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Author Topic: X1D vs. X1DII  (Read 6290 times)

Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2019, 03:44:31 am »

The Hassy is a nice light landscape camera with good ergonomics which its users appreciate; however quirks which are due to the old sensor used without focal plane shutter preclude fast shooting. I don’t see people complaining.

What is a bit sad about the DPR review is that the reviewers had trouble with portraits. Almost every non-professional photographer wants to do a portrait occasionally with the camera at hand. Vieri can say he NEVER shoots a portrait, because HE is a professional with iron discipline, HE never goes outside his planned project, but for the rest of us there is always a moment when the moment is magical, the camera in our hands says it wants to do a capture, and we give in.

Hasselblad have engineers, and engineers love to solve hard problems. Hassy could solve or at least ameliorate the focus problem in software, eg. by licensing the Panasonic DFD process depth from defocus, which works well on their GH and GF series of cameras.


Edmund

No need for sarcasm Edmund, no need to try and being funny, I might recommend you keep your day job instead :) I never said anything of the sort about me. What I repeatedly said is that I am a professional photographer but, as such, I shoot only Landscape. I also said repeatedly that my conclusions (whether on my blog or here) apply to the kind of shooting I do, and that if someone does a different kind of photography his or her requirements might be different, and so can their choice of equipment.

Incidentally, I definitely shoot the occasional portrait, of course. I actually started working professionally as a photographer shooting people, back in 2005, and did that for 5 years before deciding to dedicate myself exclusively to landscape photography. I worked with musicians, rock / pop / classical, shoot live concerts, and had my work published by various magazines (Rolling Stones, Cosmo, Abitare, etc). I did a lot of street photography too, and my street work got exhibited a few times during thee years. In 2010, I decided I only wanted to do landscape professionally, but that said, I still do take the occasional portraits for friends and the like, sometimes "giving in", as you said, sometimes in more formal settings, with studio lights and so on. I just don't do portrait professionally, meaning I don't do it for money, don't advertise for it, and so on. In my experience, for the occasional portrait the X1D, either I or II, is perfectly fine, AF, speed and all, and if one cannot shoot the occasional portrait with the X1D, either I or II, one should probably chose a different hobby. Professionally, one might love the X1D's portrait rendition, which is superb as far as colour and IQ, and live with its quirks, or one might prefer a different camera, of course, because one values other features higher - no problem with that.

All that said, let's remember how lucky we are to be living today, with such great choice of equipment, and let's not forget the great photographers of the past, who took great images with no AF, no digital, no live view histogram, and so on. To me, all this equipment whining and bashing is just unnecessary and boring. There is so much choice out there, that if one don't like something he should just get something else that suits him better, and go take photos with whatever he chooses.

Best regards,

Vieri
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eronald

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2019, 10:06:30 am »

No need for sarcasm Edmund, no need to try and being funny, I might recommend you keep your day job instead :) I never said anything of the sort about me. What I repeatedly said is that I am a professional photographer but, as such, I shoot only Landscape. I also said repeatedly that my conclusions (whether on my blog or here) apply to the kind of shooting I do, and that if someone does a different kind of photography his or her requirements might be different, and so can their choice of equipment.

Incidentally, I definitely shoot the occasional portrait, of course. I actually started working professionally as a photographer shooting people, back in 2005, and did that for 5 years before deciding to dedicate myself exclusively to landscape photography. I worked with musicians, rock / pop / classical, shoot live concerts, and had my work published by various magazines (Rolling Stones, Cosmo, Abitare, etc). I did a lot of street photography too, and my street work got exhibited a few times during thee years. In 2010, I decided I only wanted to do landscape professionally, but that said, I still do take the occasional portraits for friends and the like, sometimes "giving in", as you said, sometimes in more formal settings, with studio lights and so on. I just don't do portrait professionally, meaning I don't do it for money, don't advertise for it, and so on. In my experience, for the occasional portrait the X1D, either I or II, is perfectly fine, AF, speed and all, and if one cannot shoot the occasional portrait with the X1D, either I or II, one should probably chose a different hobby. Professionally, one might love the X1D's portrait rendition, which is superb as far as colour and IQ, and live with its quirks, or one might prefer a different camera, of course, because one values other features higher - no problem with that.

All that said, let's remember how lucky we are to be living today, with such great choice of equipment, and let's not forget the great photographers of the past, who took great images with no AF, no digital, no live view histogram, and so on. To me, all this equipment whining and bashing is just unnecessary and boring. There is so much choice out there, that if one don't like something he should just get something else that suits him better, and go take photos with whatever he chooses.

Best regards,

Vieri

Well, we have two contradictory views - Vieri is happy, the Dpr guys less so. For myself. I find the color rendering of the Hassy extraordinary, while speed issues can become problematic. I think Hassy should find a way to make the camera more reactive while keeping the image quality, as both points of view have been argued over and over again, and seem together to represent market opinion. Fuji’s monster camera seems to provide such a solution albeit with a large penalty in size and cost which most are not happy with.


Edmund
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 10:18:14 am by eronald »
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2019, 10:40:49 am »

Well, we have two contradictory views - Vieri is happy, the Dpr guys less so. For myself. I find the color rendering of the Hassy extraordinary, while speed issues can become problematic. I think Hassy should find a way to make the camera more reactive while keeping the image quality, as both points of view have been argued over and over again, and seem together to represent market opinion. Fuji’s monster camera seems to provide such a solution albeit with a large penalty in size and cost which most are not happy with.

Edmund

Indeed, two different views. Another difference might be as follows. On the one hand, I have been using two X1D mark I bodies with 4 lenses for over a year to make my living, I brought them all over the world, in sand storms, rainstorms, snowstorms and under heavy sea spray, in temperatures ranging from 40 C heat to -15 C cold, with no problems whatsoever. I have now replaced them with two X1D Mark II which I have been using since they have been available, adding the 135mm as soon as I could get one. So far, I used them in cold / rainy / windy weather only (down to -16 C, this time), no warm weather yet. Both the X1D Mark I and Mark II have given me great results, great image quality, and with both versions I had no problems whatsoever with my cameras. None. I find them to be the best tools for the job, and I find them to be the most enjoyable camera I have ever worked with, and the one outputting the best results. On the other hand, the DPR guy, with all due respect, used a demo body for a whole minute or so and made a video. Albeit - again - I am expert only in using the X1D for landscape photography, and - again - people using it for other purposes might find that other cameras suit them better, I think there is a difference in our relative experience with the camera. I also think that people interested in the camera will be able to see the difference as well, and take my findings and the DPR review findings accordingly.

That said, is the X1D Mark II perfect? Not at all. Do I wish Hasselblad will improve it with FW, or with the release of a future model? Yes, of course I do. Do I whine about it, though? No, I just use it to create images, that's what cameras are for. If I didn't like it, or if I did like a different camera system better for my job, I would just get that camera system and do the same thing: take pictures with it. Incidentally, that's what I did when I moved from the Leica SL to the X1D, resigning from being a Leica Ambassador too (something most people would kill for), and yet you don't see me whine about the SL, even though I definitely like the X1D better.

Best regards,

Vieri
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Bo_Dez

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2019, 09:11:32 am »

blackout is brutal...really, really hard to shoot people with changing expressions or moving through the EVF since there is no telling if you got the moment


1. Blackout. I can shoot continuous frames with my X1D Mark II with no blackout. I see images constantly in the EVF while shooting continuous.

Very much appreciate both of your notes here but for the love of god, which is it?

I'm leaning more towards pschefz because I can't see how Vieri's account has materialised in this iteration.

Can someone please clarify here?
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2019, 11:23:42 am »

Very much appreciate both of your notes here but for the love of god, which is it?

I'm leaning more towards pschefz because I can't see how Vieri's account has materialised in this iteration.

Can someone please clarify here?


Perceptual blackout times (real world):

Hasselblad X1D II 50c - 1 second

Fuji GFX 50s - 1/3 second

Fuji GFX 100 - 1/5 second

Phase One IQ4 150/XF - 1/2 second

Canon 5D MKIV - fast eye blink

We only became Hasselblad dealers after the X1D II, so I do not have an X1D version 1.0 to compare against, but I would presume a bit longer blackout than the X1D II.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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EricWHiss

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2020, 06:53:48 pm »

I took an X1D in on trade from a customer wanting a Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2.   I'm still playing with it. No question there's more of a lag between shutter press and taking the picture even when set to MF than I've ever been accustomed to with the Rolleiflex and for me that's more of a concern than the EVF black out time, however there is one. I'd believe 1 second as Steve reported, but probably not longer.   I don't think anything could have been worse than the older Phase One's DF cameras so if the X1D is 1 second then that must have been 2 seconds.  When I shot the DF, I found that by the time I could see through the viewfinder again, the model the framing and the focus had all changed, but with the X1D it's fast enough that nothing has really changed and I don't think the EVF blackout on the X1D is problematic at all for portraits.  Yeah it's noticeable.  It seems like the issue is mostly with the lenses - you can hear the lens shutter close, stop down, and then open. It's just really slow compared to other leaf shutter lenses that I've used.  I'm not sure why HB has set it up that way.   I do like the X1D a lot, though.
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SrMi

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2020, 10:01:46 pm »

I took an X1D in on trade from a customer wanting a Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2.   I'm still playing with it. No question there's more of a lag between shutter press and taking the picture even when set to MF than I've ever been accustomed to with the Rolleiflex and for me that's more of a concern than the EVF black out time, however there is one. I'd believe 1 second as Steve reported, but probably not longer.   I don't think anything could have been worse than the older Phase One's DF cameras so if the X1D is 1 second then that must have been 2 seconds.  When I shot the DF, I found that by the time I could see through the viewfinder again, the model the framing and the focus had all changed, but with the X1D it's fast enough that nothing has really changed and I don't think the EVF blackout on the X1D is problematic at all for portraits.  Yeah it's noticeable.  It seems like the issue is mostly with the lenses - you can hear the lens shutter close, stop down, and then open. It's just really slow compared to other leaf shutter lenses that I've used.  I'm not sure why HB has set it up that way.   I do like the X1D a lot, though.

Are you confusing the blackout with shutter lag (Steve reported 1 sec blackout, not shutter lag)? The shutter lag is the time from pressing the shutter until you hear the first clank.
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BobShaw

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2020, 10:57:45 pm »

I am not sure what the shutter lag is but I think that you can work around it. This is an original X1D.
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araucaria

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2020, 09:50:33 am »

Do the hasselblads have the same microlens gap as the fuji gfx 50? I really want a small MF camera but the microlens gap is a dealbreaker for me.
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pschefz

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2020, 06:14:29 pm »

I am not sure what the shutter lag is but I think that you can work around it. This is an original X1D.
not sure this is a good example, the more you control the situation, the less shutter lag matters...
i don't think anyone discusses blackout or shutter lag when shooting 4x5:)
and for anyone coming from the H system (or any other MF system) the experience with the X should be ok...
it all depends what it is compared to....
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BobShaw

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2020, 10:12:15 pm »

not sure this is a good example, the more you control the situation, the less shutter lag matters...
I am not sure what "control the situation" means.
I had a tennis ball in my left hand and shutter release in my right.
True, though, if speed is your need then MF is not for you.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2020, 08:58:39 am »

Hi,

There is shutter lag, viewfinder lag and viewfinder black out. Those are different things.

  • Shutter lag can make you to miss action.
  • Viewfinder lag may make you point the camera in the wrong direction! :-(
  • Viewfinder black out is just a nuissance.

A landscape photographer may for instance shoot waves rolling in. The photographer doesn't need to view the wave trough the viewfinder. Shutter lag is often all what matters in that use case.

The sensor cannot feed data to the viewfinder while it is read out. During readout, the sensor is essentially dead and the shutter is normally closed during readout. The camera can show an image saved just before shutter was caused, just to hide the black out.

The new 100 MP sensor has half the readout time for twice the data. So, it needs a 4X faster processor but can yield half the black out time.

SLR technology still has some advantages over EVF.

Best regards
Erik


I am not sure what the shutter lag is but I think that you can work around it. This is an original X1D.
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DP

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2020, 11:19:38 am »

The sensor cannot feed data to the viewfinder while it is read out.

only in the mode with the closed shutter blades - how do you think video is otherwise working...
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pschefz

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2020, 10:58:11 pm »

I am not sure what "control the situation" means.
I had a tennis ball in my left hand and shutter release in my right.
True, though, if speed is your need then MF is not for you.
exactly...you decided when the ball was going to go into the water....
with people or portraits that means if you are able to direct the scene, telling them where and when and what to do, the x should work fine...and I would probably shoot manual focus as well...
if you are running around, following people, people moving, even if it is within a predefined area or scene, the shutter lag combined with slow AF and blackout make things very difficult....
In a portrait or fashion session it comes down to anticipation and the right flow...but again the shutter lag combined with slow af and blackout takes some getting used to....
for landscape I don’t see a real issue...
going to the hasselblad we site and looking at the stories, the examples speak for themselves...
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2020, 06:34:25 am »

...

The camera can show an image saved just before shutter was caused, just to hide the black out.

...

Best regards
Erik

Thank you for that, Erik!

I guess this is what the X1D II does, and together with the fastest processing, it effectively gives you the impression of no black out during continuous shooting - you always see something on the EVF.

Back to the discussion, I never shoot action, so I don't know whether the camera is suitable for that or not but, as many said in this thread (and elsewhere) if speed is your thing then MF is probably not the best choice for you. That doesn't mean MF can't be used for fast moving subjects, after all people used to shoot the olympics with manual focus film cameras. It's just that in today's market we have so many great choices and so much gear designed to do the most diverse things, that there definitely are better choices for that.

Generally speaking, I think that either:

- better choice of gear for any given purpose;
- more practice, and therefore better technique;

or both, would improve people's photography more than endless forum whining about why a camera doesn't do what one wishes it to do, rather than what it is designed to do.

Best regards,

Vieri
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eronald

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2020, 09:25:01 pm »

On the X1D, the first click closes the shutter, the second exposes, the third reopens/rearms. It would be interesting to simply know what the lag is on the new X1DII, how long after shutter press the exposing second click occurs. 

I would agree with Vieri that whining is useless. But knowing the precise abilities or limitations of a camera helps. Informing a camera manufacturer about desired features also sometimes helps, as some manufacturers improve the firmware and release perfected models.

Edmund

Thank you for that, Erik!

I guess this is what the X1D II does, and together with the fastest processing, it effectively gives you the impression of no black out during continuous shooting - you always see something on the EVF.

Back to the discussion, I never shoot action, so I don't know whether the camera is suitable for that or not but, as many said in this thread (and elsewhere) if speed is your thing then MF is probably not the best choice for you. That doesn't mean MF can't be used for fast moving subjects, after all people used to shoot the olympics with manual focus film cameras. It's just that in today's market we have so many great choices and so much gear designed to do the most diverse things, that there definitely are better choices for that.

Generally speaking, I think that either:

- better choice of gear for any given purpose;
- more practice, and therefore better technique;

or both, would improve people's photography more than endless forum whining about why a camera doesn't do what one wishes it to do, rather than what it is designed to do.

Best regards,

Vieri
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pschefz

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2020, 10:32:37 pm »

Thank you for that, Erik!

I guess this is what the X1D II does, and together with the fastest processing, it effectively gives you the impression of no black out during continuous shooting - you always see something on the EVF.

Back to the discussion, I never shoot action, so I don't know whether the camera is suitable for that or not but, as many said in this thread (and elsewhere) if speed is your thing then MF is probably not the best choice for you. That doesn't mean MF can't be used for fast moving subjects, after all people used to shoot the olympics with manual focus film cameras. It's just that in today's market we have so many great choices and so much gear designed to do the most diverse things, that there definitely are better choices for that.

Generally speaking, I think that either:

- better choice of gear for any given purpose;
- more practice, and therefore better technique;

or both, would improve people's photography more than endless forum whining about why a camera doesn't do what one wishes it to do, rather than what it is designed to do.

Best regards,

Vieri
i really don't know what camera you have ...the X1DII when shooting continuous has no image at all in the EVF....there is no flashing image (like in the GFX) its just black....i believe that i shot with the latest firmware and the hasselblad rep confirmed that this is actually a choice hasselblad made since the flashing images do not really reflect the actual files (i used to own  GFX and agree....the flashing images do not seem to reflect the actual captures)
we can agree or disagree if this solution is good or not, but (unless hasselblad has changed this with firmware since december 2019) there is no image in the EVF when shooting continuous....
I have repeatedly stated that i don't see much of a problem with any of this when shooting landscapes or even static objects...
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Gigi

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2020, 10:41:26 pm »

Generally speaking, I think that either:

- better choice of gear for any given purpose;
- more practice, and therefore better technique;

or both, would improve people's photography more than endless forum whining about why a camera doesn't do what one wishes it to do, rather than what it is designed to do.

definitely old school! :)
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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2020, 10:49:43 pm »

On the X1D, the first click closes the shutter, the second exposes, the third reopens/rearms. It would be interesting to simply know what the lag is on the new X1DII, how long after shutter press the exposing second click occurs. 

I would agree with Vieri that whining is useless. But knowing the precise abilities or limitations of a camera helps. Informing a camera manufacturer about desired features also sometimes helps, as some manufacturers improve the firmware and release perfected models.

Edmund
the X1DII works the same way and I don't have the tools to measure exactly but shutter lag is very noticeable....i can't remember the last time i shot with a camera where between slow AF, shutter lag and black out, there really is a certain disconnect...it really is something to get used to....
it is hard to describe because obviously we are not talking about 2 seconds but there just isn't a camera i know of that comes close...the obvious comparison is the GFX but the only thing slowing the GFX down is AF....i haven't noticed shutter lag or black out....all other FF mirrorless might have some measurable shutterlag and or black out but i just never noticed....with the X1D and DII it is front and center....just like the great EVF, look and feel and rear LCD....
I mentioned before: i compared the X1DII directly to my RX1RII and shot both side by side...I shoot the RX1RII side by side with A7RIII all the time and it shows its age when it comes to overall shooting speed....mostly AF and capture speed (and image review) but it is simply way faster then the X1DII...no comparison....
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eronald

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Re: X1D vs. X1DII
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2020, 05:05:06 am »

the X1DII works the same way and I don't have the tools to measure exactly but shutter lag is very noticeable....i can't remember the last time i shot with a camera where between slow AF, shutter lag and black out, there really is a certain disconnect...it really is something to get used to....
it is hard to describe because obviously we are not talking about 2 seconds but there just isn't a camera i know of that comes close...the obvious comparison is the GFX but the only thing slowing the GFX down is AF....i haven't noticed shutter lag or black out....all other FF mirrorless might have some measurable shutterlag and or black out but i just never noticed....with the X1D and DII it is front and center....just like the great EVF, look and feel and rear LCD....
I mentioned before: i compared the X1DII directly to my RX1RII and shot both side by side...I shoot the RX1RII side by side with A7RIII all the time and it shows its age when it comes to overall shooting speed....mostly AF and capture speed (and image review) but it is simply way faster then the X1DII...no comparison....

Paradoxically, “real” ie. legacy MF and LF cameras don’t have that much of a lag - the worst I used was the Hassy, with about 1/3s, still better than many AF SLRs, and the 1920s  large format film plane cameras I used as a kid had fairly  low lag (Compur), and totally incredible image quality. My screwthread Leica’s fell somewhere in between, maybe 1/10s as the button went down and the shutter overcame inertia. Cartier Bresson’s work shows how useful a low lag can be even when not shooting sports.

I think the Hassy is a great camera, and I’m sure that as sales spool up they will bring out a fast version. Even now it could probably be used superfast with the shutter pre-cocked and an optical shoe mount finder. It just lacks the built-in optical finder of the Xpan.

Edmund
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