILIS in my early tests of them, and my hypothesis was that LILIS happens in papers with both OBA and TiO2 (which means essentially all RC photo papers). The confirmation of both OBAs and TiO2 in these two papers is therefore totally consistent with my hypothesis that there's a TiO2/faded OBA chemical interaction which develops more yellowing in low light or dark storage conditions over time than can be explained merely by loss of OBA fluorescence.  Hence, the commonly cited notion that papers merely revert to the paper's natural white state when the OBAs fade is false, at least for papers containing TiO2.

In the upcoming Aardenburg tests to start in 2020 I will deliberately place some papers that do not have TiO2 but do contain OBAs into test to see if they also exhibit LILIS. I don't think they will. These are papers like Moab Entrada Bright (not to be confused with Entrada Natural) It is loaded with OBAs, but does not have TiO2.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[MHMG]

The language here is a little bit confusing...  Does this mean to say that Canson Platine does not include any OBA?  I'm referring to "not completely free of any kind of brighteners" line

I think John mistyped a little, and that he meant to say "is completely free". I'm happy to jump in here on John's behalf only because I do know the answer.  Platine is totally free of OBAs, and both spectrophotometer readings as well as basic blacklight tests demonstrate that Platine is completely OBA-free.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[deanwork]

That was an odd sentence that I wrote, but what I was referring to is Platine is not a “natural” rag paper in that it has some pigment brighteners that make it whiter than the other papers of its kind but still does not contain dye brighteners  ( or titanium dioxide if I remember correctly from discussing this with Mark awhile back).  And that is the very reason it bugs me to see Wilhelm Research rate it with less longevity than Canson Baryta and the rc papers  that contain one or both of those.

Apparently Platine has some kind of silica pigment in it that other similar papers do not have, so it’s unique in that respect, apparently. I used to think Breathinc Color Lyve might have the same form of brightening pigment, but now from the black light test  I see it has some oba. The reason the Lyve  subtle neutral brightness doesn’t bother me is the very durable Timeless varnish I use on it.

John

I think John mistyped a little, and that he meant to say "is completely free". I'm happy to jump in here on John's behalf only because I do know the answer.  Platine is totally free of OBAs, and both spectrophotometer readings as well as basic blacklight tests demonstrate that Platine is completely OBA-free.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[smthopr]

That was an odd sentence that I wrote, but what I was referring to is Platine is not a “natural” rag paper in that it has some pigment brighteners that make it whiter than the other papers of its kind but still does not contain dye brighteners  ( or titanium dioxide if I remember correctly from discussing this with Mark awhile back).  And that is the very reason it bugs me to see Wilhelm Research rate it with less longevity than Canson Baryta and the rc papers  that contain one or both of those.

Apparently Platine has some kind of silica pigment in it that other similar papers do not have, so it’s unique in that respect, apparently. I used to think Breathinc Color Lyve might have the same form of brightening pigment, but now from the black light test  I see it has some oba. The reason the Lyve  subtle neutral brightness doesn’t bother me is the very durable Timeless varnish I use on it.

John

This is interesting as, when I was researching papers, I found that Platine was a brighter white than other papers that contained OBAs...  At least when not viewed in light containing large amounts of UV

[deanwork]

Yes, that is what I like about it, the whiteness remains consistent under tungsten or daylight, and does not fluoresce under daylight or pure uv light. I find it very neutral in hue, not warm and not cool under any illumination. It’s great for black and white neutral prints as the highlights don’t shift from the hue of the shadows and midtones of the ink.. Warmer papers or bluer papers can create a split tone that may or may not be desirable.

This is interesting as, when I was researching papers, I found that Platine was a brighter white than other papers that contained OBAs...  At least when not viewed in light containing large amounts of UV