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Author Topic: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+  (Read 4958 times)

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2019, 11:15:40 am »

$1895 for the printer and $395 for the full inks in printer.(LD)
Plus 2 or 3 other full new carts.
$2290
Picked up at my Pa. studio.

Could it be that DPreview.com is offline?  There was a thread there on purchasing a wide format and I linked this thread/message in good spirit but now I recall they can be quite strict on links like that there. I can not reach DPreview.com.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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mearussi

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Re: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2019, 11:47:05 am »

Could it be that DPreview.com is offline?  There was a thread there on purchasing a wide format and I linked this thread/message in good spirit but now I recall they can be quite strict on links like that there. I can not reach DPreview.com.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
I can't either.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2019, 11:49:57 am »

I can't either.

Alright, thank you.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Panagiotis

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Re: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2019, 01:42:04 pm »

Because the Z9+ does away with LC, LM, and LLK inks, I am also very curious about initial print quality on the New Z9+ compared to my older Z3200 and also compared to my Pro-4000, also my smaller Pro-1000 and Epson SC P600 desktop printers. I've only taken a very brief look at this issue so far because I have only had the Z9+ running for a few days now. IMHO, for 99% of viewers looking at prints from these different printers at a rational (i.e. normal) viewing distance, the Image quality is excellent from all of them and in high quality printing mode, the observer does not see grain. Most printing experts I suspect will say you can't go wrong purchasing any one of them if your purchase is being determined solely by print output under "best quality" mode printing conditions. 

I do plan to take a more serious look as to how we can better objectively quantify the question you are asking. Are there subtle differences where a very discerning viewer might like one printer's output over another, and would that be all the time or just for some specific imaging situations like skin tone reproduction or B&W printing? Not trying to sidestep the question in any way, but in truth, at that level of viewer sophistication, it gets complicated!  How inkjet printer screening patterns and dot structures on the paper translate into the visual perception of a continuous tone print at normal viewing distances is a multifaceted issue.  For example, the Iris 3047 which ushered in the Digital Fineart printmaking era, had a distinct yet precisely ordered dot structure which is unmistakeable when viewed with an 8x loupe, but at normal viewing distance Iris prints have a gorgeous continuous tone appearance that many collectors really prize.

That said, there's another reason to consider printer dot structure and screening patterns:  prints sometime end up being the source original needing to be scanned because the camera source original cannot be found, and in that situation dot structure under higher magnification does play a greater role in scanned output quality.

I can say already that under higher magnification the HP Z9+ begins to show a little more noticeable grain structure overall while the Epson and Canon printers are a little smoother overall, but the Z9+ shows more uniformly pleasing grain throughout the printed color range, whereas, for example, my Canon Pro-1000 exhibits more color noise variation throughout the printed color range. Again. it's complicated.

In full color mode, the Canons and Epsons also reveal obvious color dots in the neutral RGB triplet colors whereas the HP is dead-on photo gray ink only. Those of us with HP Z3200's already know what this means for superior B&W printing, especially when printing in full color mode. The Z9+ continues in the tradition of the Z3200 with a 100% gray component replacement (GCR) method for printing RGB neutral triplets. Canon and Epson apply GCR much less aggressively. It may well be that a focus group being presented blind coded prints of a variety of subjects and being asked to do a paired comparison or rank order type of evaluation may be the only type of study printmakers would accept as a valid answer to your question. Those types of studies take time and money!

Let me close this longwinded comment by telling you my single biggest impression about the Z9+ to date. HP has built into this printer the easiest most effective color calibration/profiling routine I have ever used. Using only 464 patches for color profiling this printer's output rivals the results from my best proflling kit using much higher patch count. The underlying printer calibration/lineariation is so good, that bigger patch counts are definitely in the realm of very diminishing returns. Why HP marketing has so downplayed the on board spectrophotometer and color calibration/profling capability of the Z9+ in their marketing brochures is anybody's guess. Maybe they think color management scares people in general away from buying printers. I think HP marketing should be shouting this capability from the roof top, because for the majority of photographers and printmakers who are not and probably don't want to be color management geeks, the Z9+ handles all that color complexity with sheer elegance and grace :)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Thank you very much for the detailed response. I appreciate it and find it very informative and useful.
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eternal camper

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Re: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2019, 11:16:14 pm »

Well, good evening to one and all!
It has really been a learning experience reading the replies that helped me decide which printer I should get. I have come away from this challenge with 2 decisions, and you all helped!

first, I will buy the HP Z9+. It still seems to be early to get anyone who has used it for awhile but whoever has one seems to be quite happy (thrilled may be a better word),

Secondly, I am now not so sure that I should get the 24" as a few have mentioned that if I will print with canvas, I may want to move to a larger printer as the wrap around will only allow me to print at 19".

BUT
there is still one more question I would like help with, and that is the CO kit that is sold separately, and can be purchased whenever one decides.

I read somewhere and I do not remember where, that when does install it, it can not be undone, but I guess if the operator can turn it off or on whenever one wants to use it, what is the negative of getting it when one purchases the printer?

Hope to hear from someone who has used the CO and the results you can get with it very soon.
Are we able to turn it on/off whenever we wish?

Stephen
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MHMG

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Re: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2019, 10:04:20 am »


Hope to hear from someone who has used the CO and the results you can get with it very soon.
Are we able to turn it on/off whenever we wish?

Stephen

HP makes the Gloss Enhancer (GE) an optional channel because some folks only print on matte media and don't need it. If you wish to install it you buy the GE kit which comes with 300ml GE cartridge, USB stick w/softare to upgrade the printer firmware for GE, and a new print head. If you elect to install the GE Kit at the very beginning when you first initialize the printer, make sure to install the GE cartridge at the very beginning and follow the prompts to install the GE. Then the original print head will be used and you will be able to keep the print head which comes in the kit as a universal spare. That's a cool feature of the Z9+.  Once operational the GE can indeed be turned on and off at your user discretion, but I don't see any options for different ways to lay it down. No econo mode versus full coat coverage. That said, The Z9+ lays down GE very sensibly. It does cleacoat image white areas but doesn't extend to paper margin areas like some printers do when using an "overall" mode. If you want page margins with clear coat, just add a white border into the image.

I will share with all of you, an amusing story with my new Z9+. I started using the Z9+ with a cheap roll of Glossy RC media to get familiar with it, and I noticed the color profile patch chart printed the GE into the image white areas because I'd chosen a custom media preset option to use the GE. Yet when I started printing real images, my first impression was that the printer had now defaulted to an "economy mode" where the GE was not being laid down into the pure white areas. I couldn't figure out what setting I'd missed in the driver, but otherwise, I had the impression the GE must be getting used because the glossy prints I was making have very little bronzing, not perfect, but very low and essentially what Epson achieves without use of a GO channel on its WF printers. Well, it turns out the GE feature is checked "off" by default in the printer driver, and the printer was not using the GE at all!  I missed it because the HP driver locates the checkbox for GE in a very odd place. It's under the "color options" menu (at least in the Mac version of driver), which is a lame place to put it because typical printer driver practice for most printers is that anyone who uses application managed color (such as with photoshop or LR), the color option menu is never used. It's only used when one is following a "printer manages color" workflow. The "paper/quality" menu option is thus the logical place to locate a gloss enhancer/optimizer setting.  It just didn't occur to me to look for the GE "on/off" checkbox in that location in the driver. I assumed that the custom media preset had "baked" in the GE ON mode, but that's not correct. It did when producing the ICC Profile, but to use the feature when actually printing, you have to check the box located under the color option menu.  The tip off came when all else failed and I read the manual! ;)  But even the manual only took note that a checkbox for on/off was available. It doesn't say where you will find it in the driver!  Once I figured this out (it took a lot of head scratching!) the GE coats the image like it does with the ICC color profile test chart, and all is well.

If you aren't too fussy about bronzing and differential gloss, you might just want to hold off and install the kit later (albeit you will need the spare print head from the kit), but if you are very picky about gloss differential and bronzing like I am, then you are going to want the GE kit. It does what it's designed to do, namely uniformize the gloss appearance and increase the "vividness" of the printed image colors on glossy and luster type photo media.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 08:04:44 am by MHMG »
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markgunion

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Re: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2019, 04:09:26 pm »

Eternal Camper,    This may be too late to do you any good but I'll toss it out anyway, just in case.     ImagePrint software RIP can now be linked to a Graphtec plotter with a cutting head.   You do your print and cut layouts in ImagePrint (either Black or Red version), then print the photos on sheet or roll paper in a standard Canon or Epson printer (up to 24" wide, currently).    Then take the sheet/roll fragment of ganged prints to the Graphtec, insert the paper, and start it up.   It will cut out the prints for you, leaving just a couple very tiny spikes per print so the prints don't just fall out.    When it's done cutting, you simply pop the prints out with no real effort.    I saw this in operation in early October at a shindig put on by JVH Technical in Bellevue, WA.   It was pretty slick.    You can "embed" the images in fancy cutouts, or just cut them right out with straight edges and square or rounded corners.   
 
These URLs may helpful if you wish to learn more about this product pairing:
   www.colorbytesoftware.com (information and videos)
   https://www.graphtecamerica.com
   https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1514524-REG/canon_4511c001aa_24_ce6000_60_contour_cutter.html [note there are two Graphtecs here, 24" & 48" max paper length]
                 
I don't know where you are located, but if you're in/close to the pacific NW, JVH Technical is a very helpful outfit:
  www.JVHtech.com;  JohnJVHtech@gmail.com

Mark G.



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eternal camper

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Re: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2019, 09:46:14 pm »

Eternal Camper,    This may be too late to do you any good but I'll toss it out anyway, just in case.     ImagePrint software RIP can now be linked to a Graphtec plotter with a cutting head.   You do your print and cut layouts in ImagePrint (either Black or Red version), then print the photos on sheet or roll paper in a standard Canon or Epson printer (up to 24" wide, currently).    Then take the sheet/roll fragment of ganged prints to the Graphtec, insert the paper, and start it up.   It will cut out the prints for you, leaving just a couple very tiny spikes per print so the prints don't just fall out.    When it's done cutting, you simply pop the prints out with no real effort.    I saw this in operation in early October at a shindig put on by JVH Technical in Bellevue, WA.   It was pretty slick.    You can "embed" the images in fancy cutouts, or just cut them right out with straight edges and square or rounded corners.   
 
These URLs may helpful if you wish to learn more about this product pairing:
   www.colorbytesoftware.com (information and videos)
   https://www.graphtecamerica.com
   https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1514524-REG/canon_4511c001aa_24_ce6000_60_contour_cutter.html [note there are two Graphtecs here, 24" & 48" max paper length]
                 
I don't know where you are located, but if you're in/close to the pacific NW, JVH Technical is a very helpful outfit:
  www.JVHtech.com;  JohnJVHtech@gmail.com

Mark G.


So, Mark, are you saying that to use ImagePrint and its new option, I would have to purchase a new Graphtec plotter with a cutting head?

I am truly not that interested in using ImagePrint at all in that case as it will really cost me a lot of money to upgrade from ImagePrint V8 that I have now.

I should be getting my Z9+ printer sometime this week and I will be printing from LR Classic at this time and if needed, my try to get the Mac version of Qimage.

Stephen
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deanwork

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Re: Which one do I choose, and WHY? 24" Canon Pro-2100 or 24" HP Z9+
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2019, 10:01:34 am »

Absolutely. Even the previous models have a capability that only people like us who use them regularly even seem to know about. I can make great profiles on Kozo, uncoated printmaking papers , silk, linen, and just about anything automatically while controlling ink limits  in a few minutes and they are generally more accurate than my X-Rite i1 Pro 2040 patch hand measured equipment that can be quite demanding and a pain.

Why HP didn’t send people around to every art school and ad photographers group in the world is confounding. They started with a big push around 2007 then just went silent. I talk to excellent photographers all the time who had no idea HP was even in the art printing realm. Maybe they promote the Z series more in Europe, but certainly not here in the US. In their little blurb on the new Z9+ they don’t even mention black and white capability. Maybe they consider this still in beta test. Epson has come out with three different systems in that time frame ( too many) and promote the hell out of them.

John





I think HP marketing should be shouting this capability from the roof top, because for the majority of photographers and printmakers who are not and probably don't want to be color management geeks, the Z9+ handles all that color complexity with sheer elegance and grace :)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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